Charlotte withdrawing from Olympics?

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

I saw the video (finally). My first impression is that it reminds me of the Mark Todd video chasing the horse into the water with the branch–it’s almost bizarre seeing one of the most decorated riders in the sport behaving like a bad horse trainer at the worst backyard barn teaching an up-and-down lesson kid how to canter on a lame lesson horse. Even with the giggling in the background. (Only at least with the MT video it was just one time, and the horse could have gotten away.)

I don’t know why people are discussing the student. Personally, I am sympathetic to a child being trained by an Olympian and not knowing what to do or even if she is right to object, and ditto the rider’s family. But even if you don’t feel that way, Charlotte is responsible for her own actions, and she is the subject of the thread and the instigator.

[Manni01]

I agree and I can only recommend to not to become a fan of a specific rider but only admiring good rides…

Unfortunately most good rides are performed by riders which are not at the top

[meupatdoes]

Oh, I believe I also posted on that thread a couple months ago and, spoiler alert, my position was consistent with what I am saying now.

[FitzE]

I don’t remember getting support thinking the adults on the horses could have done something. I’ll check it out, though.

[LadyB]

Not that any abuse is ok, but I was hoping it was minor taps to create the piaffe/passage. Not a dressage whip flying in all directions.

I wanted to give her the benefit of doubt before seeing the video. 4 years is a long time to evolve, but she also was already a huge public figure at this point 4 years ago. There is absolutely no method to what she is doing or purpose/effect. I can’t even tell WHY this is being done.

Timing of the video is completely suspicious. Either way, she did it, and she can either grow from her mistake or not. This happens every few years, and unfortunately people forget. Mark Todd was attacked in the last 4 years for something similar while cross country schooling. People were appalled, but now no one remembers and have moved on. I imagine this eventually will be forgotten.

Curious what the FEI will do.

[anon55755751]

I don’t disagree with you, but if you look back through the archives of this forum, I believe the pattern/history you will see, starting with rollkur fights, is people alarmed by the direction of dressage and rough training practices effectively being shouted down as “klassikal nuts” and/or plebes who can’t possibly understand what it takes to train international caliber horses if we haven’t done so ourselves. Not saying we shouldn’t all immediately agree what is going on in this video is wrong, just saying there is at least a 20 year shift in the culture to attack people who question the elite of the sport under the guise of “it is winning, therefore correct”

ETA: And I HATE it. This forum has wonderful, educated, experienced riders and trainers and should be a great place to discuss theory and technique, and read books together, and those discussions often devolve into shouting and drama

[tabula_rashah]

I will preface this in that I am no longer in the mix of the dressage world anymore.
But I really thought it was going to be just an in-hand whip/ passage/ piaffe thing and I am so sad to see that it wasn’t. The whole thing just sucks- from it being someone who was supposed to be known for being very fair to her horses, to the person taking the video and laughing, to the rider not standing up for their horse, to the negative attention this will bring to horse sports and the Olympics. And the horse, it really, really sucks for the horse who obviously was trying but had no idea of what he was being asked for and punished for.
There are so many things that have happened in multiple horse sports in the last few years that I seriously wonder sometimes WTF are we doing? Maybe the middle-aged lady whose happy and healthy horse lives in the back yard with his stablemate and gets an hour walk trail ride once a week is the one we should start emulating.

[SadieRidingHorses]

A factual question - is anyone able to understand what’s being said in the video?

At one point, it seems like CDJ says something to the effect of “it’s not that *** hard”. Then the rider seems to ask a question, and CDJ gives an answer.

Not saying the conversation provides any justification for what’s happening (at all, in anyway), just curious if anyone is able to make out what’s being said.

[Horse_Daft]

@enjoytheride

Having seen the video, I am disappointed and it is indefensible.

Ditto. I physically flinched at the first whack. I’m gutted.

[TimeForAHorse]

I have no doubt that Charlotte truly loves and respects the horses she works with - but I also think that the slope is slippery indeed when one’s approach to training is predominantly based on the application (and relief) of aversives (i.e., negative reinforcement, with perhaps some positive punishment as well). This type of training is inherently aversive to the learner by design, so one’s only guiderails must involve defining “just how aversive” is too aversive for one’s own ethics.

It reminded me of this response (originally written after some awful H/J clinic by some BNT) - it describes the use of humane endpoints:
https://www.facebook.com/profile/727853188/search/?q=humane%20endpoints

I think that instances such as these should be pursued fully, and we should have some very self-critical reflection on if there are better ways to train and interact with horses. I am not particularly bothered that this came out before the Olympics, and quite frankly, I don’t even care if it came out because of spite or someone’s agenda or whatever… I’m glad* it has come to light at all.

*thought not glad that it happened, obviously!

[SillyHorse]

@Manni01

Sorry, she got medals at US Olympic events (whatever that is) but she never went to the Olympics to compete against other top countries…. She was on the team but in 1980 there was a boycott

You are mistaken. Lendon Gray rode for the US at the 1980 Alternate Olympics in Rotterdam (that’s what “that” is), and the Seoul Olympics in 1988. Stop pulling stuff out of thin air thinking it makes you seem like an authority. It’s not a good look.

[Zonderpaard]

What a goddamn shame.

I really hope this gives all riders, trainers, parents, grooms motivation to reflect on their own work with horses.

[sascha]

Wiki is a good start to looking things up but it’s a crowd source thing that is not always complete or 100% factual. Always check other sources after getting info from Wiki.

[CanteringCarrot]

Imagine being so…messed up in the head, that you laugh at this while filming it.

I know some of us may laugh when we’re uncomfortable, but I don’t think that was the case!

And bless that horse for not launching that rider into orbit.

It’s inexcusable. I know that pros feel all sorts of pressure to produce results, but that’s also a pressure that you(g) choose to put on yourself in some ways. It was all just so very rotten and pointless.

[Equibrit]

It is not beyond the average person’s capabilities to type “Lendon Grey Olympic results” in to google

Result; https://olympics.com/en/athletes/lendon-fentress-gray

[roseymare]

@Djones

But I get it why the overwhelmed but quiet said nothing. It’s hard.

Also as someone who has been in a situation where this type of thing has happened. There is a moment of disbelief. Both husband and I felt the same. It took longer than we would have though to digest what was happening before we stepped forward and took the horse away from the person who had gotten out of hand with the whip.

[Jealoushe]

@GraceLikeRain

I agree that most of us have very little idea of what is done/required to develop an international GP horse and that much of it would make a person cringe.

I’ve been thinking about this a lot this morning.

If this is the only way to train a horse to get these scores, then it’s time for the tests and what we are scoring to change. Maybe they don’t need to lift their legs THAT HIGH. Or whatever thing they are trying to achieve through beating their helpless horses.

Is the test now not attainable without abuse?

[be-here-now]

Absolutely indefensible, nonsensical actions on CDJ’s part. That wasn’t training - wasn’t even in the same neighborhood as training. I hope, for the sake of her horses, that she has changed since then - unfortunately I don’t think we will ever know for certain. I am still sort of reeling - CDJ and her team did a very good job of building that “gentler” dressage narrative, and now we can watch it go up in flames in real-time.

I am thinking about this in comparison to the Mark Todd imbroglio and wondering what sort of impact this will have on her cultural legacy long-term. I am not a Kiwi and not old enough to remember MT in his heyday, but it feels like CDJ has much more visibility in public, non-equestrian spaces, especially thanks to social media (some of her freestyles with Valegro on YouTube have several millions of views). Certainly it does not bode well for dressage’s (and equestrian sports in general) “social license to operate”.

Within some parts of the horse world, MT’s poor decisions don’t seem to be much of a sticking point anymore (at least that is my general impression - I am also not an eventer); I hope CDJ’s are not so easily brushed over.

Edited to correct MT’s nationality: NZ, not British

[Jealoushe]

Good point for some to make note of.

Some of us others have already watched our hero’s fall badly (Lamaze for me)…so we are a little more jaded and seasoned in the taste of disappointment.

[anon55755751]

The rate of breakdown that came up in another thread is significant. Good dressage should support longevity, not destroy it.