Looks like dodged a bullet. Bought a fresh breeding for 2015. Trailered mare 4 hours to vet hospital; exam showed she was ready for next day insemination. I already notified SO breeding was imminent. Sent her text and email, early morning her time, day before semen needed. Waiting on shipping info rest of day. Finally get text at 6:30pm my time, she was unable to collect. Capone I was sick, I was told. Caught it from horses returning from show. I was pissed!! I had to scramble to find substitute. Senior mare was not a good frozen candidate. Jennifer Arnoldt saved my bacon!! Never heard from SO again. Shortly after, I lost bred mare to sudden death (heart attack or embolism). Never followed up with Capone’s owner, as that was my only jumper broodmare.
Very sorry for all of you that were deceived. I would be out of my mind. You can try to find any form of performance on the dame side of this other stallion, but the stallion you thought you were breeding to was from the direct line of Casall, one of the very best in Holstein. There is no comparing between both. This new stallion is saddly no one, and has no dame line at all. I very much doubt this could be negligence, not on that scale. It could happen that doses of fresh were switched once if both stallions were collected on the same day. But seven times… and with a stallion as popular as Capone… Its seems almost impossible to me. I doubt this other stallion, if at the same stable as Capone, would have 7 mares scheduled on purpose and even if he did, it would imply that the doses were mixed every single times? It is a very sad situation.
It happened in the past with Lucky Boy and Grannus, and rumours exists about a couple of other stallions, but it was in a time where foals were not DNA tested. It was also generally with stallions with some kind of quality, not like this one. How could anyone think they would not get caught now that almost all registries do DNA testing is beyon me.
Can anyone having issues with this and the SO please contact me by PM? I am shocked to find this thread this morning since I was already organizing a lawsuit against the SO myself. I have no doubt this was intentional when putting the pieces together with my experience and those I’ve others I’ve spoken to. She should not be allowed to get away with this, action needs to be taken. I’m going ahead with legal action but if anyone else wants to join in that would be great, or at least share info.
I have a Capone 1/Cartel foal born this year from a fresh breeding. I have sent several of you messages already, but if I missed anyone, please do contact me via private message.
Does anyone read their PM’s on here???
i forwarded your info to my friend who I initiated this post for. She wasn’t a mare owner, she bought a foal from a reputable Breeder and they were both shocked by the DNA result.
Anyone starting to wonder if Capone 1 is still alive? Since only his frozen semen seems to be legit? This has gotten a lot bigger than I thought it would.
Following as I’m a lawyer in B.C. and interested in the outcome.
In my opinion the stallion is still alive but has been unable to collect for a very long time. I have screenshots of SO telling someone in 2015 that the stallion was “suffering” and ill and no longer able to collect, frozen only. YET this is the same year she took my money for a fresh LFG contract (my mare was not a candidate for frozen and this was one of the main reasons I chose him).
Then I have 3 years of vet bills prepping mare for breeding, calling for collections, and every time being given a last minute excuse why no collection was available. I was irate obviously. Demanded at least a refund on this very expensive stud fee and the right thing to do would have been to pay some/all of my vet bills, which by now are thousands of $$. Instead I was offered ONE dose of frozen. SO told me that his frozen was a 3 straw dose and get this - that EACH straw was priced at $1000!. So one frozen dose she said was $3000 and therefore suitable compensation for the $2500 fresh contract. When I basically told her she was nuts she told me I didn’t “appreciate” her generous offer and “frozen is no longer available to you”. And then that the contract had “expired”.
Did you know that she also charges a $500 “renewal” fee each year on a fresh contract? So for years has been getting that money in from mare owners as well, KNOWING that her stallion could not collect.
I believe I did not get the Cartel fresh semen as I’d already threatened legal action and she was afraid to try that one on me. But I am 100% convinced that anyone that got fresh semen from her this season at the very least, got Cartel semen as I don’t believe Capone can collect or if he does then the semen is not viable.
Am I the only one thinking this whole story is very sad? You have a stallion owner who stood one of the best stallion available in North America for quite a long time. She has been involved in the industry for long enough that she must have known that it would get known very rapidly. From the beginning there was absolutely no possible way she would get away with it. In the end I agree it was all very dishonnest, and probably a case of fraud, plain and simple. However I keep wondering in what kind of trouble or distress someone like that must be to consider this solution when she must have known it would destroy her business and her reputation.
Considering this SO’s history with this stallion, his previous owner and other “things”, the loss of this “cash cow”/stallion’s breeding viability must be a blow to the pocket book. A replacement must be found. Can DNA tests detect clones?
No comments from the SO or broker? Everyone is very silent?
Oh good grief, I can’t imagine someone who feels a “blow” with the loss of a handful of fresh breedings a year is going to go out and get a horse cloned, raise the clone to breeding age, and also keep it all a secret so they can pass it off as the original and get five or ten fresh breedings a year in North America. DNA tests cannot detect clones, as the clone’s genetic material being passed on is identical to that of the original. But it’s actually insane to imagine that getting the stallion (especially this stallion, not like he’s an olympic champion or in massive demand worldwide) cloned would be worth it; if the stallion owner had that kind of money lying around they could simply go import a new stallion (or two). This is such a weird personal conspiracy theory to be devoted to.
I agree with you on most part. It would not be profitable to clone the horse only to use the clone as a stallion. However, from the last numbers I have seen, and they already date back a bit, it would be much cheaper to clone a horse like Capone than it would be to purchase it at the peack of its career, or even as a promising young horse. Cloning is no longer science fiction and we will probably have to get use to it rapidly.
Normally, I would completely agree. But in this horse’s case, truth has generally been stranger than fiction. Wouldn’t put anything out of the realm of possibility.
Thank-you to everyone who have reached out to me regarding Cartell and the confusion regarding breedings.
Last Season brought a very dark time for me resulting in my decision to step
away from the breeding shed for the first time in twelve years. During this time a dear friend stepped in to help carry on. In my absence Capone’s son Cartell was collected in error.
I am working closely one on one with my clients to turn this into the most positive situation possible. I can’t thank these fabulous mare owners enough for their understanding.
Capone is retired from outside breedings. I will continue to work with him and with my clients with a Cartell.
Wishing you all light and love,
Corinne Super
“Thank-you to everyone who have reached out to me regarding Cartell and the confusion regarding breedings”?: With their lawyers, you mean?
“Capone is retired from outside breedings”: Does this mean fresh semen only? Does this mean his frozen is no longer available to outside mares? / He can no longer provide fresh semen? Will he not be marketed this year with the registries…as you say “I will continue to work with HIM”…?
IF you are marketing Capone this year and advertising him with the registries, could you please refrain from using my photography in your ads. You know where you got it from. Consequently, I have seen MO’s using my photography unknowingly in their own marketing ads online and who knows where else. When you stole my intellectual property for monetary gain with your stud fees, it became a domino effect when other breeders used my photography in THEIR ads. Either you can compensate me along with your Cartel fiasco bunch or I can follow up with the law pertaining the copyright acts and stealing intellectual property… which is something you should acquaint yourself with: https://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/cipointernet-internetopic.nsf/eng/h_wr02281.html
You can PM me here.
Little threatening, much?
Foxtrot, in this era of brainwashing political correctness and “niceness” at all costs, did that feel good to judge and retaliate to my statements? As they say, walk a mile in my shoes. Has it not occurred to you that many people have walked a path you know nothing about. Judging by the length of this thread, there is a lot of curiosity and justice seekers contributing here. You find their posts threatening when they state they have hired a lawyer to straighten this issue out with the SO? My issue with copyrights pales in comparison but it is not a threat either.
Oh I’m sorry. There’s no quote to indicate whose post you are referring to. I was assuming, like you…
What a disgrace! What? No apology?!? If this is really the case of blaming it on someone else, then your “dear friend who collected Cartel in error” instead of Capone needs to come forward and take ownership here. Who is this dear friend stallion collector major error creator? Who is it?
This problem with getting Capone semen also existed back in the 2015 breeding season according to people here, not just 2016 as you say. How could your “dear friend” accidentally collect Cartel instead of Capone ALL BREEDING SEASON LONG?? This was not just one “oops”, but many many many collection “errors”. All breeding season long! And how does this even occur without anyone else noticing? Over and over, all summer long. Your barn does not have stall name plates and halters don’t have name tags? Weren’t there other people were around all summer long when your “dear friend” collected “Capone”…the barn was 100% empty and this person was just collection your stallion all by them self? All breeding season long?
When the 2018 foals Capone foals hit the ground, it’s going to be interesting to see how many are by Cartel. What a coincidence that Capone is now “retired from outside breedings”. Since when? Did any mare owners think they bred to him 2017 breeding season? Was “dear friend” also the stallion collector?
Seriously, how could you let someone so incompetent collect “Capone”? Wait, I mean Cartel. No, Capone. I mean, I mean…wait, which stallion is it again??? OH, The Black One!
And what about the mare owner (mentioned by Tanderson) who’s vet received fresh semen labelled “Cartel”? I am sure they contacted you way back then. Following that “error”, did you reach out to all the mare owners back then and let them know that there was potential for a semen error? How many more “wrong” doses of semen were shipped out after that date?
If “dear friend” was able to read the name and shipping address on the breeding contract correctly, package the semen correctly, actually execute the shipment of the semen…why wasn’t he/she able to read the name of the stallion on the contract or figure out which stallion was which?? (at least one mare owner received collection appears to have been labelled “Cartel” THAT right there indicates that someone knew which stallion was collected, and it wasn’t Capone.
I seriously doubt that mare owners are “understanding”. “Light and love”, my ash!
WELL, according to your breeding contract, it looks like you might owe every mare owner that was ripped off in “error” with Cartel semen, some frozen semen from Capone. AND, good thing you offer a live foal guarantee for Capone, too!
http://www.nolimitfarms.com/wp-conte…tract-2016.pdf
"10. Unavailability of Stallion. If the stallion dies, becomes unfit for service, or is sold before the mare is serviced and settles, No Limit Farm may, in its sole discretion, provide that stallion’s frozen semen"
6. Re-breeding rights (“live foal guarantee”). We offer a so-called “live foal” guarantee that is designed to be simple, straightforward, and easy for mare owners to use. After you have booked and paid for your breeding for the 2016 breeding season, you may re-breed your mare as many times as necessary in 2016 to get her in foal and properly settled. Remember that each shipment incurs a $300 shipping fee plus the FedEx charge; being accurate in the timing of your semen order is critical and will save you money. If you come to the end of the 2016 breeding season and your mare is still not settled, we will carry forward your breeding into 2017 and will only ask that you pay a new booking fee for the 2017 season (our booking fee is $500). You need not pay the balance of the breeding fee again, even if the price of the stallion’s breeding goes up in 2017. Additionally, if your mare aborts her foal during the winter of 2016/2017, you can rebreed her again in 2017 simply by paying the booking (and shipping) fee; no need to pay the breeding fee again. Once you have had a live foal, our breeding agreement is completed and no special rates for re-breeding are guaranteed. However, in the past if a mare owner loses a foal during or shortly after birth, we generally offer substantial discounts to re-breed that mare in the following season, as we know how heartbreaking this scenario is for everyone involved.
Remember that proper veterinary oversight of the process from your end will greatly increase the chances of getting your mare in foal quickly, safely, cost-effectively, and easily. We do everything possible to ship the best quality extended semen possible, from there it is up to you, your mare, and your vet! Don’t frustrate yourself by guessing as to when to breed your mare; with proper ultrasound protocol and veterinary oversight, conception rates for healthy mares using fresh-cooled semen are 90+%. If your mare “misses” two times in a row even after proper management, we suggest you consider a uterine biopsy as it is likely there is a problem other than timing. However, as always work with your properly trained reproductive vet!"
The first step in successful breeding is working with an honest and competent stallion owner who possesses a high degree of integrity and ethics, followed by working with a properly trained stallion collector who can see, read, and hear the correct name of a stallion, every single day of breeding season, every single collection!..And if you don’t have those two things, then mare owners end up getting scammed and someone does a switch-a-roo on the stallion semen. But maybe no one will notice because the stallions are the same color and have similar DNA. Unsuspecting mare owners end up wasting money, time, and their mare’s precious fertile years, only to end up with some 1/4 arab foal who likely does not have the value of a Capone foal.
