Charlotte withdrawing from Olympics?

[Horsegirl_s_Mom]

Apologies if this has been said before.

I’m one of those people who marveled at upper level dressage horses “dancing” and wondered how horses were induced to do those beautiful moves, many of which they would never naturally do.

Now I wonder if we’ve seen the answer, and it raises doubts whether dressage is a sport we can embrace.

I think this has the potential to be a serious indictment of dressage, unless upper level trainers and riders can somehow prove to the public that they accomplish the same performance without whips and other harsh methods.

[snaffle1987]

stop trying to justify abuse. she is full swinging, often double handed, a whip at a horses body and legs. No horse should ever be subject to this regardless of the type of whip used.

[LadyB]

add-in the governing body isn’t exactly the most supportive to this kind of stuff.

[LadyB]

Additionally, the Rider is not the one who submitted the video. The sponsor of the lesson is the person who provided the video.

[cayuse]

I did not realize she was 16, that is young and thank you for pointing that out. But when I was not much older than that, I had a trainer get abusive (whipping) with a 3 year old QH I owned and I had her off the horse. I know 3 years makes a big difference in maturity levels so I’ll take that into consideration.
Maybe kids need to taught what animal abuse is and how to deal with it when it happens.

[Bogey2]

I totally understand what you mean…I have to remind boarders constantly that horse are not like dogs, you can’t treat train them and if you don’t maintain the proper handling I am the one who gets run over turning them in and out.

[Scribbler]

1. OK, this is inexcusable. When I first heard about this, I thought it might be piaffe gone wrong.

2. I agree, the calm demeanor makes it seem like this is just part of CD’s tool kit.

3. From what I can see, the rider is in heavy contact so horse won’t go forward, so CD whips the legs to get him into a collected canter. Horse is scared of the whip.

4. In no iteration of the dressage pyramid is this an accepted practice. Also I don’t understand why whip the legs. Wouldn’t just cracking the whip in the air be enough to get forward?

5. A 17 year old in a BNT private lesson isn’t in a position to stop something like this in the minute it’s happening and may also not realize how many times the whip makes contact with legs. Lesson culture is about sucking it up and being “coachable.” Especially for ambitious juniors.

6. I see the whipping rising out of riding on death grip contact, which is a fundamental flaw of much contemporary competition dressage. The horse can’t go forward, even cracking the whip likely isn’t effective, so you need to cause enough fear and pain to overcome the death grip.

[meupatdoes]

The video turned out to be worse than I expected and I am very disappointed to see this from a rider and trainer I have very much admired, and who I do still believe has overall ushered in a much more horse friendly approach to competitive dressage than what we were constantly seeing ten years ago.

Then again, exceedingly rarely are these videos of trainers abusing their personal horses on their own dime. 99% of the time the trainer is being paid by somebody else.

And I think the people who are paying for it should get the same consequences.

I think if Andy Kocher gets suspended for using electric spurs on your horse, YOU should get suspended too, along with EVERY OTHER HORSE YOU OWN (and surviving transfer of ownership). The competitive value of your horses is $0 until your suspension is up.

If some trainer at reining worlds beats the bahohoo out of your 2yo colt while you aren’t even in the country, same deal. Whatever consequences befall the trainer are equally applied to the owner and all other horses owned by them.

Imagine how quickly owners would start paying better attention!

I am ok with people who are spending tens upon tens upon hundreds of thousands of dollars in having luxury sport pets do tricks for their entertainment and recreation having strict liability for the welfare of these animals.

If SOMEBODY ELSE abused your horse, YOU abused your horse. Period.

And I have had a situation where a trainer abusively rode my horse while I was not around and did not know about it. Did I know it was happening? Of course not. Am I psychic? Sadly no. Did I immediately pull my horse from his program when I found out and pursue consequences against him? Yes.

Does the buck still stop with me on the fact that it happened at all?
Absolutely it does.

Now we can have a separate conversation about whether strict liability is the appropriate standard or if we should assess what a potentially unsuspecting owner “knew or should have known.”

We can also have a separate conversation about whether the owner’s remedial actions or lack thereof should play a role in their accountability. ie Did the owner leave the clinic or redirect the training, or did they know damn well for an extended period of time that Andy Kocher was using “the rockets”?
Maybe an owner who was climbing mt kilamanjaro while their trainer was getting too aggressive during a schooling session back at the ranch has some affirmative defenses they can raise, and we can have a reasonable conversation about to what extent owners who honestly dont know what is happening should be held accountable.

But in this instance, where the rider is SITTING ON THE DAMN HORSE AT HER OWN PRIVATE FACILITY WHILE THE OWNER IS VIDEOING AND LAUGHING, and they took ZERO remedial action for YEARS???

Whatever score you want to give Charlotte, those two deserve that score too.

[Djones]

I’m saying that the big trots don’t create abusive trainers. Those wp trainers have no similar excuse. They all just want to win.

[DownYonder]

@FitzE

I’m not a dressage person, but I don’t understand what she was even aiming to accomplish here. She seems almost bored, just following the horse around hitting it willy nilly, different places, back, front, never accomplishing anything (not that any result would justify it). The horse is utterly confused, scared, evasive (understandably). Nothing is ever produced nor is the horse given any feedback or even asked a clear question.

I am way behind on this thread but I just watched the video for the first time. I have seen similar training methods in Germany - albeit some 20+ years ago - and in most cases, it was because the horse was lazy behind, not stepping through, and perpetually behind the leg. And yes, I was aghast, as I was when at a different barn, I watched an Olympic medalist and her trainer ride their horses for 40+ minutes with the horses’ chins held tightly on their chests (double bridles on both of them), and also when the trainer made his horse piaffe the entire time he (trainer) smoked a cigarette - accompanied by sharp use of the whip whenever the poor horse faltered or lost rhythm or tried to levade or otherwise escape the movement. It was quite the eye-opener and I lost all respect for that rider and trainer.

[meupatdoes]

@Bogey2

you can’t treat train them

What?

You absolutely can.
Clicker training uses food rewards and it is a fantastic tool that any serious trainer should have in their tool box.

I use it for mounting block behavior and have retrained a bolter who was otherwise unfamiliar with clicker training in about 15 minutes.

This video (different horse) was also trained with a clicker and treats:
https://www.instagram.com/p/CHl3xA0J3lu/?igsh=MW9tOTBuNXB4ZHo0Zw==
I ended up with that horse because he stood up twice at the mounting block with his amateur owner while her trainer was holding his head.
Spent 5 minutes before 2 or 3 rides doodling around with a clicker and some carrots and ta da.

Beezie Madden used clicker training to get Judgment over his fear of liverpools.

I’ve also found that training a previously mishandled horse to do stupid tricks with a clicker can recalibrate their desire to work WITH the human, offer up behaviors, and engage in a conversation rather than just defensively shutting down.

I’m just saying it’s a great tool to have in your tool box and clicker work can be an excellent addition to your relationship with your horse.

[Scribbler]

Stupid pet tricks are the best for overall attitude readjustment in an unhappy horse. They realize there’s a way to collaborate with humans that’s fun and safe. I don’t find it really translates to under saddle. But it also teaches the handler how fast a horse can learn, for good or bad, and what a happy horse looks like. And timing. You need good timing for R plus, and that can translate to better timing of aids in saddle.

[MsM]

Especially disappointing when it is one of the “good guys” seen abusing a horse. Before seeing the video, I would have thought that abuse from her would come in the form of over-restraining. Shocked to see the violent use of the whip. And it seemed like a wildly ineffective way to teach a young rider!

[DownYonder]

@Dressurfrau

I could only watch part of the video. Absolutely indefensible. The moment where she takes both hands to swing the whip did me in.

Did she actually hit the horse with that stroke? I couldn’t see it clearly enough in the video, but I have used both hands to swing a dressage whip (they are long and get a bit heavy) but I did not even touch the horse with it and was ultra careful to keep the lash locked firmly in my hand so it couldn’t hit the horse. I would not consider that abuse because I never hit the horse with the whip - just used it as an extension of my arm to get him forward - he was playing and even doing mock rears instead of going forward. But if she was actually hitting the horse with the lunge whip held in both hands - Good Lord. I just can’t imagine where she learned that technique. And why anyone would think that was okay.

[Rumorhasit93]

@steelerino

Every time these videos surface and get discussed on here I wonder how many of you have ever been at an upper level barn.

I have ridden with and worked for Cara Anthony and trained with Vinton and Ann Karrasch - all for extended periods of time. I have never seen anything like this.

I put a spur mark on a horse ONE time and my spurs got taken away.

I have also leased an FEI horse who was ruined by a well known, top Irish rider.

I’m sorry but your comment is just sad. You’re essentially saying because some of us haven’t seen abuse, we haven’t ridden at a top level barn. What’s that saying about our collective sport?

[Mardi1]

@Maude

Interesting that a 4 year old video just happens to show up right before the olympics…not justifying what Charlotte did, but I think this video came out now for a reason.

The lawyer explained that the rider in the video didn’t want to see CJ win medals.
Neither do I.

[sascha]

@Bogey2

horse are not like dogs, you can’t treat train them and if you don’t maintain the proper handling I am the one who gets run over turning them in and out.

YES, you can. Horses can absolutely 100% be treat trained. Not maintaining proper handling has nothing to do with treat training. That’s where the problem lies. People are happy to reward with treats but are not consistent, do not set proper boundaries, and somehow figure that treat training absolves them of teaching manners. It’s not the treat training that’s the problem. It’s all the other crap that people don’t bother with.

This is (obviously lol) a personal peeve of mine. I’m in a public boarding stable and the crap I see is stunning and people marvel over my little ‘miss manners’ while they watch me shovel treats into her piehole. The thing they refuse to understand is that I set boundaries 11 years ago and I’ve maintained those boundaries fairly every single day since. "I could never get my horse to behave that well … " No, because you are too lazy to put in the work lol. It’s not magic, it’s commitment.

[Maude]

Still fishy IMO

[Rumorhasit93]

@meupatdoes

Beezie Madden used clicker training to get Judgment over his fear of liverpools.

She did this with Vinton Karrasch, the trainer I mentioned above that I rode with. According to the poster I replied to, that’s not “upper level” enough for them

[FitzE]

@rothmpp

Let’s be clear - this was a minor. I really love the way that so many people on here at a more advanced age claim they never would have allowed this at 16 years old. I call BS on most posters saying this.

And where were these people on the CP thread when we were discussing adult riders, workers, assistant trainers?