Cheap ribbons and empty packets – Do events appreciate the clientele?

[soloudinhere]

[QUOTE=FlightCheck;8220538]
Speaking as a coach, a competitor, a controller, and an announcer, I DON’T WANT A VOLUNTEER EMT.

Here in Florida we are fortunate to have SafetyOnScene (SOS). Due to the fact that they have been doing shows in FL for nearly 10 years, they know the venues, the riders, and are a delight to work with. Valuable time is not wasted “directing the EMTs” because they have already looked at the courses, the best routes, the potential problems, and they are invaluable.[/QUOTE]

A volunteer EMT may well know the local area or even be a horse person. Many small towns are staffed with volunteer fire and emergency departments.

I don’t maintain my licensure but when I did I did several events. There’s nothing that guarantees a professional ambulance service does the things you list, or that a volunteer one doesn’t.

[JP60]

[QUOTE=soloudinhere;8220738]
A volunteer EMT may well know the local area or even be a horse person. Many small towns are staffed with volunteer fire and emergency departments.

I don’t maintain my licensure but when I did I did several events. There’s nothing that guarantees a professional ambulance service does the things you list, or that a volunteer one doesn’t.[/QUOTE]

As an ex volunteer rescue squad member…thank you.

[Sticky_Situation]

[QUOTE=lecoeurtriste;8220732]
Having organized and secretaried for both USEA and unrecognized HTs for nearly 10 years at a “family farm”, I can tell you that many riders began abandoning the smaller events for destination events in 2008. I think this was a combination of the economy tanking and more eventers traveling with their coaches (versus “going it alone”). We always offered a competitors’ party (free) and raffle (free)…and when low entries forced shifting to a one day, stabled riders were given tack stalls to use and everyone got a schooling voucher to use in the future. Just in NC, we lost: Ft. Bragg, Pinehurst, and the Ark within 5 years–all competitor-friendly, fun events. When the “destination” events are hosting 300-600 riders, it’s difficult to have that same “family” feel (yes, I’m sure it can/is done, but it’s more difficult)–and it does become more of a finely-tuned assembly line to keep 1800+ rides moving along safely.[/QUOTE]

I think this definitely is a big part of it. I personally love the smaller “family farm” type events … However, the competitions I can actually attend are restricted to those that happen to fall on one of my weekends off and aren’t ridiculously far away, which sometimes makes it impossible for me to go to certain events that I really enjoy.

[FlightCheck]

I stand by my statement. I want a professional crew with proper equipment and knowledge. Perhaps “volunteer” was not the best word to use. I want a professional that I don’t have to wake up, or worry about their vehicle getting stuck, who is used to answering a radio and not wandering off to watch something more interesting than where they are stationed.

And, SoLoud, etc., whose liability insurance were you working under? (that statement syntax sounds weird, but I can’t figure out why) .

I believe we are talking about the same thing, only different wording.

[toady123]

@frugalannie;8220511

That staff time isn’t cheap, and it really isn’t part of the farm’s normal operating budget, so it should be allocated to the event. And they’re doing it in addition to their regular jobs. I often think how glad they must be when it’s over!

THIS. I am constantly amazed when people question staffing costs or ’ net revenues’ collected from an event- it seems that people feel that the manpower required to put on an event should cost nothing.

People tend to focus on the costs of the event day itself (e.g. stewards, judges, hospitality, rentals, ribbons, etc etc), but they are only one part of the puzzle.

There are no magical fairies dropping from the sky to build courses, paint fences, mow rings, manage entries, order supplies, negotiate sponsorships, coordinate staffing, and the MULTITUDE of other tasks that go into making the day a success (plus the staffing on the day as others have noted). This costs money!

There seems to be this culture that if a farm “makes money” off an event they are money hungry hoarders. But they are offering a service and people are needed to offer it. Do these people not deserve to be compensated for their time (which any net revenue, or integrated staffing costs in a budget would provide)?

Would you expect a plumber to show up to your house and fix your toilet for free?! Probably not. Running events should be treated as a business. Not a charity. And this is why they continue to disappear, because people expect charity - organizers are treated like they should only break even and rely on support of volunteers to make it all happen.

[Blugal]

It hasn’t been mentioned much but the capital costs aren’t being taken into account here either. Someone has to own the land upon which the event takes place, pay its property taxes and insurance.

I once talked to an organizer who puts on many shows, H/J, dressage, Pony Club, and events. He said events cost him twice the expenses and man-hours of the dressage or H/J shows, and he has to charge less for entries and stabling because we are so cheap! He only does it because he loves eventing. That venue puts on 4 events per year, and allows schooling almost year-round. HOW LUCKY ARE WE.

One solution to the “problems” being put forward on this thread is - be the change you want to see.

Phone up your favourite organizer and say, “I love your event! I would love to make it better! Can you put me in charge of ordering ribbons this year? I would also love to phone up potential sponsors, get donations, and stuff the envelopes with them! And, it would be really nice if the competitors could get together after XC to celebrate together in a sanctioned way - I’ll organize it!”

[event_ryder]

Quite happy with my plain packet with maybe a carrot or two for my horse. I don’t mind my basic ribbons either. Of course I like my big fancy ones I got from the one big fancy event I went to- but not because of the ribbon itself, but the fact I placed against some very solid competition. I do agree it that in events with large divisions they are split to manageable sizes (20-25 riders) if possible so more people can hopefully have opportunity to place. I’d rather have basic ribbons and packets though if it keeps entry prices low and manageable, and that I can still have quality courses to ride.

[myrna]

i feel i must respond to the volunteer payments…my husband was one of the original group that started our equestrian park here.the hours and days and weeks that he puts into every year are astounding.and it goes on all year,not just the month before the big event.when he is down there “volunteering” he has to hire someone to fill in for him here at home,our tractor and truck are down there weeks at a time.we put up officials here at home whenever it is needed(and love to have them).There is a cost involved and we can’t afford to absorb it ourselves so we do submit bills to our executive.Love the sport but no one here is independently wealthy.

[soloudinhere]

[QUOTE=FlightCheck;8220846]
I stand by my statement. I want a professional crew with proper equipment and knowledge. Perhaps “volunteer” was not the best word to use. I want a professional that I don’t have to wake up, or worry about their vehicle getting stuck, who is used to answering a radio and not wandering off to watch something more interesting than where they are stationed.

And, SoLoud, etc., whose liability insurance were you working under? (that statement syntax sounds weird, but I can’t figure out why) .

I believe we are talking about the same thing, only different wording.[/QUOTE]

When I worked a volunteer squad we were permitted to work under the squad’s licensure and insurance as long as the show did not pay us. This is common among volunteer squads that I know of.

Many volunteer squads will happily donate the time as long as they have sufficient staff to also operate regular service area support.

It’s no different than hiring a town ambulance squad - the difference is that staff donate their time. This allows many areas that could not support 24 hour professional staff to have emergency services. These people are often highly trained people who can’t do emergency work as a full time gig but will donate time to a squad to support extra events of interest - for me that would be horse events.

Odds are if you saw me working at an event it was probably one I had ridden at several times before. And I knew to tell them to cut your boots off along the back seam so they wouldn’t be ruined

I hate to see volunteer squads denigrated against professionals - professional squads are where people make careers, volunteer ones are where people are doing it solely because they care about the safety of the community.

[frugalannie]

[QUOTE=toady123;8220855]
THIS. I am constantly amazed when people question staffing costs or ’ net revenues’ collected from an event- it seems that people feel that the manpower required to put on an event should cost nothing.

Would you expect a plumber to show up to your house and fix your toilet for free?! Probably not. Running events should be treated as a business. Not a charity. And this is why they continue to disappear, because people expect charity - organizers are treated like they should only break even and rely on support of volunteers to make it all happen.[/QUOTE]

Nonetheless, I am aware that most event organizers are subsidizing their events to make them happen. The one event I know best was subsidized well into 5 figures back in the 1990s. I can’t imagine what has happened in the intervening years.

If you want to make a difference in a given event, VOLUNTEER! Not just on the day: in the off-season when all the preps are going on. I know someone mentioned this above, but find some sponsors and host a competitor party if there isn’t one already. If it’s a ship-in venue, host a wine/soda and cheese welcome with a local sponsor or coffee and donuts in the morning as people arrive. Paint stadium fences in the fall before it gets too cold. Critically important GET KIDS INVOLVED!!! The core of volunteers is age-ing out, and we need younger volunteers who will commit to being part of the events going forward. Groton House has a local coach who brings all of his students to volunteer as well as volunteering himself. Hooray for him and his kids!

[KayBee]

[QUOTE=frugalannie;8221039]
If you want to make a difference in a given event, VOLUNTEER! Not just on the day: in the off-season when all the preps are going on. I know someone mentioned this above, but find some sponsors and host a competitor party if there isn’t one already. If it’s a ship-in venue, host a wine/soda and cheese welcome with a local sponsor or coffee and donuts in the morning as people arrive. Paint stadium fences in the fall before it gets too cold. Critically important GET KIDS INVOLVED!!! The core of volunteers is age-ing out, and we need younger volunteers who will commit to being part of the events going forward. Groton House has a local coach who brings all of his students to volunteer as well as volunteering himself. Hooray for him and his kids![/QUOTE]

Competitor parties, for me, are a thing for a 3-day “destination” event (Millbrook, Stuart, etc). Yes, who wouldn’t love a free cup of coffee when arriving after a long haul, but most of the events I go to have 200 to 300 entries, and people are arriving at all times of day. It seems a bit hit or miss.

Good point about volunteering BEFORE the show. Even if the venue isn’t near you, there are things you can do: coordinate volunteer efforts, drum up sponsors, maybe even remote paperwork (get all entries into an Excel spread sheet)?

And as for volunteering – please remember that even the “day-of only” volunteers put in a long day. For me, my most recent volunteer effort meant waking up at 5 to meet up with the carpool at 6 to have our meeting at 7 and then out to volunteer in the rain.

Yes, BN competitors (or, “last division of the day” competitors) can get short shrift – at Horse Park, our XC was delayed by a half hour which… did not matter, because stadium was an hour behind. Did they want us to hustle over to XC after stadium out of concern for the volunteers? You betcha. But the show secretary stayed through the protest period to award ribbons which meant that, by the time she was able to leave, she (and quite a few other volunteers) had probably put in a 13-hour day.

[JP60]

[QUOTE=frugalannie;8221039]
Nonetheless, I am aware that most event organizers are subsidizing their events to make them happen. The one event I know best was subsidized well into 5 figures back in the 1990s. I can’t imagine what has happened in the intervening years.

If you want to make a difference in a given event, VOLUNTEER! Not just on the day: in the off-season when all the preps are going on. I know someone mentioned this above, but find some sponsors and host a competitor party if there isn’t one already. If it’s a ship-in venue, host a wine/soda and cheese welcome with a local sponsor or coffee and donuts in the morning as people arrive. Paint stadium fences in the fall before it gets too cold. Critically important GET KIDS INVOLVED!!! The core of volunteers is age-ing out, and we need younger volunteers who will commit to being part of the events going forward. Groton House has a local coach who brings all of his students to volunteer as well as volunteering himself. Hooray for him and his kids![/QUOTE]
That is so true and why the idea of reaching out beyond the typical horse group is one way to go. People volunteer to help, but it is hard to volunteer when you don’t know who needs help. How often have the “family” farms reached out to local communities, high schools, middle schools to see if they can get some help. Booster clubs sometimes need a place to host a fund raiser. If a farm opened the property to them they could in return help on show day or preparing. Some high schools have shop classes and perhaps they can be co-opted to build more standard fences like coops, roll tops, tables, and ramps. Students get real life experience/education, organizer saves some money from fence building.

While paying for a CD and builder is a must, perhaps we can start to dump the fancy jumps, again at “family” farms not big name venues running FEI level stuff, and go back to more plain, but well built fences and questions. Carved logs, fancy shaped fences, decorations, these are not really needed for as I pointed out another time, we spend a few seconds jumping over it and we are not there to ogle fences, but jump over them. The alternate for getting fancy is getting local advertising on jumps or sponsorship to help reduce the cost. Have kids decorate jumps then put their name on it as recognition might get more of them involved. hold contests for decoration with a small prize for the winner, chosen from the riders who compete (thus walk the course).

The last place I’d want to put my boy scout volunteers is on parking duty. I’d want them jump judging or working stadium so they get up close and personal with horses. It might inspire a couple boys to think the riding is more than tight pants.

So retreader, specific ideas, good or bad, but I’m putting them out there. If tried and they didn’t work I’d love to hear why. If not tried, then maybe some farm might see if it helps. In my minds eye I see how Eventing can be a draw for the greater community, not just a moment for riders.

USEA did a great job putting together a document of the nuts and bolts of putting on an Event. Maybe the next step is compiling more information of the breakdown of costs with tips on how farms/venues can save time and money with the hope it gets passed on to the customer (competitor).

We don’t want to lose any more events and while it is important for us competitors to greatly appreciate the volunteers, the grounds, the staff working hard, the reciprocal is that Events need to look at how they can continue to draw teams in, keep them happy, and keep them wanting to come back. A few dollars up front in bling might mean more draw over time. Plain fences, but a great welcoming party could keep people coming back.

[LadyB]

Here is your rebuttal.
http://eventingconnect.today/2015/07/09/the-cost-of-ribbons/

[Highflyer]

I guess if all you really want is a nice ribbon, skip the event and just buy one. For $500 you should be able to an awesome one.

[KayBee]

[QUOTE=JP60;8221164]
So retreader, specific ideas, good or bad, but I’m putting them out there. If tried and they didn’t work I’d love to hear why. If not tried, then maybe some farm might see if it helps. In my minds eye I see how Eventing can be a draw for the greater community, not just a moment for riders.

USEA did a great job putting together a document of the nuts and bolts of putting on an Event. Maybe the next step is compiling more information of the breakdown of costs with tips on how farms/venues can save time and money with the hope it gets passed on to the customer (competitor).

We don’t want to lose any more events and while it is important for us competitors to greatly appreciate the volunteers, the grounds, the staff working hard, the reciprocal is that Events need to look at how they can continue to draw teams in, keep them happy, and keep them wanting to come back. A few dollars up front in bling might mean more draw over time. Plain fences, but a great welcoming party could keep people coming back.[/QUOTE]

Maybe we need a thread with specific ideas? Or people who could volunteer what they’ve tried that’s worked?

Honestly, it sounds like, from a volunteer perspective, you need at least two people, possibly more, peole working with the secretary at least 6 months out:

Sponsor recruiter
Vendor recruiter (although, if this isn’t a big show, this is likely just “what food truck can we get?”)
Fundraising person (a 50/50 raffle or a raffle of donated products?)
Competitor party
Volunteer recruiter for:
Weeks/months prior to show
Fence painting
Fence building
?

Week/day prior to show
Dressage arena setup
Stadium arena setup
XC course decoration
Packet stuffing
Volunteer training (ring stewards, dressage scorers, etc)
Assignment of show-day duties

Day of show
Parking
Dressage score tallying
Jump judging
Scoring
etc, etc, etc

[Rain]

[QUOTE=Lady Eboshi;8219722]
Go Hunter Pacing instead! The ribbons are big and fluffy and are given out for things like “oldest horse and rider combination” as well as on time; the XC lasts for up to 2 hours (with no dressage or stadium), and they even serve you LUNCH. With WINE! Entry fees usually $50 to $75 bucks.[/QUOTE]

Absolutely!!! It may be different in different parts of the country, but here in northern VA/southern MD, frequently the hunter pace courses use part of the xc course. They are also usually on well-groomed trails with good footing, unlike “going for a trail ride” where you may encounter lots of rocks or whatever. For between $35-50 you get all that Lady E mentioned, plus often the opportunity to ride on private land.

[devvie]

I lease a horse. I’m grateful that I can afford to ride. My coach is an eventing coach. I’m happy that I can afford lessons once a month. So far this year, I’ve been able to afford one jumper schooling school. I’m saving up to get out to ONE or TWO horse trials this year.

I don’t begrudge the show fees. They are what they are. When I can afford, I will enjoy. Until then, hey, I get to ride just about every day.

[trubandloki]

@Sticky Situation;8220553

As far as the actual cost of ribbons, I don’t doubt that they cost quite a bit more than the average outsider would expect. However, the H/J shows (not necessarily even recognized ones) have more divisions, 3-5 classes per division, ribbons in every class, plus tricolors in every division, so that is a whole lot more ribbons than the typical event![/QUOTE]
Yes, but the riders pay for each of those classes individually.

And, as someone else said already, each division’s set up does not cost anywhere near what those cross country jumps cost, where each height is a different jump.

[QUOTE=soloudinhere;8220738]Many small towns are staffed with volunteer fire and emergency departments.

In my part of the world, I believe to get the volunteer ambulance to come sit at your event (not specifically horse event, I mean any event) you have to make a donation to the department.

[soloudinhere]

[QUOTE=trubandloki;8221450]

In my part of the world, I believe to get the volunteer ambulance to come sit at your event (not specifically horse event, I mean any event) you have to make a donation to the department.[/QUOTE]

We didn’t require it unless we couldn’t get enough staff to volunteer to work the event. You need at least two, preferably 3, for an ambulance.

If you just wanted an onsite medic and didn’t want the bus to sit there all day, any one of us could volunteer under the banner of the service and be there as an on-foot attendant for free.

[Kodiak]

I agree with the suggestion that, if you want nice ribbons and other prizes or perks, the surest way have that change is to volunteer and help make it happen.

One reason it’s overlooked is that the ribbons are literally one of the smallest, least important details when you’re looking at the big picture logistics of running a safe, good quality event. And the reason for haphazard hospitality and lack of ‘goodies’ is that those things, again, are icing on the cake AND take a tremendous number of hours to have donated, physically get and set up, thank donors, staff during the event, etc.

Every organizer at our recent event shamelessly robbed from the group handling prizes and hospitality because that’s just how the priorities had to work out. So, yeah, if it’s important enough to gripe about online, it should be important enough to help fix. Go volunteer and be the change you want to see.