Charlotte withdrawing from Olympics?

[DownYonder]

I’m not holding my breath for there to be a “big sweep” regarding horse welfare across all sports. It would take an act of Congress to get something implemented that impacted all sports, but sadly animal welfare in general is far down the list of concerns for most Americans.

USEF is best positioned at the moment to do something regarding sports that fall under its umbrella, but we have seen that TPTB at USEF really only pay lip service to the issue of horse welfare. How long has it turned a blind eye to soring, to cutting/gingering of tails, to tie-downs (or tie-ups), to use of running W’s and other contraptions designed to make a horse trip unless it altered its gait mechanics, to instances of abuse/harsh methods used by riders at shows, etc.? Yeah, it can ban them at its competitions but as we have seen, that does nothing to prevent folks from using those methods when not on USEF-sanctioned premises. And don’t forget that AQHA doesn’t fall under USEF’s umbrella - and the reason reining had a very short stint as a USEF discipline is because those folks decided they didn’t want to subject themselves to USEF regulations over its sport (particularly in the area of dictating at what age horses could compete, but there were also concerns in reining ranks about what else USEF might dictate).

[FitzE]

Thanks for that reply. I think I understand your frustration that so many abusers are not caught and I share that. I’m really sick knowing that Werth has her gold medal while simultaneously confirming that she doesn’t care how the horse is trained as long as it produces for her. Makes that medal absolutely meaningless to me.

I can also see that you and I have very different approaches to discipline. I don’t hit anyone or anything, most certainly not a toddler. My children are also amazing and I regularly get compliments on their manners, but they’ve never been struck a single time. Same for me with animals. My most recent instructor feels the same way - she does not allow people to carry crops or wear spurs on her horses. Now, this was not a performance-oriented situation, but the point is: there are people who train without hitting and even people who find hitting to be absolutely forbidden. A good re-framing I heard is this: when a parent is yelling/hitting a child (and we can say when a trainer/coach is yelling/hitting), the parent is the one having the tantrum. They are not in control, they are not the adult in the situation, they are teaching nothing but that the person with more power gets to act out. The Aussie woman was deffo having a tantrum, yelling at her student, belittling her, commanding her to whip her horse. CD wasn’t even having a tantrum, she was calm and casual, which in a way is almost worse.

I really did enjoy the eventing dressage. Some of the rides were so lovey and none of the rides were concerning in the rollkur way or anxious, scared horses.

I disagree that CD made a poor choice on a single day. You don’t break THAT drastically from your everyday methodology, esp in front of clients, esp in such a calm, methodical way, if it’s your first time doing something like that. CD was comfortable, calm, and casual while she was whipping away at that horse, even using two hands.

No way in any universe was that her first time at that particular rodeo.

[Mondo]

@hey101

I think CD made a poor decision on a single day. By all accounts her horses go well for her year after year. If she was truly abusive the others would have come out of the woodwork, and so far I’ve seen nothing like that.

Thank you hey, for saying what I’ve been thinking all along but not stated nearly as well.

[Mondo]

@Knights_Mom

I have heard reports being rough for years. Coming from her yard. People talk.

From whom have you heard these “reports?” Barn gossip will never go away. I’ve had disgruntled former clients accuse me of all sorts of false BS. When I say, where’s your proof? They just go away.

[Mondo]

@FitzE

You don’t break THAT drastically from your everyday methodology, esp in front of clients, esp in such a calm, methodical way, if it’s your first time doing something like that. CD was comfortable, calm, and casual while she was whipping away at that horse, even using two hands.

I truly do not believe that her horses would go so well for her in international competition if she were beating them with a whip on the regular. You can ride the flashy gaits all you want, but the tension will never go away if you beat a horse into submission. I do think it was an aberration. Maybe not the first and possibly not the last, but I don’t think that’s how she trains her horses. When you get on the big stage, the wheels will eventually fall off. That’s why it’s so frustrating that IW keeps winning with her blue-tongued horses that are clearly tense and miserable. If we want to clean up our sport, we need the judges to wake the f up.

[millerra]

With respect to hitting and using a whip. Full disclosure - I use a whip on my young horse - because he hears the TAP - no more than a bump - from the whip far easier than he does my leg. He came from a situation where leg and bit aids where loud and confusing and he shut down and was severely behind the leg. But he could “hear” the whip and learned that that meant forward - now he is really forward and is hearing the leg aids much better. The seat had a similar effect on him - he could “hear” that and would respond - so between my seat and my whip - gently tapping him - he has turned the corner and is understanding. Whips don’t need to be harsh - they can be very simple, soft tools - just like a bit. Whip does not equal abuse but it can.

[Christa_P]

IIRC, on the other side the US Endurance Riders (AERC?) cut ties with the FEI because the FEI would not do anything about the horse abuse at FEI endurance rides in the Middle East. There are some groups focusing on horse welfare, unfortunately too many are avoiding dealing with it.

[DownYonder]

@Christa_P

IIRC, on the other side the US Endurance Riders (AERC?) cut ties with the FEI because the FEI would not do anything about the horse abuse at FEI endurance rides in the Middle East. There are some groups focusing on horse welfare, unfortunately too many are avoiding dealing with it.

Yes, good point. FEI/USET will do something only when not doing something poses a significant financial risk to the organization.

[DownYonder]

@Mondo

That’s why it’s so frustrating that IW keeps winning with her blue-tongued horses that are clearly tense and miserable. If we want to clean up our sport, we need the judges to wake the f up.

Refresh my memory - which horse was she riding in that blue-tongue photo?

[MadTrotter]

I just rewatched her winning ride. Her core is like a steel beam. Impeccable balance but so so rigid. I’d hate to be her body worker. Contrast with someone like Lottie Fry for softer, less fascist style.

[Knights_Mom]

@Mondo

@Knights_Mom

I have heard reports being rough for years. Coming from her yard. People talk.

From whom have you heard these “reports?” Barn gossip will never go away. I’ve had disgruntled former clients accuse me of all sorts of false BS. When I say, where’s your proof? They just go away.

I will not disclose the identity of this person. They came to me distraught, I believe them. I’ve also heard from others in that country. There are actually individuals averse to the horsey hierarchy there. Any opposition is met with verbal aggression which I have personally witnessed and experienced.

Thugs. Bullies.

[pn]

I was afraid of being slaughtered here for my perspective, but this post gave me courage. I had a horse, the love of my life. He was dangerous. On the ground and under saddle. He was talented and beautiful and I loved him. My long time coach walked out on us. She didn’t know what to do anymore. He could back up over and around anything. Had a huge gift of self preservation as to not hurt himself, but he could stop mid canter and back through people, people on lawn chairs, doorways, trees, over the dressage ring fence,…
In the stall he was aggressive towards people who thought they could overpower him and dangerous with the vet. He was never abused to cause this behaviour. It was just him. He was the smartest cleverest horse ever, and I loved him and in spite of the awfuls, I had a tremendous amount of fun with him. When he was good, he was very good. And SO brave.
I took him to train with a famous Olympian , who refused to get hurt by getting on him. He helped me a lot with him. And he used a whip. Every time my horse stopped dead and started going backwards, he hit him with the whip. HARD. It took only a few good cracks and the behaviour stopped. The trainer always carried the whip, usually just letting trail, but my clever horse learned very quickly that whip could come alive.
The point in sharing this is, if anyone had walked into the ring during any of those rides, would have been very shocked at what they saw, because it would have been out of context.
Maybe there was more going on then the whip portion of the video. I don’t think perhaps we know the full story? Hopefully….
And before anyone jumps all over me, I knew this horse from the time he was started as a 3/year old. He had the benifit of all health checks, except acupuncture because he tried to kill the vet at the first needle going in.. He lived a long life wth me and we humanely put him to sleep with advanced EPM. He was never tested for epm and perhaps that was the issue.
The point is, yes she was using her whip successively, but why? M

[sascha]

@pn

perhaps that was the issue.
The point is, yes she was using her whip successively, but why?

To get him to lift his feet higher.

I’m sorry you had such a shitty experience with your horse and hope at this point you realize there are other choices and many health avenues to explore should this type of horse present itself again. Many moons ago I went through similar and realised that no matter how well it worked I couldn’t continue it on my own and was forced to find a different way.

[luvmyhackney]

@FitzE

My most recent instructor feels the same way - she does not allow people to carry crops or wear spurs on her horses. Now, this was not a performance-oriented situation, but the point is: there are people who train without hitting and even people who find hitting to be absolutely forbidden. A good re-framing I heard is this: when a parent is yelling/hitting a child (and we can say when a trainer/coach is yelling/hitting), the parent is the one having the tantrum. They are not in control, they are not the adult in the situation, they are teaching nothing but that the person with more power gets to act out.

I don’t consider a tap with my whip as a tantrum. I’m short, horse is tall, a tap with my crop is much clearer than my leg at times. Especially when I tap his shoulder as a reminder when he leans and bulges his shoulder.

A whip and spurs are a tool that when used with empathy result in clearer communication.

[millerra]

So, I understand why pn was hesitant to post her story. None of us were there; none of us know how the horse actually was. Perhaps there was a “kinder” way to get through to the horse; but maybe, just maybe, the olympian had the horse right - maybe the horse was just deciding ‘not to’ and found a really effective way to get out of work. And the olympian’s approach was the safest, fastest way to save a horse and/or rider from a tragic outcome.

I rarely use harsh responses to my horses, but when they become dangerous, I most definitely tell them in no uncertain terms that that behavior is not allowed. Case in point - my own homebred decided he no longer needed to hold his back feet for the farrier. He was about 8 yrs at the time and had been respectfully trimmed his entire life. Not lame, not bad hocks, but he just didn’t want to any more. He was a big horse and figured out the hoof jerk w/ impeccable timing. I would relatively gently tell him to knock it off. No change. Farrier started talking drugs. I thought no way in H*** was my horse needing drugs. The next time he jerked his foot, I did a come to jesus moment for about 15 seconds where he got in massive trouble. Little ol’ me is never going to deliver as much physical punishment no matter how hard I try than an actual kick or bite from another horse. He looked at me w/ mild surprise and said “huh, I guess i"d better stand here.” Dang if he didn’t straighten up his act. He has been absolutely fine since.

Perhaps PNs horse had a similar “well dang, that doesn’t work any more and it stings just a bit, I guess I’d better knock it off”. Perhaps the olympian had the right response. We don’t know. It sounds like it had a happy ending rather than a tragic one.

*just to be clear, I didn’t think the CD was appropriate training or use of the whip. It appeared dangerous and abusive but I do understand PNs point.

[MadTrotter]

@millerra

Dang if he didn’t straighten up his act. He has been absolutely fine since.

I feel like the people who are most fundamentalist about never ever “hitting” a horse don’t actually manage them personally. You can horse whisper all you want but the minute you have 3 bossy piggy horses trying to all bum rush the gate at the same time, or cornering you in the pasture and thrashing each other because they think you have treats, you have the preserve your personal space and assert yourself.

[sascha]

FWIW, I have absolutely no problem whatsoever with CTJs for dangerous or potentially dangerous behaviour. I will not have a horse bite, kick, strike, rear, head swing, or any other potentially harmful behaviour and I’ll mete out memorable corrections quickly and fairly.

I read the previous poster’s accounting of their story differently than you did, clearly.

[millerra]

Agree that we read it differently - probably because the thought of a horse backing through and over stuff terrifies me and I consider it highly dangerous behavior. The story read to me as the the olympian’s method was the last hail mary attempt to make the horse safely rideable.

[Old_Mac_Donald]

The amount of absolute false BS coming out on social media around this time is just incredible and really concerning.

I could post “I saw X jigger a horse once to piaffe” and - depending on where I posted it - next minute, that rider will have “I heard a rumor that they jigger their horses” forever more. Like the story about the Polish mare going to slaughter… no, the rider bought the mare as a 2yo. When was she “rescued from slaughter” again? But it is being shared and shared and shared.

I took a horse for a walk with a carrot stick one day. This random pulled me up and asked why I was planning to whip my horse. Least she asked, but she was clearly concerned. I told her I was doing some groundwork at a nearby park and the only thing getting whipped was me when I fell over it. Nowadays people just snap a photo and post it online “abuser! and it gains unstoppable traction.

[Old_Mac_Donald]

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