Charlotte Jorst buys Lorenzo - which pipeline did they come through ?

[dudleyc]

@Caol Ila

Was there this much angst when Half Moon Delphi was sold from the Eilbergs’ yard to an American rider as a Rio Olympic hopeful (and as far as I remember, didn’t end up competing in Rio)? Or when Painted Black moved from Anky to Morgan Barbancon? Well, there probably was.

Top horses move around all the time. It’s what happens. You still have to be able to ride the things and just because it was a top international horse under one rider doesn’t mean the new rider will have anything like that success. Just ask Matthias Rath.

There certainly was a lot of angst when Lingh was sold to Karen Offield in a bid to make the Olympic team.

as far as Painted Black, Morgan was Anky’s student at time

[soloudinhere]

I confess to also being extremely confused by the position that just because someone is a better rider than me I should phone it in and give the ride to someone else at my own expense.

So I guess the best riders got there by magic, then, since by that logic they should have been giving their horses to better riders instead of riding and learning themselves. Okay. Totally makes sense.

If I was that rich and I had a string of damn nice horses to ride, even if I never competed a day, it would be over my dead body that I just handed over the reins to someone else in some sort of selfless act. That makes no sense. If you enjoy being an owner, great. If you would rather be out there riding yourself, then you won’t make a very good sponsor. It’s a different role and not one that everyone is obligated to play just because someone poorer than them is a better rider than them. What an odd position to take.

[SnicklefritzG]

Charlotte Jorst made a big mistake when she called out Gary Rockwell. From her Facebook page:

"“Tonight i had an oustanding test the beautiful and talented Kastels Akeem. The judges were almost in agreement. Everyone were at 70 to almost 72% except for Gary Rockwell who had Akeem at a 66%. Harmony between rider and horse was a 6 from Gary. That’s hurtful. I have done nothing but work on the harmony. But take a look, what do we think? 66 or 72?”

She’s ambitious and independent but also brusque and unrealistic. If you want to play on the international stage you’ve got to play the game. Instead of bawling on social media, she should have gone straight to her coach. Maybe she did do that as well, but calling out a judge is inappropriate.

@Can'tFindMyWhip

I think that people hate on Charlotte Jorst because she is unapologetically ambitious and she is an independently wealthy woman. This is woman on woman sexism. We adore Charlotte Dujardin because she was a groom that clicked with a difficult horse, and a Cinderella story began. And we adore Laura Graves because it is another story about a sweet, hard working girl finding a difficult horse and made it to the Olympics. Another fairy tale. Jorst is throwing her money around and making things happen because she has a goal, and no one else is going to help her get to the top. And yet that bothers people. I guess because there is nothing sweet or cute or ladylike about it. Someone said it before, if this was a man buying Lorenzo, and saying that he intended for this horse to help him make it to WEG, we wouldn’t even be talking about it. Men are supposed to be ambitious, women aren’t.

I would be nice to see Jorst be a team player, and consider helping a younger rider out by lending them one of her more maxed-out rides. Not like “give it away” but pay it forward. I’m sure that she recognizes that she is in an unusual position, to have the funds to buy pretty much any horse she wants, and the interest and ability to be competitive against the best of the best. Perhaps she would consider lending one of her horses out to a promising U-25 rider, that way she wouldn’t ever compete against her own rider.

[ladyj79]

@SnicklefritzG

She’s ambitious and independent but also brusque and unrealistic. If you want to play on the international stage you’ve got to play the game. Instead of bawling on social media, she should have gone straight to her coach. Maybe she did do that as well, but calling out a judge is inappropriate.

1. She is certainly not the first successful rider to call out judges. I wonder if you recall that we now have score “corrections” when there is one score outside of the range of the other scores. Because the German and Dutch judges were trying to single-handedly tank the other’s riders a few years back. And people complained. Quite openly.

Here’s an article on the subject of score correction.

http://www.eurodressage.com/equestrian/2015/02/19/david-stickland-moving-towards-stable-score-future

2. Charlotte Jorst has been successfully competing at the FEI level for over 15 years. Here is her FEI record:

https://data.fei.org/Person/Performance.aspx?p=46B90F22B1C2493AC127623069E585C8

To claim she doesn’t know how to “play on the international stage” is absurd.

3. I think people don’t like her because she is brusque. And a successful woman. And clearly many people here believe that if they had her money, they wouldn’t just be where she is at, they would be standing on an Olympic podium. Maybe someone on this board is the great undiscovered talent. Seriously. There probably is. But sadly, that’s not how life works. But some here sure sound brusque and unrealistic and like you’re bawling on social media.

[SnicklefritzG]

Lol

i think you need to chill and go have a beer. You are twisting everyone’s comments to suit your own ends.

i never said she didn’t know how to play. You made that up. I simply stated that if you want to play you have to go along with the game.

Recall, she doesn’t just want to ride, she wants to be at WEG and in the top 10!

@ladyj79

1. She is certainly not the first successful rider to call out judges. I wonder if you recall that we now have score “corrections” when there is one score outside of the range of the other scores. Because the German and Dutch judges were trying to single-handedly tank the other’s riders a few years back. And people complained. Quite openly.

Here’s an article on the subject of score correction.

http://www.eurodressage.com/equestri…e-score-future

2. Charlotte Jorst has been successfully competing at the FEI level for over 15 years. Here is her FEI record:

https://data.fei.org/Person/Performa…27623069E585C8

To claim she doesn’t know how to “play on the international stage” is absurd.

3. I think people don’t like her because she is brusque. And a successful woman. And clearly many people here believe that if they had her money, they wouldn’t just be where she is at, they would be standing on an Olympic podium. Maybe someone on this board is the great undiscovered talent. Seriously. There probably is. But sadly, that’s not how life works. But some here sure sound brusque and unrealistic and like you’re bawling on social media.

[Applecore]

Another factor that I think armchair quarterbacks and elite dressage coaches alike would agree on is that if Charlotte wants to ride for US teams, she needs more experience and show miles. And the fastest way to get experience without burning out her horses is to ride and show multiple horses! A more senior rider like Carl Hester or Steffen Peters can afford to ‘pass on’ an experienced horse because they don’t need more showring experience. A Charlotte Jorst (or even Laura Graves for that matter) needs to ride every FEI test they can to further their experience, and Charlotte is lucky to be in a position to self-fund that.

She is a good rider and takes good care of her horses. What she does beyond that is her choice. Sure, I’d love to see her fund other riders or programs (and maybe she does, I’m not really in the know), but that’s not her personal goal right now.

And for her community service, the popularity of her Kastel Denmark sunshirts are probably single-handedly reducing the melanoma rate in Wellington! :lol:

[soloudinhere]

Well if she doesn’t want to just ride, she wants to be in the top 10, then logic would dictate if she/her team don’t feel their current horses can get her there - a new one or more who can should be acquired.

​​​​​​what is the other proposed solution if that’s the goal? Phone it in and say well I guess I’ll never know if I can ride at that level? Or get a horse who you know can compete at that level and see what happens?

If you’ve got the means and the time, why downgrade your goals?

[ladyj79]

@SnicklefritzG

Lol

i think you need to chill and go have a beer. You are twisting everyone’s comments to suit your own ends.

i never said she didn’t know how to play. You made that up. I simply stated that if you want to play you have to go along with the game.

Um, I quoted you. I think it’s cool that you are gaslighting me :lol::lol::lol::lol: and I totally expect that from someone who dislikes a successful female rider because she is “brusque” and doesn’t know her place.

[SnicklefritzG]

A lot of people dont like her because her public comments particularly about Gary Rockwell make her sound like a spoiled kid.

@soloudinhere

Well if she doesn’t want to just ride, she wants to be in the top 10, then logic would dictate if she/her team don’t feel their current horses can get her there - a new one or more who can should be acquired.

​​​​​​what is the other proposed solution if that’s the goal? Phone it in and say well I guess I’ll never know if I can ride at that level? Or get a horse who you know can compete at that level and see what happens?

If you’ve got the means and the time, why downgrade your goals?

[RedmondDressage]

@SnicklefritzG

Recall, she doesn’t just want to ride, she wants to be at WEG and in the top 10!

I’m still struggling to see what is so wrong about this? She set a goal. She’s actively working toward it.That’s how people accomplish things.

[soloudinhere]

@SnicklefritzG

A lot of people dont like her because her public comments particularly about Gary Rockwell make her sound like a spoiled kid.

Yeah, well, if I shelved every goal I’ve ever had because somebody somewhere liked someone else better than me I’m pretty sure my greatest life achievement would be putting pants on in the morning.

Just because “some people” don’t like her public comments, has zero to do with team selection.

[SnicklefritzG]

Nobody said there was anything wrong with goal setting, You are making that up.

What people are citing is her inappropriate behavior towards judges which is a different topic from goals

@RedmondDressage

I’m still struggling to see what is so wrong about this? She set a goal. She’s actively working toward it.That’s how people accomplish things.

[ladyj79]

@SnicklefritzG

Nobody said there was anything wrong with goal setting, You are making that up.

What people are citing is her inappropriate behavior towards judges which is a different topic from goals

No one is making things up. People, including you, are apparently unhappy that she expressly stated her goals. Which are literally the same goals as every other competitive FEI rider.

And riders complain about judges. It is a thing that happens. And sometimes the riders are correct, which is why we now have score corrections.

I agree that lodging complaints on FB isn’t a great idea, but people can actually do/say whatever they like on social media, and the rest of us can respond however we feel is appropriate. People did or didn’t like Lauren Sprieser calling out a mean girl rider last week, and they did or didn’t like Anne Kursinski’s calling out Hoffy’s judge a few years back.

Riders or spectators second guessing judges is as old as competition, and it happens in every single sport.

It is ok not to like someone because you just don’t like them, and it’s ok to think their behaviour is excessive or off-putting. Hell, there were absolutely people who thought Charlotte Dujardin was brusque in her clinics. And there is absolutely a double standard between the kind of behaviour tolerated from men in sport than women.

Where I take issue is saying this woman hasn’t “earned” her rides, due to some arbitrarily assigned criteria that aren’t actually things. Or this pretty nutty opinion that a top dressage rider who honestly probably only has one Olympic cycle left in her should quit now and give her horses and money to cute young girls because they’re nicer and sweeter and people like cothers don’t feel so personally affronted by their being the same demographic. Or men. Men of any age can have anyone’s money and horses. I mean, Athina supported Doda, and look how that worked out for her. And still people were furious she “took his horses away from him.”

This is like me when I see someone with two cute babies/puppies/ponies and say it isn’t fair that you have two of those things and I have none, so give one to me. Yes, I do actually say this, but I am kidding.

Snicklefritz, please don’t take this as personal, it is not. Because I completely understand that not only are you entitled to your opinion, but also that you are not at all alone in your antipathy toward this type of rider/person. But I do have to point out that it doesn’t matter. Because it’s not just a sport, it’s a business. And also tactless =/= talentless. And having money has never, ever, ever bought a rider a medal.

Moderate aside, if you haven’t seen the Jappeloup movie, you should watch it. When Joe Fargis suggests after Durand falls off at the Olympics that if only a real rider had the horse he would be successful, that’s kind of what these situations feel like to me. If Durand in the Olympics wasn’t perceived as “good enough” for his horse, what hope do any of us have? Like if Jorst at 51st in the world isn’t good enough deserve to ride her own horses, who is? Ok, Steffen Peters is. So Steffen is 10th? I think in the world at the moment, so at what number (obviously before 51) do riders have to start giving away their horses to younger peppier people?

I mean, I suggested to Carlos Ribas that he should give me Ronaldo last week…but only because Ronaldo is coming 19.

Oh, and I say the same thing when people I know say that Eric Lamaze is a shite rider because anyone could have won Olympic medals with Hickstead. No, no they couldn’t.

[soloudinhere]

@SnicklefritzG

Nobody said there was anything wrong with goal setting, You are making that up.

What people are citing is her inappropriate behavior towards judges which is a different topic from goals

So we can never question a judge, ever? That’s definitely just plain untrue.

[SnicklefritzG]

lol i never said that either and you know it :lol:

there is a difference between questioning a judge and dealing with it privately and complaining about him or her on social media

@soloudinhere

So we can never question a judge, ever? That’s definitely just plain untrue.

[AZ_TD]

@SnicklefritzG

lol i never said that either and you know it :lol:

there is a difference between questioning a judge and dealing with it privately and complaining about him or her on social media

Yes, people need to be careful about using social media to vent! It can have serious consequences.

[ladyj79]

I think we forget how great excessive can be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8Nyc9jzSDg

[see_u_at_x]

@ladyj79

I think we forget how great excessive can be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8Nyc9jzSDg

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

[exploding_pony]

From the USEF FEI Code of Conduct:

As a United States Equestrian Federation, Inc. (USEF) competitor and/or horse owner, I acknowledge my obligation to uphold and adhere to the highest standards of horsemanship, sportsmanship, and citizenship whenever I am representing my country whether as a team member, individual competitor, or horse owner, and whether during actual competition or not.

IMHO it is very bad sportsmanship to go on social media and complain publicly about a judge and am guessing that this could be a violation of the code of conduct. I’m just a low level AA, so have I have no idea how this is enforced, but I would think that there might be an issue here in terms of being a team member.

[SnicklefritzG]

Excellent post
this gets to the heart of the issue with Charlotte j

@exploding pony

From the USEF

FEI Code of Conduct:

As a United States Equestrian Federation, Inc. (USEF) competitor and/or horse owner, I acknowledge my obligation to uphold and adhere to the highest standards of horsemanship, sportsmanship, and citizenship whenever I am representing my country whether as a team member, individual competitor, or horse owner, and whether during actual competition or not.

IMHO it is very bad sportsmanship to go on social media and complain publicly about a judge and am guessing that this could be a violation of the code of conduct. I’m just a low level AA, so have I have no idea how this is enforced, but I would think that there might be an issue here in terms of being a team member.