Cheap ribbons and empty packets – Do events appreciate the clientele?

[KayBee]

[QUOTE=Highflyer;8220315]
The vet and farrier get an on-call fee. Lots of people get at least some expense money in order to make it possible to drive around getting things together.[/QUOTE]

Yep: the people who go to Kinkos to pick up the printouts and make another trip for late entries. The people who go to the hardware store to get paint to refresh fences, or go to the supermarket to pick up food and snacks for volunteers.

In my former career, I helped create corporate training events that lasted only a few days. The planning stages were long and there were an immense number of details to keep track of and deliver. I can’t imagine an event is that much different.

I would think hosting an event is like running a boarding barn - no one’s going to get rich doing it and there’s many more things to consider than you would imagine.

[Sticky_Situation]

I don’t think anyone believes that event organizers are getting rich from running events or using our entry money to finance a new yacht or vacation home in the Hamptons. But while the cost of running an event has undoubtedly risen over the years, so has the cost of keeping horses, taking lessons, entry fees, stall fees, fuel, etc. making it increasingly more expensive to do this as a hobby.

I realize that professionals who compete year round and are schooling a horse in Open Novice at a given event probably don’t care about a third-place ribbon or any other goodies they get for participating, they are simply there doing their job… And they likely won’t even bother to pick their ribbon up.

However, to the kids and amateurs who only have the opportunity to go to three events in a year, that third-place Novice ribbon probably means quite a bit (or even the grooming towel they got just for showing up, because it reminds them of the first time they went clean on Novice XC, even if they didn’t place).

Or maybe we are just a bunch of ungrateful spoiled brats for saying we miss the little things events used to provide.

[Jealoushe]

Those costs listed are ridiculous. Staff? I don’t think so…but maybe things are different in Ontario.

Here we show Open if we have competed a level above in the last two years. So if I take my baby horse Pre Entry I have to show Open, and hell yes I want a nice ribbon and will keep it and hang it up even if it’s an ugly brown 8 or 9th place. I’m not a pro, I’m an amateur…I have more than one horse I event. Each event is a big occasion for me and I want something nice to remember it by.

[JP60]

[QUOTE=CatchMeIfUCan;8220288]
Addressing JP60’s the above as an owner of a pro ridden horse, I appreciate the details too. Mike Plumb might be jumping from horse to horse, but I have my one horse that I paid a lot of money to get there. And I like giving them treats or getting the gloves they won or a free schooling. I save all of my horses’ ribbons and have their first ribbons and all of their blues displayed in my house and all the rest in decorative bowls. I sweat it out on the XC walks with my rider and talk about all of the difficult combinations that they will meet. I wake up at 4 am at the shows. I provide all the food for my rider and I and cook and plan. I hold my breath when they go around the course and hope they complete. The 4 other owners for my rider are the same.

Just because we are getting experience for the horse and have a bigger goal in mind doesn’t mean that we treat it like it’s nothing. I still pay $1000s of dollars to get to that show (instead of taking a much needed vacation).[/QUOTE]
You had me up to that last thought. it is exactly that which is starting to permeate more throughout the lower levels. I truly respect what you said about your involvement in your horse(s) and how you engage with the Pro, but we still have (pardon the pun) competing interests and focal points between the three.

*You are working a program to move a horse up with a bigger goal in mind
*Mike is basically doing a job (and I would assume enjoying), but he moves on to the next horse which might be his, might not
*I, a never to see the up side of training eventer, who has one horse I’ve spent all my own time working with (well and my trainer), falling off of, hugging when he finished a move up, lavished with treats when he saved my butt on a championship course and whom I would never think to sell.

We three come to an event with vastly different feelings and futures and were I to go out on a limb, LadyB’s original post (connected to AJ) was more about that third group, because we don’t have that bigger goal in mind, we have the one that says “OMG I actually placed”.

Case in point, 2 years ago I went to Chatt Hills to compete at BN. I had to go alone (no trainer) and it was a max course. It also had rained all week, the grounds were a mess, the courses were a mess, warmup was a mess. We did okay on dressage, only 5 secs over OT on a soggy/heart pumping course for a new to BN rider. Sunday I watch as the advanced jumped, then P, then T and after each one they had a victory lap for the ribbons. I watched Becky Holder, who must have done this a hundred times, go round and round and I dreamed of me and Sterling doing the same one day.

By 5 the only people left were BN and I didn’t even jump warm up it was so bad. I was 7th, no chance for ribbon, but my boy rocked that course double clear. The next three riders either fell, dropped multiple rails or refused. 7th to 4th and I thought “OMG, I’m going to get my victory lap”.

Instead, when the last rider went the ring steward said "We’re done, go get your ribbons in the office.

WHAT???

So I go back to take care of my horse and finally go to get my 4th place only to discover the office was closed.

WHAT???

I don’t think you can even begin to understand how upset I was over a stupid < $5 ribbon. I watched Professionals get honored, but the plebeians need not be bothered.

It is that attention to detail that matters, really matters to folks like me, new, one horse, maybe no more after. I do not take away from your support and involvement, but just finishing, for me and many others, that is the World!!

[CatchMeIfUCan]

You are always trying to find how others are different versus relating to how we are the same. I fully disagree that we have competing interests.

Bigger goal in mind might be a more maxed out Novice the next weekend, so we are “warming up” with an easier Novice course two weeks before to get the horse and rider more exposure and experience. Don’t tell me you have never chosen an easy course as a warm up at the beginning of the year to ease into things. That is exactly the same thing as having a bigger goal in mind. I seem to remember that you want to go to the AECs - well you can’t aim for that or plan your season around it because it is a “bigger goal in mind.” You being ok with time faults on a soggy course is the same thing as using it as experience for a different event when it is drier or just as wet. We want every experience for the horse to be a positive one, and you better believe we take it very seriously and want the horse to do the best they can. It is horse welfare. If you are only riding for your ribbon (which is how you come off), then I feel sorry for your horse.

And you better believe we (my rider and I) value that smaller novice course and want that ribbon as a token of how well the horse did and appreciate it when we get it. Both my rider and I would be mad if we didn’t get the ribbon they earned at the end of an event. She LOVES giving them to me. She hangs all of hers (that she doesn’t have us take) up from the year on a wall in the barn. She always appreciates when she does well, and it is NEVER a given.

I am an amateur so I work my @$$ off for ribbons on my own horse. I know that feeling. Ketchup spilled on my horse’s 4th place ribbon on the way home once, and I cleaned it and cleaned it to try to get it out. And I get the same feeling for the ribbons on the horses I own. And so does my pro. She always makes sure to pick them up, and we keep track of events that have victory gallops because we love those.

As a side note, I don’t really care what the ribbon looks like. I just like having it and the joy of adding it to my collection.

[OverandOnward]

Some people complaining about the cost of ribbons have clearly never ordered ribbons for a competition of any kind!

For a small show especially, silk ribbons can be one of the most costly elements of the event. For a large show the bill for silk ribbons is in the thousands. Believe it or not, the cost of silk ribbons can be the show stopper, literally.

Smart organizers went to using ribbons without dates, printed only with the name of the event or the venue, to help make it possible to continue offering the event, literally. As well as reducing the waste of unused ribbons. That is true of many types of competitions that give ribbons, not just horses.

Ribbons must be ordered in blocks, not exactly how many you need. So you must order a block that is more than you need in order to have enough. If you add more classes or divisions, you must order the next block amount up to have enough, not just that number of additional ribbons.

That’s why the actual cost of the awarded ribbons does not work out to $2 per ribbon as the referenced editorial stated. It is some multiple of a hundred or more in cost for all the ribbons, with leftover sets.

And the next show is the same thing again. So absolutely to control costs it is important to be able to use last show’s leftover sets. Not to mention that is the way to go for anyone who is conservation minded and doesn’t want to see stacks upon stacks of useless dated leftover ribbons from all the shows in the country.

[JP60]

Maybe my last thought, and I am sure organizers understand this, but when we look at the entry fee, that is only part of the competitors costs and as/if it goes up, it impacts the rest of the budget.

Consider (my own numbers0
Gas - Around $100 for any show two hours away
Stabling - depends, but lately, on grounds can be over $100 a night (Chatt Hills). I’ve discovered local places, B&B to offset but you have to trailer in
Ground fees -$15-$50. Understandable
Hotel: yes there is the trailer and I once slept in a open stall, but I’m old enough that a bed is prefered. 70-100 a night.
Food - $200 for the weekend.

So I’m up to over potentially $700 without the entry fee. hmmm…almost makes it the cheapest thing about the weekend.

It is a given that the sport is expensive and when doing local shows the costs drop a lot, because I trailer in, but if the entry fee started to go up more, it is the decider then on whether to go or not.

One show I was curious how much time I actually spent competing. Not warming up, not hacking, competing. At BN it was < 4 mins dressage, < 6 mins cross country, < 2 mins stadium for a whopping total of… < 15 minutes active participation in the show. using USEA numbers, $235 for 15 minutes or $16 a minute ($940 an hour).

Thank goodness I am bad at math for knowing that, I’d wonder about my ROI. Instead I measure it against the joy I feel finishing cross country or a beautiful dressage and say…yeah, I’ll do this again.

There is no real answer to all of this, but the idea of making the competitors feel like it is more than a show up ride, and go would help in good feelings. A pre party or Sat night party (BYOB of course) and ways to get to meet people? I use to go to regattas and after the days racing we all got together to meet and talk about the day. it made in an event, not a moment.

[JP60]

@CatchMeIfUCan;8220447

It is horse welfare. If you are only riding for your ribbon (which is how you come off), then I feel sorry for your horse.

I cannot believe you wrote that. Not once did I even come close to belittling or denigrating your view, I even stated that I respect it and understand, yet you respond with a comment that does not even come close to reflecting who I am as a person, a rider, and how I tend to my horse.

Even more is to say you feel sorry for my horse like some how I am a bad owner. That horse is my life. He gets better care then me. He is the only horse I got and I want nothing, nothing bad to happen to him. I spend time, sweat, money to ensure I ride him to the best of his capabilities and when needed, take a step back to make sure we are really ready.

That you even try to assume that I ride for small pieces of colored cloth when you have no idea the path I have come as a rider. A blue ribbon to me meant we finished, or we got a better dressage score or he jumped a clean round on a tough course. It means that we made a course look so smooth that people came up to comment on how lovely and happy my horse looked on course and none of that EVER factored into riding for your damn ribbons you assume I do.

Did you even bother to think how it sounded, how I might feel when you wrote “feel sorry for your horse”.

Man, I’m having a nice discussion about show costs, factors that make be changing, yes, pointing out different reasons why people come, and you blind side me with a mean comment that added no value to anything here. I’m both angered and sad at the same time.

[CatchMeIfUCan]

Maybe you should rethink the many degrading things you say on almost every thread about how the sport is about people who are involved in the upper levels. And maybe I need to figure out how to use the ignore button. Your constant dislike for people that support the sport in a different (well and for me as a backyard amateur, the same way) way than you spoils the forums for me.

And if-then statements show cause and effect, not definite truth. I said “which is how you come off” because that is also indefinite. I don’t know it to be true, but when you write so passionately about a ribbon, that comes off to me as a big focus for you.

[retreadeventer]

This is sort of an annual thread with same sort of griping, replying, examples, personal experience, drag the ULR’s in there somehow, and bash a few classes of people…and the constructive ideas are, where?

[frugalannie]

[QUOTE=JP60;8220261]

So to answer my own question from before, according to USEA, your average entry fee breaks down like this:

[TABLE=“width: 310”]
[TR]
[TD]Category[/TD]
[TD]USEA Est[/TD]
[TD]Pct[/TD]
[TD]Entry[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Officials[/TD]
[TD] $ 7,385.00[/TD]
[TD=“align: right”]20%[/TD]
[TD] $ 48.12[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Staff[/TD]
[TD] $ 11,350.00[/TD]
[TD=“align: right”]31%[/TD]
[TD] $ 73.96[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Safety[/TD]
[TD] $ 2,000.00[/TD]
[TD=“align: right”]6%[/TD]
[TD] $ 13.03[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]XC Course[/TD]
[TD] $ 4,350.00[/TD]
[TD=“align: right”]12%[/TD]
[TD] $ 28.34[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Show Jump[/TD]
[TD] $ 600.00[/TD]
[TD=“align: right”]2%[/TD]
[TD] $ 3.91[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Hospitality[/TD]
[TD] $ 3,980.00[/TD]
[TD=“align: right”]11%[/TD]
[TD] $ 25.93[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Volunteers[/TD]
[TD] $ 3,100.00[/TD]
[TD=“align: right”]9%[/TD]
[TD] $ 20.20[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Prizes[/TD]
[TD] $ 700.00[/TD]
[TD=“align: right”]2%[/TD]
[TD] $ 4.56[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Administration[/TD]
[TD] $ 1,750.00[/TD]
[TD=“align: right”]5%[/TD]
[TD] $ 1.40[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Advertizing[/TD]
[TD] $ 850.00[/TD]
[TD=“align: right”]2%[/TD]
[TD] $ 5.54[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Totals[/TD]
[TD] $ 36,065.00[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD] $ 235.00[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Break Even:[/TD]
[TD=“align: right”]153 Entries[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

.[/QUOTE]

I haven’t been on an organizing committee for quite a while, but I volunteer every year in every capacity that I can for Groton House, which is my “home town” event. So I’ll add a few comments from my observations and experience owning a farm in the area.

I think that may be on the cheap side for officials, but bow to the USEA’s knowledge. Staff? Some events have a paid secretary, paid announcer, paid scorer, stadium CD. Can’t speak to that. But I know darn well that any regular staff of the venue spends weeks before the event (and probably at least a full week after) mowing, grooming galloping lanes, repairing, setting things up (tents anyone?), ensuring there’s water and shavings in stabling, PA in day trailers, places for judges to sit, getting rid of wasp nests in jumps someone might sit on to watch, removing and replacing sections of fence, emptying trash and picking up that which didn’t get to the bin, pulling out stuck vehicles, helping fix flat tires and jumping dead batteries, and just generally being there to do whatever needs doing at the organizers request or many times just doing it because it needs to be done. That staff time isn’t cheap, and it really isn’t part of the farm’s normal operating budget, so it should be allocated to the event. And they’re doing it in addition to their regular jobs. I often think how glad they must be when it’s over!

Volunteers always get something. At GHF we get great t-shirts most years (I have a full set of “I scored at Groton House” shirts), some years hats, one year fanny packs :lol:. They also get food (which maybe the USEA puts under hospitality) and lots of water. Officials also get fed and watered during the day, as do the vet, EMTs, farrier, stabling crew, parking crew, PA guy, announcer and etc. And there are competitor parties, I’ve heard. :winkgrin:

I’m delighted that some venues have volunteer EMTs. I don’t think it’s the rule. And then the town requires a policeman to direct traffic at the end of the driveway. Insurance isn’t listed as an expense either.

I’m assuming that volunteers will paint fences, set up dressage and stadium rings, hang banners, organize the vendors and etc.

Honestly, I think that the expenses as listed are bare bones and underestimated for the northeast corridor.

Sorry to be so wordy, but it’s a huge, expensive undertaking!

[FlightCheck]

Speaking as a coach, a competitor, a controller, and an announcer, I DON’T WANT A VOLUNTEER EMT.

Here in Florida we are fortunate to have SafetyOnScene (SOS). Due to the fact that they have been doing shows in FL for nearly 10 years, they know the venues, the riders, and are a delight to work with. Valuable time is not wasted “directing the EMTs” because they have already looked at the courses, the best routes, the potential problems, and they are invaluable.

[Sticky_Situation]

[QUOTE=retreadeventer;8220508]
This is sort of an annual thread with same sort of griping, replying, examples, personal experience, drag the ULR’s in there somehow, and bash a few classes of people…and the constructive ideas are, where?[/QUOTE]

I don’t mean to be bashing anyone in my comments. Honestly, if I had been around Rolex or regularly riding at the upper levels, and was competing almost every weekend at someplace or another, I probably wouldn’t care all that much about a third place ribbon in the Open Novice at XYZ one-day HT unless there was a really good backstory.

As far as the actual cost of ribbons, I don’t doubt that they cost quite a bit more than the average outsider would expect. However, the H/J shows (not necessarily even recognized ones) have more divisions, 3-5 classes per division, ribbons in every class, plus tricolors in every division, so that is a whole lot more ribbons than the typical event!

[FlightCheck]

Sticky, that is true.
But they also don’t have to build XC courses - which cost thousands for each individual fence.

[Foxtrot_s]

Having been on the organizing end for years and years and years, some of these threads make me tired. We survive on the enthusiasm of dozens of volunteers, someone who will go out and get sponsorship gifts for all the prizes and if anybody wants $$ in an envelope, then the fee has to go up.
Lots of events cost more because more people are paid and it is going to get worse if the culture of volunteerism and giving starts to languish.
As many of these posters can attest, it costs lots of money and where it goes is like a flush down a toilet with course builders, good judges, etc . etc.

[arapaloosa_lady]

[QUOTE=GoForAGallop;8219674]
That being said…what do you want INSTEAD of the ribbons? Cash prizes is ridiculous, the money is not there to support it, and people who didn’t win first would still want some ribbons. You can’t complain without having some good suggestions.

Personally, I can’t think of anything that is reasonable that would make me feel like I had “something to show for it”, because I am one of those who just enjoys the experience and the photos and training I get from it and frequently loses my ribbon by the time I get home, so clearly we’re looking at the situation from different hilltops.[/QUOTE]

I’d rather have a nice photograph of my horse than a ribbon - pay for a photographer for the day & hand the competitor a copy at awards? Framed nicely for top places.

[KayBee]

[QUOTE=frugalannie;8220511]

secretary
announcer
scorer
stadium CD
regular venue staff (mowing, grooming galloping lanes, repairing, setting things up (tents anyone?), ensuring there’s water and shavings in stabling, PA in day trailers, places for judges to sit, getting rid of wasp nests in jumps someone might sit on to watch, removing and replacing sections of fence, emptying trash and picking up that which didn’t get to the bin, pulling out stuck vehicles, helping fix flat tires and jumping dead batteries, and just generally being there to do whatever needs doing

Sorry to be so wordy, but it’s a huge, expensive undertaking![/QUOTE]

Thanks for this: there are so many aspects to an event that are invisible to competitors. And the needs would have to be scaled up or down depending on whether it’s an upper or lower-level event and/or how many entrants there are and/or whether it’s a 1- or 3-day event.

[asterix]

I agree that competitor parties sound nice but I have to tell you that as a volunteer (I usually scribe and announce SJ) we and the regular staff are SO exhausted at the end of the day or weekend it’s all we can do to sit in a heap on the grass drinking a beer. Many times everyone has been outside in the boiling heat or pouring rain for 10 hours and we are wiped out.

[JP60]

[QUOTE=CatchMeIfUCan;8220491]
Maybe you should rethink the many degrading things you say on almost every thread about how the sport is about people who are involved in the upper levels. And maybe I need to figure out how to use the ignore button. Your constant dislike for people that support the sport in a different (well and for me as a backyard amateur, the same way) way than you spoils the forums for me.

And if-then statements show cause and effect, not definite truth. I said “which is how you come off” because that is also indefinite. I don’t know it to be true, but when you write so passionately about a ribbon, that comes off to me as a big focus for you.[/QUOTE]

I apologize for highjacking this thread, but I am tired of being label negative when the worst I am is passionate about this sport as a whole. I don’t mind a good debate, I love learning and yes, I challenge authority but I do not denigrate anyone.

I wrote passionately about a moment when I saw an in-equality in how a venue treated its riders. Had you really read it the key phrase was I in 7th, but we still had an awesome round.

Definition of degrade:

: to treat (someone or something) poorly and without respect
: to make the quality of (something) worse
: to cause (something complex) to break down into simple substances or parts

Please cite where I’ve done that in any thread.

To say “which is how you come off” is an observation, not an if then. If that statement was not “true” then why did you say it?

You stated if I ride for ribbons you feel sorry for my horse, yet I have now stated that I do not ride for ribbons, I am passionate about my horse and his welfare…could you at least apologize before ignoring me?

That is the else in your point.

To retread, I did toss a couple of ideas out the bigger one being a competitor party. I also suggested doing something to bring us competitors together at the show and make it less a drive by. I’d love t-shirt (that was a standard for regattas) or a memento of the event, because it might just be the last one for some, the first for others.

Listen, none of this is easy. I’ve dreamed of running show for a couple of years if I had the money and it could be the worst thing ever, but honestly, do we not want more people to think that way and not “I’m going somewhere else”. We want competitors understanding the costs, we want the organizers understanding the feeling of competitors of all ranks. These are the things that build the sport and how is that a bad thing?

Solutions? I already stated we need to think outside the box and focus on the base to start.

[lecoeurtriste]

[QUOTE=Sticky Situation;8219715]
However, if you read the actual article, it’s not so much that the author doesn’t feel she is getting her money’s worth out of the experience as far as the riding goes (although the question of where all the money is used is mentioned), but that the shows have become somewhat less personal, less of a ‘special occasion’ and more ‘just another competition in a series of competitions’ … In other words, more like the H/J world where the different venues are less of special events to look forward to and more of just another opportunity to earn points.[/QUOTE]

Having organized and secretaried for both USEA and unrecognized HTs for nearly 10 years at a “family farm”, I can tell you that many riders began abandoning the smaller events for destination events in 2008. I think this was a combination of the economy tanking and more eventers traveling with their coaches (versus “going it alone”). We always offered a competitors’ party (free) and raffle (free)…and when low entries forced shifting to a one day, stabled riders were given tack stalls to use and everyone got a schooling voucher to use in the future. Just in NC, we lost: Ft. Bragg, Pinehurst, and the Ark within 5 years–all competitor-friendly, fun events. When the “destination” events are hosting 300-600 riders, it’s difficult to have that same “family” feel (yes, I’m sure it can/is done, but it’s more difficult)–and it does become more of a finely-tuned assembly line to keep 1800+ rides moving along safely.