Dude, then no one ever in the world has “done it themselves.” We have seen this on multiple threads recently, this it doesn’t count because they had trainers. Everyone has trainers. Please name me someone who has made it to the top without a trainer. One, just one.
Even Alec had a trainer.
I don’t know a professional rider who doesn’t have a trainer or five.
I do not understand why Mardi, if as you ultimately say, everyone has trainers and support then how is this girl bad but other riders are good? She didn’t earn it but? who? Charlotte did? People saying ISABEL WERTH didn’t earn it? As the short chubby girl of the dressage world, Isabel surely earned it. She had to impress people with money to get rides. A short “chubby” German girl? How good do you think Isabel had to be to even get into the game, let alone set the world on fire?
Is there an appropriate level of misery one has to endure before people are ok with success? Because most of these top riders haven’t endured misery, they’ve just worked really hard.
You have completely misconstrued what I wrote. It was a reply to a post from someone who admires CJ very much for her accomplishments, of which there are many. But there seemed to be no recognition of the people behind her achievements… the trainers, God bless 'em, who help ALL of us. Why is it a problem to recognize them ?
I never said CJ was “bad” and I have nothing against her (see first two sentences of my opening post). I enjoyed watching her and Akeem at a recent show, where he looked great. My concerns are not about her personally and her choices (although I was disappointed to see Vitalis go back to Europe). She does as she pleases.
My concern is about the sport and the mixed message from the coaches about the system to get to the top.
CJ’s purchase just happened to bring it to a head. It’s curious that there has been no official response from the coaches about the purchase…
Can you unpack this statement a bit? I still don’t understand how what CJ is doing differs from what basically every other rider is doing? What is there to comment on in this situation?
Yes, ladyj79, my questions exactly. I’m sorry Mardi, it seems like you are trying to walk it back because it’s not how you meant your question, but your OP did sound like sour grapes. Those of us out here “in the trenches” know darned well how much it costs to get to that level. And we know we likely never will. I don’t believe there is a “mixed message” from the coaches as to how to get to the top. Rather, I think the “pipeline” concept is to augment the usual routes to stardom. As has been said many times on this thread and others, you can spend all the money in the world on the best horses in the world, but if you don’t have the skills you aren’t going anywhere.
I know personally four trainers here locally who got their medals on made horses. There is always the grousing crowd who says they “bought” them, but at the end of the day, if they couldn’t ride they couldn’t have done it. I also know that every one of those four people have since made several GP horses each, so they DID have the chops. There are so many good trainers hereabouts that at this point if you don’t have your USDF medals, you aren’t going to do much business.
I’m glad Lorenzo is coming to the US. Whether CJ achieves her goals with him or not, is immaterial. We have yet another good weapon in our arsenal on the world stage. I can’t find fault with that.
(FWIW, my own coach, a USET member bought her current campaigner as a youngster and has brought that horse up the levels to international competition. Those trainers still exist.)
I just want to note that this is where we started. We started by stating she thought she could buy her way to WEG, ahead of much better riders, and that the horse would do all the work. This thread did not begin innocuously, it began quite negatively.
And does it matter who she trains with? Many riders train with people of different nationalities. Rodrigo is going to be chef d’equip for Ireland and I’m super psyched about it. I am sure there are some Irish people grumbling right now that they didn’t hire an Irish person, but the goal is to put together competitive teams and WIN. I’m sure CJ is training with the people she thinks will best advance her riding career.
It’s ok to just dislike someone for no good reason. It’s even OK to say I don’t like her because she sounds cocky. You don’t have to try to justify it by pointing out what? That she is doing the same thing most top riders do these days. It is a very different world in US dressage than the era of Hilda and Keen.
This is about the rider and horse, not the trainer…? so I’m not sure what you need here. Many/a lot of these top GP riders are trainers themselves, and have different help at different times. there are a lot of regional aspects to this, too.
who cares where the horse came from? does it matter? I think American dressage looks like it’s on an upswing lately, so I’m happy there are investments made in horses.
If the US team is to be on the medal podium, it takes a huge village: sponsors, trainers, vets, etc plus a very, very good rider and a very, very talented horse. This all translates into $. Actually lots of $. And it takes time to develop said riders and said horses. It takes time for rider and horse to develop a partnership. And it takes luck for all the stars to align.
Adrienne Lyle is now back in the GP ring with a new partner. Horse was bought in Europe 2 yrs ago, FEI level but “green” to GP. It was announced clearly in the press releases that he was to be her Olympic hopeful. It was also stated that the syndicate hoped to set an example for how our riders could get access to the best horses. Adrienne is also now the rider of a lovely small tour mare that was brought part way up the levels by other trainers. http://www.eurodressage.com/equestrian/2015/05/12/american-syndicate-acquires-sandronnerhall-adrienne-lyle
This should not be a surprise to anyone that our top riders aren’t just starting 4 yr olds and hoping that all will work perfectly.
And the rest of us riders most of whom would never get to that level, should focus on our own positives. This sport is hard, and sometimes heartbreaking. Horses get sick or get hurt, we have to all roll with the punches.
Do I envy these riders? Yes. I also envy people who can sing (hopeless there) or play an instrument at the top of their specific discipline. But that is different than begrudging them the success.
It’s not really a mixed message; as the saying goes, “there are many roads to Rome.”
As I said before, the “pipeline” is not the ONLY way to get on a team, in fact it is not the way to get on a team at all, it is a method of recognizing and developing previously-unrecognized horses and riders and guiding them so that the US has a wider and deeper selection of combinations from which to choose future team members. Actual team selection is still via qualification or selection trials.
If someone can go out and buy a horse with which they can become a successful combination, then good for them, they will then join the list of those being watched for consideration, and they will add to the pool of talent. If someone else has to start at the bottom and work up, then that’s their “road to Rome” that will hopefully also put them on the list to watch.
As long as the successful combinations are being noticed, recognized, and considered for placement on teams, who cares where they came from? At least now there are people doing the searching.
Leave Mardi alone and stop making assumptions about what she does or does not think. She started an interesting thread that brings out a lot of what is right and wrong in dressage.
2tempe–Thanks for the link on Adrienne’s new horse. Akiko is a lovely rider and beat the pants off me on Chopin at the last championships. She has a lot of money and is buying really nice horses, some for herself, and some for Steffen and other people. I think a lot of us would like to see more super rich people like this (CJ) not only use that extreme wealth for herself, but to do what Akiko does, and give more talented some top horses to ride. So, CJ has four/five top horses? Maybe for her own sake compete the one she likes the best, and use that talent to give some other people a ride. I was thinking that as I saw the WC in Sweden (?) she went to. She went on a top horse, but didn’t have the experience to do what she could with him. Guenter went on a very talented green international horse, and did a phenomenal job doing the best he could with them. Hey, why not give the ride on one of her extra horse to Geunter so we have a stronger presence? I think that would change how people are thinking about this.
Maybe turn this into praise for Akiko and her great accomplishments in helping bring up US dressage with the resources she has, where she not only competes phenomenal horses herself (and gets to ride Ravel for fun!) but she is really helping the whole US sport. European riders have man, many supporters like this. Imagine if our riders had the support that people like Isabel have? She can pick from any one of many top horses she has.
The rest of us are just doing the best we can with what we have and enjoying our journey.
Calm down there Cowgirl, no one is picking on anyone. People can disagree politely, as we are doing here, or ask people to clarify their position. Because this is a discussion board.
I’m TTP, not cowgirl! I’m not all excited, but there is a bit of a pick on Mardi thing going on. I think we all clarify and interpret our positions as others bring in new ideas, so her modifying her position from her original statement seems perfectly legitimate to me.
This is a discussion board, so I’m telling you how this is coming across to me. I think it’s a very interesting and appropriate discussion, and all opinions are legitimate.
Why? No one asks Gal or Minderhoud or Hester to give up any of their strings. Because terrible things happen, and you better have a back up. Or more than one back up. I remember that awesome week where I moved states, had a new “highly recommended” farrier and then four lame horses. And I’m not trying to qualify for anything.
You have to have a string, because things are going to happen in sport. Horses get hurt or sick or just don’t work out.
As someone said earlier, no one asks why any of the boys don’t hand off horses from their strings. And there was a whole article recently about Charlotte’s up and coming string. I haven’t heard anyone suggest Charlotte hand off her horses to other riders. Horses get handed off when they aren’t working out where they are, when they get older, or when the hypothetical sales price that every horse has is met.
How can it both be interesting and appropriate when your previous post claimed Mardi was “being picked on”? Asking someone to clarify their position, because as I said, I need the clarification because I am confused between her first post which is clearly derogatory, and her later posts which are much more metered.
Just like I am telling you it confuses me that in one post you claim someone is being picked on and the next you say it is an interesting and appropriate discussion?
Quoting people is not picking on them. Asking for clarification is not picking on anyone. Disagreeing is not picking on you.
This is also why I said it’s ok to just kind of viscerally dislike people because they rub us wrong; we are human. But that is different from a reasoned argument (argument here in the classical sense, not a disagreement)
ladyj79–I did not say that. I said, "Leave Mardi alone and stop making assumptions about what she does or does not think. " I am glad you are saying you just wanted clarification and not saying she’s wrong. Since I didn’t say anything about being picked on, I hope you are no longer confused about why I say it’s an interesting discussion.
As for why doesn’t CJ “share” some of her rides? I disagree that this doesn’t happens to the big boys. [I]I know Edward, Hans and Carl do this. Edward started getting his rides from Anky, Hans Peter, too, as well as from Edward. Carl has the best horse in the world in his yard and gave the yard to CD. So, it actually happens all of the time. I know when I spoke Jan Brink at the WC way back when, he was starting to give his rides to talented riders like Minne Tilde. I’m sure there are quite a few more than that, but I just don’t know about them.
And there are many reasons why you would give a ride to someone else. Robert and Debbie both came to a point where doing that level of riding was too much for their body, and Guenter had to back off for a long time to heal from injury. And then of course, there’s the match between horse and rider. You really may only knick with a few. So, again, I ask, rather than just let these super talented, super trained horses sit in the barn, why not give them to a rider who can do better, works with them better, can promote them better as a stallion, or whatever? Since the problem in the US is we do have a lot of talented riders without the top horses, this would seem one of the good things you can do for the sport, besides having a great ride yourself. [/I]
I think she draws animosity because she gives the appearance that she “bought” her way to the top. She’s one of the few top American dressage riders that can afford to fund her own string of talented horses and because of that some may feel she that she’s not worthy of her success because she hasn’t “earned” a sponsor like Steffen, or Adrienne, or hasn’t gone from rags to riches like Laura (whom I’m sure will have a slew of wealthy sponsors knocking at her door once Diddy is retired). I suppose it doesn’t help when she purchases an Olympic proven horse and then proclaims that she is trying to qualify for WEG. It seems like other successful, wealthy riders like Tuny Page don’t seem to get as much hate.
Like others have said, money will only get you so far and she’s obviously a good rider to have the success she’s had. It’ll be interesting to see where this pair goes from here.
Yeah, if a particular horse works better for another rider, and you have a deep string, sure. Or as with most of your examples, people got old and/or beat up and the horse has to move on. Whereas Valegro was not the “best horse in the world” when Carl gave the ride over to Charlotte. He was nice, and Carl liked him, but the horse was not well-regarded at all. They paid what? 5k for him? Charlotte got the ride because like many many young people in the industry, she got her start riding at a “bigger” rider’s yard, where Valegro was a developing horse.
But just declaring someone has enough horses and should give them to other riders doesn’t happen. Also, that is kind of what has happened here isn’t it? The horse was hit or miss where he was, and so he was sold to another rider. I remember last year people were furious Isabel ended up with another horse (and someone lost the ride). And in my little world people complained that Stephan Barka got his Olympic horse, that Rodrigo lost and then got back a particular horse, that Doda lost his Olympic horse, and so on and so forth.
I think every time a horse changes hands, there is a contingent who is unhappy. It’s just the way of the world of competitive horse sport.
So why not give Charlotte the opportunity to see if she clicks with Lorenzo? Rather than declaring she has enough nice horses and should let someone else have him. If the partnership doesn’t work, I expect he will be back on the market, because not many internationally competitive riders hang on to horses they aren’t successful with.
I’m not suggesting SJ give the ride on Lorenzo to another rider. I’m sorry I’m not up on all of the names–Akeem, Nintendo? If she knicks with Lorenzo and she has these two world class horses standing by, why not give the ride to someone else? I’m assuming she thinks her other horses won’t take her to where she wants to go, thus she bought this horse.
Yes, CD started Valegro as a young horse, but he was Carl’s horse. He could have easily taken over the ride. Why did he leave him with Charlotte? I’m sure he could have done just as well on him. I think it’s more than just him having a ride for the top competitions.
As I said, I think the people who don’t think so much of CJ would change if she used her resources more in this way. Of course she doesn’t have to, but that’s where my thoughts go, as do I think a lot of other people. And I know a lot of people would have liked to see that stallion she hd stay here. Was her not right for her? Why not give him to a more appropriate rider and have the esteem of being able to own a top campaigning stallion as well as promote US dressage and talent?
You literally have to have more than one or two horses. Laura Graves is beyond lucky this day and age, but now she also has a top trainer and sponsors and is “in the system”. Rest assured at this time she has access to more horses.
Carl Hester liked the way Charlotte and Valegro clicked. Now Dujardin has I think seven? up and coming horses. Hester also has a handful of developing horses.
Minderhoud was VERY LUCKY he had not one but two back up horses qualified for the Dutch Olympic team this past cycle.
Why should Charlotte Jorst not be allowed to ride the horse she purchased to see if they will be successful?
Why do you think a more developing rider like Jorst should “use her resources” by giving them to other riders right now? Nintendo is 14 now. Akeem is 15? 16? Lorenzo is 11.
As someone who has worked for a developing rider from a close knit circle of Olympians, we had one top horse my rider developed from age 4 to the Grand Prix level, a young horse, and a “project”. We were very lucky with the one top horse, she qualified 4 for 4 grand prixs, and placed in 3 of 3, winning one. But because he’s developing his business he sold his top horse for a lot of money, which he invested in several young horses, and one going grand prix horse, because he presumed he would then not lose any time. So he sold one top horse who worked for him. And bought one top horse who was an unmitigated giant disaster. Beyond a disaster. We literally left her at the one and only CSI we took her to. And he was left with only developing horses, and a giant financial hole. When you start thinking you can just have one good horse, that’s when they go lame. When you think it’s easy peasy to match a top horse and rider, that’s when you end up with nothing.
I think it was a good time to sell Lorenzo, and a good time for probably many riders to buy this caliber of horse.
I don’t expect any rider to give up a good horse just so other people have a chance. It’s a business. That doesn’t make any fiscal sense. It does make sense to sell him if it’s not a good match.
I also want to add that Jorst isn’t really young anymore. Like, we only have so much time in this sport. It can be especially pressing when one hasn’t been to WEG or the Olympics, when there are so many younger riders these days who have “made it.”
My rider is 38, and you can rest assured he feels the pressure.
lady–You have your opinion, and I get your have your view of how your friend is going through things. Way back when I had a friend on the edge of the Olympics, too, with top horses. One was sold, and the other didn’t quite make it.
I can see you clearly feel CJ should “keep” all of these horses. I am giving you another opinion, and I think it’s shared by many people. I don’t see your point in her other horses being 14 and 15. It seems a perfect age to allow someone else the ride she is not going to ride them, just as Steffen and Akiko gave the ride of Legolas to another younger, up and coming rider.
We clearly have different views of this. If it is a business, maybe she should sell these rides. If it’s not a business, as with Akiko, then maybe she should think of expanding her influence since she is so fortunate.
I’m not all excited, but there is a bit of a pick on Mardi thing going on. I think we all clarify and interpret our positions as others bring in new ideas, so her modifying her position from her original statement seems perfectly legitimate to me.