Charlotte withdrawing from Olympics?

[Old_Mac_Donald]

The amount of absolute false BS coming out on social media around this time is just incredible and really concerning.

I could post “I saw X jigger a horse once to piaffe” and - depending on where I posted it - next minute, that rider will have “I heard a rumor that they jigger their horses” forever more. Like the story about the Polish mare going to slaughter… no, the rider bought the mare as a 2yo. When was she “rescued from slaughter” again? But it is being shared and shared and shared.

I took a horse for a walk with a carrot stick one day. This random pulled me up and asked why I was planning to whip my horse. Least she asked, but she was clearly concerned. I told her I was doing some groundwork at a nearby park and the only thing getting whipped was me when I fell over it. Nowadays people just snap a photo and post it online “abuser! and it gains unstoppable traction.

[Old_Mac_Donald]

Quantaz

[hey101]

Thanks for this discussion I am enjoying it! And appreciate the civility. Let me be clear I never whaled off and hit my toddlers. But they did get age-appropriate discipline. I remember one time my two year old daughter laid down in a target and had an absolute melt down so I casually stood up against a rack of stuff and (quite uncomfortably) stood there for what felt like 3 years but was probably more like 3 minutes. Half the people that walked by said “good job mom” and half the people “gave the LOOK”. she realized her tantrum was getting nowhere and then we proceeded with our day.

I have no issue with physically disciplining a horse that comes into my barn that is aggressive. I’ve had many many horses come in here that the owners were afraid of and literally it took a few come to Jesus moments, and the horse realized I was a bigger asshole than they were and then they were perfect model citizens, and I handed them back to their owner. about 30 seconds of physical discipline and then the horse worked wonderful for me on the ground and in the ring. These animals outweigh me by 10 times and they are herd hierarchy based so if I’m not the alpha, then they will be. And it’s not even whipping like the Charlotte video. It’s a couple of good hard smacks backing them up a bit and just the conviction that I’m in charge and they are not.

But I digress from the CD video. Not a great moment, but I think an example was made of her because of the timing. I have a bridge in Alaska to sell you if you think that kind of crap doesn’t happen every day around the world. And I’ll come back to the mark todd video. He literally swatted the horse in the butt with an old broken branch, and people lost their collective cookies. And where is the thread with 1k plus responses to Isabel Werth being banned for the shit she’s put out in public for years. that’s why I roll my eyeballs so hard, my eye sockets have bruises on them

[sascha]

@hey101

I’ll come back to the mark todd video. He literally swatted the horse in the butt with an old broken branch, and people lost their collective cookies. And where is the thread with 1k plus responses to Isabel Werth being banned for the shit she’s put out in public for years.

I think the important thing to remember with all of this is that it’s our sport that is in jeopardy because this stuff is going public. We are not as insulated as we’d like to think we are.

Isabel vs. Charlotte? I guess we wait for such clearly dancing videos of Isabel.

@hey101

I have a bridge in Alaska to sell you if you think that kind of crap doesn’t happen every day around the world.

Most of us here get that. Doesn’t make it ok. Many of us would like to see the tide turn. We’d rather this crap was not a part of everyday training around the world.

[cardinale]

@pn

. He helped me a lot with him. And he used a whip. Every time my horse stopped dead and started going backwards, he hit him with the whip. HARD. It took only a few good cracks and the behaviour stopped. The trainer always carried the whip, usually just letting trail, but my clever horse learned very quickly that whip could come alive.
The point in sharing this is, if anyone had walked into the ring during any of those rides, would have been very shocked at what they saw, because it would have been out of context.

But I don’t think anyone knowledgeable would have been shocked at seeing the use of the whip, because your horse was hit with the whip only after stopping and going backwards. That’s a clear use of a whip only in response to a clearly apparent dangerous misbehavior. The horse was able to quickly learn the consequence and stopped. No more misbehavior, no more whipping.

CdJ, on the other hand, appears to basically attack the horse with the whip in order to induce anxiety and tension that would result in more “action”. There was no assertion or allegation of any dangerous behavior being corrected. I doubt the horse could form any association between its behavior and being hit. There was nothing for the horse to figure out to make it stop.

[Fiesta01]

@sascha

I will not have a horse bite, kick, strike, rear, head swing, or any other potentially harmful behaviour and I’ll mete out memorable corrections quickly and fairly.

Hmm, not what you told me, rather condescendingly, many moons ago when I recounted smacking my mare with my hand between the ears at the top of a third rear, and under trees yet. Quickly and fairly and immediately over. It was definitely a dangerous behavior that had to be nipped in the bud. As I said then, she never offered to rear again, and I owned her the rest of her life.

[sascha]

I certainly don’t recall telling you such a thing, but at any rate, those 2 things are not mutually exclusive and, in fact, I have used that method in the past, although I don’t use that particular method lately (not going to say never again, because, of course I can get caught off guard and go for what I was taught as a much younger person).

[FitzE]

@cardinale

I doubt the horse could form any association between its behavior and being hit. There was nothing for the horse to figure out to make it stop.

This was the most disturbing aspect. Even as humans we cannot quite understand what she was doing, esp as she hit with the whip in both directions at one point. The horse had no way of escaping the abuse and nothing he did caused her stop it and praise him for the correct response.

It was like shambolic at best, stupidly cruel at worst.

[Kyrabee]

Yes…she ws quite random in her use of the whip….and I don’t recall her giving any instructions to the rider who was probably scared spitless. Let’s just call abuse….abuse.

[SillyHorse]

@hey101

I think CD made a poor decision on a single day.

I don’t believe this for a moment. I think she’s used force up to and including abuse way more than just this once. She was pretty good at swinging that longe whip.

[Charlieandme]

It’s funny (ironic) that based on the video, you think she does this all the time. I look at the video and when I see her try to use two hands on the whip that it’s someone who doesn’t use a lunge whip very often. I do think her behavior is unacceptable and I think she’s being held accountable (probably a little over the top with the total lack of empathy a lot of folks are displaying - I have made more than my fair share of mistakes with people, horses, and dogs who have all been kind enough to “accept my apology” and my promise to do/be better moving forward). However, I think there are many others who are guilty of much worse and I don’t see the same sort of visceral response this video has sparked. People talk about it - we’ve been talking about Rolkur for how long now? And it still happens. As @hey101 mentioned in her all too long list, lots of terrible things happen to horses for sake of winning. Until judges across the spectrum of horse sports are somehow taught/penalized for rewarding the behavior these methods result in, things aren’t going to change. People like winning.

[Vindicated]

You know, I was so concentrated on the horse’s lack of response-I did not even think about that.
She did not seem like she was handling that whip like someone that is used to using one.

Whoa… I finally found something I am better that than Charlotte…
That said, I don’t ever feel my use of the whip is nearing excessive. When lunging, or lining, I use it as an extension of myself and my voice to keep the horse on task. at most the flipper will tickle a hock or fetlock here or there. That said, I was a feral barn kid that learned how to swing a whip with precision, I’m pretty sure I have hit more people with whips than horses.

[blue_heron]

I don’t think this makes it better also thought this was weird. Using two hands on a longe whip does not work very well.

[GraceLikeRain]

@Charlieandme

It’s funny (ironic) that based on the video, you think she does this all the time. I look at the video and when I see her try to use two hands on the whip that it’s someone who doesn’t use a lunge whip very often.

She’s an Olympian who spends all day every day training and has for more than two decades. She has spent more hours holding a lunge whip than most will in a lifetime. I have zero doubt she can artfully crack a whip or subtly use one when required with a single hand. She’s using it like a bat not a refined training aid.

[SillyHorse]

@GraceLikeRain

@Charlieandme

It’s funny (ironic) that based on the video, you think she does this all the time. I look at the video and when I see her try to use two hands on the whip that it’s someone who doesn’t use a lunge whip very often.

She’s an Olympian who spends all day every day training and has for more than two decades. She has spent more hours holding a lunge whip than most will in a lifetime. I have zero doubt she can artfully crack a whip or subtly use one when required with a single hand. She’s using it like a bat not a refined training aid.

Exactly.

[sascha]

@Charlieandme

I look at the video and when I see her try to use two hands on the whip that it’s someone who doesn’t use a lunge whip very often.

Perhaps this was only her 3rd or 4th time wielding it like a cricket bat and she hadn’t fully got her technique down yet. She was two-handing it to hit as hard as possible.

That aside, over the last dozen years I’ve changed over to carbon fibre longe and in-hand whips. When I’m somewhere I have to borrow a regular fibre glass whip from someone else to help them with their horse, it feels extremely awkward. That was actually one of the first thoughts I had when I saw that video (after the initial horror), “That’s not her whip. She’s had to borrow a heavy, awkward thing.”

Editing to add - think of using your favourite pen (or your lovely keyboard) and then having to sign important documents with a crayon (or use a typewriter), all of a sudden you become clumsy because the tool is not what you’re used to.

[FitzE]

@Charlieandme

However, I think there are many others who are guilty of much worse and I don’t see the same sort of visceral response this video has sparked.

Honest question: Have you read the threads re: Cesar Parra and Helgstrand?

@Vindicated

She did not seem like she was handling that whip like someone that is used to using one.

You needn’t be skilled to be abusive so, in all honesty, this is a red herring for me. She’s unskilled with a whip and abusive with a whip and her demeanour in this clip suggests she’s very comfortable with the scenario.

[Charlieandme]

Yes - I’ve read them but to me this seems different. This is my opinion. We can agree to disagree.

[sascha]

@Charlieandme

However, I think there are many others who are guilty of much worse and I don’t see the same sort of visceral response this video has sparked.

@Charlieandme

I’ve read them but to me this seems different.

Pardon?

I don’t think anyone on this thread has suggested that CDJ needs to receive the same treatment she gives the horse? The Parra thread deserves a re-read if you really think that the response to CDJ is so much more visceral.

[FitzE]

People are disgusted by Parra, not only for his treatment of horses but also of people. I don’t recall a single person justifying his behaviour or saying ‘other people do worse’ or anything like some of the pro-CD things here. CP and Helgstrand are just vilified, as they should be.

If you can point me to where people were pro-CP, that would be helpful for me to understand where you’re coming from. I only remember 100%: he’s a monster and should be in jail, which is even more than people are saying about CD.