ClipClopNYC '14 is officially on hold

[D_BaldStockings]

[QUOTE=Angela Freda;7177337]
And there would be ample time to put the event on hold the month before or cancel then as well.
Planning ClipClop and trying to save the industry are not mutually exclusive activities, but really should function hand in hand…

Does each carriage carry with them a petition for the guests/customers to sign?
Why not?
Do they hand out brochures highlighting the issue and asking customers, and passersby to go somewhere online to learn more and to sign a supportive petition? Why not?
Do they hand out info on ClipClop?[/QUOTE]

This is a very good post.

One might even add the info that the Mayor’s office might choose to revoke licensing after the election and please support the Carriage horses staying in NY?

Maybe even attach a copy inside the carriage permanently.

[MHM]

@Bluey;7179368

That is like offering a carrot and then pulling it out of reach.

I would think, people honestly wanting to help would do their asking first, then offer the carrot, if they truly meant to do so, not play games with their offerings and then come tell about it all.:no:

Like the poster on this thread who offered a tour of the carriage facility in New York, and then withdrew the offer shortly afterwards?

@Bluey;7179391

I have been in several boards of directors and you have to learn to get along to get something done.

That’s very true. Perhaps you should remind some of the pro-carriage posters of that fact.

[QUOTE=Lynnwood;7179521]Tha, MHM, EVA, Laura you know what the most incredible aspect of this to long back and forth is ?

That it is allowed to happen and no matter your positions each are allowed to have a say to debate to engage each other.
[/QUOTE]

That’s because most of the posters on this BB are used to following the guidelines here, which state that everyone must be polite and respectful, not rude and insulting, even when they disagree. Perhaps some people should review the terms of service they agreed to when they signed up for the site.

[Alagirl]

[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;7179706]
From my reading of this, there are not resources to hold this event?

But no one has banned, denied or blocked your holding it, correct?

So is the defense is now -what? A legal motion to stop the refusal to license?

Or??

If you are asking for people to get behind you, some might want to know where you are going…
Lead on.[/QUOTE]

As I understand it the problem is much simpler:
The people who do are busy trying to keep the industry going.
There is only so much that can be done by a single (or in this case three) person at any given time.

As the old saying goes: The day has 24 hours, if that is not enough we will work through the night…

[Lynnwood]

Perhaps food for thought.

There are 300 plus people and their respective families that don’t post on this board. 200 plus horses.

Those are the people and animals you are turning your back on because of an insistence and necessity to be the most right over what amounts to petty semantics.

This is the real face of the industry
https://scontent-b-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/1185165_10151536935886152_1288638342_n.jpg

[cloudyandcallie]

all the more reason for carriage drivers and owners not to want to hide horse deaths from the public. If they support their families by the use of horses, they should want a standard of care to keep the horses healthy and alive. The only way we know when a carriage horse dies working is when a civilian uses his cell phone to record the death. How many tie up or colic due to working in heat and traffic, but make it back to the barn and die there? How many get sent off to New Holland?

I don’t think the industry can be trusted to be self-regulating. When approximately 75 horses a year disappear from the carriage business in NYC, who reports how many got the elusive “forever home” and how many get sent off to New Holland? How many end up a Gentle Giants, which apparently has gotten more than Marcello from New Holland? And how many don’t get pulled from new Holland and end up at slaughter plants? in 2010, weren’t there 4 or 5 horses at New Holland that appeared to be NYC carriage horses, with their hooves nicely rasped to remove the hoof IDs, and only Bobby Freedom was pulled and sent to Equine Advocates rescue? When searching the web with google, I’ve found lots of interesting info on the lack of regulation of the carriage trade and the resistance of drivers/owners to disclose what happens to those 70 some horses each year who disappear from NYC.

And since the drivers and owners have smartphones, why don’t they take credit and debit cards which can be run on the device which works with smartphones?? It’s all about money with the people. I bet they do make a lot of unreported money off of the carriage horses. Someone needs to make sure the horses are taken care of properly and are not disposed off like trash.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=cloudyandcallie;7179970]
all the more reason for carriage drivers and owners not to want to hide horse deaths from the public. If they support their families by the use of horses, they should want a standard of care to keep the horses healthy and alive. The only way we know when a carriage horse dies working is when a civilian uses his cell phone to record the death. How many tie up or colic due to working in heat and traffic, but make it back to the barn and die there? How many get sent off to New Holland?

I don’t think the industry can be trusted to be self-regulating. When approximately 75 horses a year disappear from the carriage business in NYC, who reports how many got the elusive “forever home” and how many get sent off to New Holland? How many end up a Gentle Giants, which apparently has gotten more than Marcello from New Holland? And how many don’t get pulled from new Holland and end up at slaughter plants? in 2010, weren’t there 4 or 5 horses at New Holland that appeared to be NYC carriage horses, with their hooves nicely rasped to remove the hoof IDs, and only Bobby Freedom was pulled and sent to Equine Advocates rescue? When searching the web with google, I’ve found lots of interesting info on the lack of regulation of the carriage trade and the resistance of drivers/owners to disclose what happens to those 70 some horses each year who disappear from NYC.

And since the drivers and owners have smartphones, why don’t they take credit and debit cards which can be run on the device which works with smartphones?? It’s all about money with the people. I bet they do make a lot of unreported money off of the carriage horses. Someone needs to make sure the horses are taken care of properly and are not disposed off like trash.[/QUOTE]

You forgot to mention the NYC carriage owners eat puppies for breakfast.:eek:
What can we expect from people that do such, right?:no:

[MistyBlue]

all the more reason for carriage drivers and owners not to want to hide horse deaths from the public. If they support their families by the use of horses, they should want a standard of care to keep the horses healthy and alive. So far only the animal rights people think they HIDE anything. They have more vet presence than almost every other equine discipline/business out there. It’s up to the vets and the owners to know. I support others with what I do, it is a public service too. Is it any of your business what happens there? And if it isn’t, does that mean I am HIDING anything. (btw, learn to cover your online tracks better, )The only way we know when a carriage horse dies working is when a civilian uses his cell phone to record the death. Untrue, and this has only been the accusation of ONE other person. The amount that have died is under the national average. How many tie up or colic due to working in heat and traffic, but make it back to the barn and die there? Apparently less than the amount of show horses, working horses and ranch horse…pony ride ponies, pasture potatoes etc who do the same thing. And working? I thought they were now not working horses? Walking around with a rubber tired vehicle is hard work…so hard I can do it despite being only about 10% the size of the horse. How many get sent off to New Holland? Less than race horses. Less than AQHA culls. Less than Midwest ranch horses. Less than Amish horses. Less than older lesson horses. Less than backyard pets. So are you now saying selling through auctions is wrong somehow? Or only if they get purchased by a meat buyer? How about those statistics that were asked for repeatedly? How many CARRIAGE DRIVERS sold directly to or through auction?

I don’t think the industry can be trusted to be self-regulating. Nobody cares what you think, it’s not about you nor up to you. Nor is it about me or most of the people on here. When approximately 75 horses a year disappear from the carriage business in NYC, who reports how many got the elusive “forever home” and how many get sent off to New Holland? Have you contacted the auction and asked? Have you asked any that attend it on a regular basis? Do you understand the concept of rotation? How many end up a Gentle Giants, which apparently has gotten more than Marcello from New Holland? Auction questions asked and answered. Repeating it for effect only works on those who forget what they’ve read as soon as they’ve read it. And how many don’t get pulled from new Holland and end up at slaughter plants? Asked and answered. Are you asking the same question of dealer barns? Lesson barns? The Amish? Have you been to New Holland YOURSELF? Have any of your Info Buddies been? in 2010, weren’t there 4 or 5 horses at New Holland that appeared to be NYC carriage horses, with their hooves nicely rasped to remove the hoof IDs, and only Bobby Freedom was pulled and sent to Equine Advocates rescue? Appeared to be? The same way chestnuts appeared to be compound fractures or cancerous tumors? Or a resting leg was broken? When searching the web with google, I’ve found lots of interesting info on the lack of regulation of the carriage trade and the resistance of drivers/owners to disclose what happens to those 70 some horses each year who disappear from NYC. I’ve found some interesting stuff too. :yes:

And since the drivers and owners have smartphones, why don’t they take credit and debit cards which can be run on the device which works with smartphones?? all about money with the people. I bet they do make a lot of unreported money off of the carriage horses. Someone needs to make sure the horses are taken care of properly and are not disposed off like trash. I’d bet lawyers take bribes all the time, it’s all about the money to them!

See, it’s not nice to generalize on something you (or your friends) know absolutely nothing about.

Your last sentence there…word for word…was just elsewhere on the net. Only a small group of certain other people think horse owners need to be monitored by others to make sure they don’t do things they’re not doing.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=MistyBlue;7179995]
all the more reason for carriage drivers and owners not to want to hide horse deaths from the public. If they support their families by the use of horses, they should want a standard of care to keep the horses healthy and alive. So far only the animal rights people think they HIDE anything. They have more vet presence than almost every other equine discipline/business out there. It’s up to the vets and the owners to know. I support others with what I do, it is a public service too. Is it any of your business what happens there? And if it isn’t, does that mean I am HIDING anything. (btw, learn to cover your online tracks better, )The only way we know when a carriage horse dies working is when a civilian uses his cell phone to record the death. Untrue, and this has only been the accusation of ONE other person. The amount that have died is under the national average. How many tie up or colic due to working in heat and traffic, but make it back to the barn and die there? Apparently less than the amount of show horses, working horses and ranch horse…pony ride ponies, pasture potatoes etc who do the same thing. And working? I thought they were now not working horses? Walking around with a rubber tired vehicle is hard work…so hard I can do it despite being only about 10% the size of the horse. How many get sent off to New Holland? Less than race horses. Less than AQHA culls. Less than Midwest ranch horses. Less than Amish horses. Less than older lesson horses. Less than backyard pets. So are you now saying selling through auctions is wrong somehow? Or only if they get purchased by a meat buyer? How about those statistics that were asked for repeatedly? How many CARRIAGE DRIVERS sold directly to or through auction?

I don’t think the industry can be trusted to be self-regulating. Nobody cares what you think, it’s not about you nor up to you. Nor is it about me or most of the people on here. When approximately 75 horses a year disappear from the carriage business in NYC, who reports how many got the elusive “forever home” and how many get sent off to New Holland? Have you contacted the auction and asked? Have you asked any that attend it on a regular basis? Do you understand the concept of rotation? How many end up a Gentle Giants, which apparently has gotten more than Marcello from New Holland? Auction questions asked and answered. Repeating it for effect only works on those who forget what they’ve read as soon as they’ve read it. And how many don’t get pulled from new Holland and end up at slaughter plants? Asked and answered. Are you asking the same question of dealer barns? Lesson barns? The Amish? Have you been to New Holland YOURSELF? Have any of your Info Buddies been? in 2010, weren’t there 4 or 5 horses at New Holland that appeared to be NYC carriage horses, with their hooves nicely rasped to remove the hoof IDs, and only Bobby Freedom was pulled and sent to Equine Advocates rescue? Appeared to be? The same way chestnuts appeared to be compound fractures or cancerous tumors? Or a resting leg was broken? When searching the web with google, I’ve found lots of interesting info on the lack of regulation of the carriage trade and the resistance of drivers/owners to disclose what happens to those 70 some horses each year who disappear from NYC. I’ve found some interesting stuff too. :yes:

And since the drivers and owners have smartphones, why don’t they take credit and debit cards which can be run on the device which works with smartphones?? all about money with the people. I bet they do make a lot of unreported money off of the carriage horses. Someone needs to make sure the horses are taken care of properly and are not disposed off like trash. I’d bet lawyers take bribes all the time, it’s all about the money to them!

See, it’s not nice to generalize on something you (or your friends) know absolutely nothing about.

Your last sentence there…word for word…was just elsewhere on the net. Only a small group of certain other people think horse owners need to be monitored by others to make sure they don’t do things they’re not doing. [/QUOTE]

Bolded mine for emphasis on that last phrase.:lol:

How much more absurd can some get?:rolleyes:

[trubandloki]

[QUOTE=Bluey;7180004]

How much more absurd can some get?:rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

Do not dare the crazy people. I am sure their level of absurd can raise quite a bit.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=trubandloki;7180007]
Do not dare the crazy people. I am sure their level of absurd can raise quite a bit.[/QUOTE]

True dat.:eek:

[MandyVA]

These anti efforts are springing up all over. Now it’s Milwaukee. Seriously? Reading this drivel…tell me again why we’re all taking this lying down? But by all means let’s bitch about each other’s personalities, that’s important.

https://www.facebook.com/events/515073848539880/

[michaleenflynn]

[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;7179728]
This would make a very good press release -with some photos of happy customers in carriages, photos in the stable, etc.

I think it is important to get the word out to the un-informed and the dis-informed.

Think of those who only see the carriage horses as relics of a bygone era: How can you inform them of the importance of continuing this business in NY?

And how much revenue does the city recieve from the industry? Are you advertised/spotlighted in tourist mags, etc. of the ‘big Apple’?
present it from a perception of ‘interacting with animals’, a respite from the insane pace of modern urban life, Central park is also valuable real estate, but without the PARK, NY would be poor beyond measuring.
That is how to place your business- on the intangibles of value to humanity.[/QUOTE]

Awesome post, excellent input, thank you so very much Bald!!

[michaleenflynn]

[QUOTE=MHM;7179796]

That’s because most of the posters on this BB are used to following the guidelines here, which state that everyone must be polite and respectful, not rude and insulting, even when they disagree. [/QUOTE]

Does lying, passing on false information as fact, making unfounded allegations and other various slanderous/libelous activity qualify as “polite, respectful” or “rude, insulting”?

[Amwrider]

Cloudyandcallie, instead of listening to the lies Elizabeth Forel is feeding you, why don’t you do what I did and call New Holland directly. Their phone number is easily found. Ask them how many NYC carriage horses they get in each sale. You can easily find their phone number and contrary to popular belief the Amish DO use telephones, I have spoken to many of them (but if you leave a phone message, expect a return call at 5 am, LOL)

Regarding the horse Manhattan at Gentle Giants, his owner gave him to an Amish man for his children to ride around. It is the Amish man that put him through New Holland a few months later.

As a matter of fact, the three main horses that the anti carriage people tout around and exploit to solicit donations (yes, I said the EXPLOIT the carriage horses for money) all ended up at New Holland or AC4H through third parties, not from the carriage trade.

Forel’s newsletter regarding the Manhattan incident even claims that the horse was last seen on the streets 3 or 4 months before going to New Holland so that supports the carriage industries claim that the horse was given to a third party.

So, if you take me up on my invitation to contact New Holland directly, you will probably get the same answer I did, that they almost NEVER see NYC carriage horses go through.

And I have stated before, even IF a hoof was sanded or acrylic or putty was used to fill in the hoof brand, the brand is deep, sanding to remove it would be completely disfiguring the hoof (probably to the point of lameness or tenderness) and any acrylic or hoof putty is noticeable and really would not “stick” to the top of a hoof wall, it sticks to the bottom of the hoof wall where the surface is rougher and the nail clinches help it to grab.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=michaleenflynn;7180068]
Does lying, passing on false information as fact, making unfounded allegations and other various slanderous/libelous activity qualify as “polite, respectful” or “rude, insulting”?[/QUOTE]

In our old dog training forum, we finally had to ban some animal rights extremist posters, as they would continuously bring their propaganda, that is all myths and out of context stories, which is purely, as you say, unfounded allegations, time and again.

That is past being polite discourse, but trolling, when some keep bringing the same time and again, that has been explained already many times.

That is not the same as not letting someone disagree or bringing true information related to what is being discussed.

There is a fine line there, that animal rights extremist tend to cross over and run with as far as they are permitted, time and again.:rolleyes:

We are fighting the same mentality those animal rights extremist show here in most other we do with our animals, if you care to look around.
They are not only coming here.:no:

[LauraKY]

[QUOTE=Fenfox1;7179713]
Originally Posted by LauraKY
Yes it does, and was in reference to Nazi occupied territories. Again, highly inappropriate to equate banning carriage horses or even the attempted confiscation of carriage horses to the Holocaust.

You are clearly not a student of history pertaining to WWI and WWII. Alot more ethinic groups, disabled, retarded, gypies were done away with long before the assualt on Jews.[/QUOTE]

The Holocaust does not refer only to the deaths of the Jews. Neimolloer first penned his famous lines after his release from prison after the war and after a visit to Dachau. And yes, not only Jews died in the Holocaust. They started with the mentally ill and disabled, I believe. I’d suggest doing a little more research on the motivations behind the quote.

The term Holocaust is inclusive of all who died due to discrimination: Jews, gypsies, the mentally ill, disabled, and political prisoners.

But that is completely off topic. There must be an off topic day coming up…maybe Thanksgiving. This would be a very interesting topic.

ETA: And I still strongly believe that equating a genocide, any genocide, to the plight of the carriage horses is highly inappropriate and tends to diminish the horror of all genocides. There is nothing comparable other than another genocide.

Another ETA: C&C you’ve jumped the shark. Let it go.

[MHM]

[QUOTE=michaleenflynn;7180068]
Does lying, passing on false information as fact, making unfounded allegations and other various slanderous/libelous activity qualify as “polite, respectful” or “rude, insulting”?[/QUOTe]

Please quote any post of mine where I have done any of those things. Please do.

I would certainly have no trouble finding multiple posts of yours to quote that are quite rude and insulting. To many.

I don’t make allegations or accusations. I simply ask questions that any reasonable person would ask. If I don’t get a straight answer, I repeat the question. Here, watch, I’ll do it again:

Is it true Juliet had another horse’s identification tags on when she died?

I’ve asked the same question many times over several days. I’m still waiting for a simple yes or no answer.

[michaleenflynn]

I want to publicly thank the lurkers and other posters who send me awesome PMs of support.

I know my heart is true; I know the truth stands alone, with no help from anyone, nor can anyone on either side tear it down deliberately or inadvertently.

Thank you to those who take the time to give me the reality check and deep understanding that keeps me going, buoys my spirits, and helps me to shake off those who would drag me down.

Here’s one such PM:

“It just makes me so sad. They pile on like children with sticks poking at a tethered dog, all the while suggesting, with outright lies and innuendo, that the abuse is somehow your fault. Then when you have the temerity to curl your lip, they jump back shrieking, pretending they are the ones who have been wronged. “SEE??? I told you she was vicious!!!” all the while keeping their disapproving and safe distance. And the offers of help, but only if you behave according to their standards, are so absurdly transparent, as is their targeting you - they lose interest when you are not responding. It’s a wicked, wicked game to them, and I just hate it. Sorry about the dog analogy.”

[michaleenflynn]

@MHM;7180115

Please quote any post of mine where I have done any of those things. Please do.

I never said or intimated that you did - as my grandmother used to say, “the guilty flee when none pursue.”

That question was obviously (or so I thought) a rebuke to you for handslapping me for defending myself FROM those things, and doing it in what you deem a less-than-perfect way. IOW - just pointing out that you seem to be holding to me to a different standard when I get rude and insulting in RESPONSE to those who are being the WORST kind of rude of insulting, ie liars and slanderers, while taking issue with them not at all.

It’s obvious, and this is boring. I will not explain it to you again.

As for Juliet, I have absolutely zero first hand knowledge of what tag was on her halter; I was too busy trying to coordinate the trailer and the manpower to come and get her to stop and look.

I do know that the owner received NO summonses for wrongdoing concerning the incident.

I also know that changing a tag is useless, as anyone who is tasked with checking numbers must match the tag to the hoof number.

I also know that the DoH has made many, many mistakes in our long history with them.

Something else I know - that regardless of what happened with Juliet, it is not an indication of anything that goes on at large in our industry, and that anyone who says otherwise is either seizing on it to have a reason not to support, or is part of the larger effort which works against us.

We do not, as a whole, change tags, change hoof numbers, or double-shift horses; our horses have an extraordinarily low incidence of colic compared with other horse populations, due mainly (according to Dr. Lowe of Cornell University) to the fact that our horses work 9 hours a day, everyday, with their work and feed routines barely varying. Whatever happened with Juliet - even if you choose to believe the worst without any supporting evidence - it is not indicative of the industry at large. Believe it, or don’t.

Now, c&p a snippet of this post and give me a snarky answer, have at it. Or don’t.

[Shine]

[QUOTE=MistyBlue;7179995]
all the more reason for carriage drivers and owners not to want to hide horse deaths from the public. If they support their families by the use of horses, they should want a standard of care to keep the horses healthy and alive. So far only the animal rights people think they HIDE anything. They have more vet presence than almost every other equine discipline/business out there. It’s up to the vets and the owners to know. I support others with what I do, it is a public service too. Is it any of your business what happens there? And if it isn’t, does that mean I am HIDING anything. (btw, learn to cover your online tracks better, )The only way we know when a carriage horse dies working is when a civilian uses his cell phone to record the death. Untrue, and this has only been the accusation of ONE other person. The amount that have died is under the national average. How many tie up or colic due to working in heat and traffic, but make it back to the barn and die there? Apparently less than the amount of show horses, working horses and ranch horse…pony ride ponies, pasture potatoes etc who do the same thing. And working? I thought they were now not working horses? Walking around with a rubber tired vehicle is hard work…so hard I can do it despite being only about 10% the size of the horse. How many get sent off to New Holland? Less than race horses. Less than AQHA culls. Less than Midwest ranch horses. Less than Amish horses. Less than older lesson horses. Less than backyard pets. So are you now saying selling through auctions is wrong somehow? Or only if they get purchased by a meat buyer? How about those statistics that were asked for repeatedly? How many CARRIAGE DRIVERS sold directly to or through auction?

I don’t think the industry can be trusted to be self-regulating. Nobody cares what you think, it’s not about you nor up to you. Nor is it about me or most of the people on here. When approximately 75 horses a year disappear from the carriage business in NYC, who reports how many got the elusive “forever home” and how many get sent off to New Holland? Have you contacted the auction and asked? Have you asked any that attend it on a regular basis? Do you understand the concept of rotation? How many end up a Gentle Giants, which apparently has gotten more than Marcello from New Holland? Auction questions asked and answered. Repeating it for effect only works on those who forget what they’ve read as soon as they’ve read it. And how many don’t get pulled from new Holland and end up at slaughter plants? Asked and answered. Are you asking the same question of dealer barns? Lesson barns? The Amish? Have you been to New Holland YOURSELF? Have any of your Info Buddies been? in 2010, weren’t there 4 or 5 horses at New Holland that appeared to be NYC carriage horses, with their hooves nicely rasped to remove the hoof IDs, and only Bobby Freedom was pulled and sent to Equine Advocates rescue? Appeared to be? The same way chestnuts appeared to be compound fractures or cancerous tumors? Or a resting leg was broken? When searching the web with google, I’ve found lots of interesting info on the lack of regulation of the carriage trade and the resistance of drivers/owners to disclose what happens to those 70 some horses each year who disappear from NYC. I’ve found some interesting stuff too. :yes:

And since the drivers and owners have smartphones, why don’t they take credit and debit cards which can be run on the device which works with smartphones?? all about money with the people. I bet they do make a lot of unreported money off of the carriage horses. Someone needs to make sure the horses are taken care of properly and are not disposed off like trash. I’d bet lawyers take bribes all the time, it’s all about the money to them!

See, it’s not nice to generalize on something you (or your friends) know absolutely nothing about.

Your last sentence there…word for word…was just elsewhere on the net. Only a small group of certain other people think horse owners need to be monitored by others to make sure they don’t do things they’re not doing. [/QUOTE]

Here you go being all sensible and stuff.:yes: It just confuses people.