ClipClopNYC '14 is officially on hold

[QUOTE=stolen virtue;7177080]
And based on the hostility expressed on this forum of anyone who would question the Carriage Horse Industry, that is one steep hill to climb. Sometimes I think some of the posters claiming to be pro-carriage, might be working for the other side based on the rudeness and hostility in their posts…[/QUOTE]

More likely that there may be some posters here that are paid by animal rights extremist groups.
They participate here mostly to foment discord at any cost, switching sides as necessary, just be contrary as fits best to push their agendas and pick at those that are clearly against them.:no:

Had that happen when I was moderating in another animal forum, it is a known tactic of them.:frowning:

[QUOTE=cloudyandcallie;7177223]
When Juliet, a carriage horse in NYC collapsed and died, she was wearing Rusty’s tags. iAnd it was reported that Rusty had died. Then of course the truth came out. Mare died wearing gelding’s tags and it was not discovered until AFTER she was dead. So much for inspections.

Kind of like that horse this summer in Utah. When Jerry collapsed and was hauled off to die, the carriage people presented another grey horse as Jerry. I think they switched a mare for the dead gelding. When I saw the pix of the 2nd horse, it was obvious comparing the pix to the video of the dying Jerry being lifted at the barn and taken into the barn to die, that the mare was not Jerry. Thank God someone followed the dying horse to the barn and videotaped him being hauled around.

Some farriers, not mine, rasp the outer layer of the hoof so that it looks good. I presume that rasping would remove any “branding” of the hoof. And I know that acrylics make wonderful hooves, my farrier used acrylics to make wonderful hooves on my shelly hoofed horse years ago so that he could keep his shoes on. All one has to do is put on acrylics over a “brand” if that is what is used for identification of a carriage horse, and then apply a new brand #. Except had would presume that horses are inspected on the street daily. Which of course they are not.

and they are stalled up on 2nd floors of buildings. So I presume fire is a huge hazard for horses in shavings with hay on upper floors in portable stalls lined up on each side the whole length of a building. Sprinklers are essential. Wasn’t Shamrock Stables on City property? And did’t the city require sprinkler system in its own building?[/QUOTE]

You know, that someone, somewhere breaks laws doesn’t mean a whole industry does.

There was some animal rights extremist horrible abuse video in a dairy presented by animal rights groups to national TV at the time an important state vote was to happen, that would have shut the dairy industry in that state.

That made it look like that is what happens in all dairies, lets shut them down!

You are doing that to NYC carriage horses by bringing that up.
You may as well be saying “you see, some are crooks”, lets ban them!:eek:

Well, some may be cheating, or there may have been a mistake and good explanation there, you know.:no:

Some times, debates are not about being right, but about doing what is right.:yes:

Here, on many levels, my opinion is that what is right as a horse person is to see that the NYC carriage horses not be railroaded.

This is not the time to pick at them and try to find fault, any one fault, anything they did or may have not done right before.
NO ONE can stand there and say they are without fault and demand that of others.

IN GENERAL, the NYC carriage horses ARE some of the most visible and inspected and have the most rules and regulations and silly hoops to jump thru than most any other out there we do with horses you can find.

While not perfect, nothing is, they are definitely being assaulted falsely when they are branded abusers, as they are right now in the eyes of the gullible public.

That should be objectionable to any honest person out there, especially those with horses, that knowingly or not are already in the sights of those same after the carriage horses, targeted also eventually for the same treatment.:eek:

Sounds like Cloudy got a PM from Lizzie and posted it here. Truth, C&C?

[QUOTE=lolalola;7177263]
Sounds like Cloudy got a PM from Lizzie and posted it here. Truth, C&C?[/QUOTE]

Well considering Elizabeth has logged on to this forum and yet posted nothing its pretty obvious that she could tell that C&C was a “special helper” and has been PM’ing and spoon feeding her typical Lizzie BS. That’s not shocking …just that C&C being intelligent fell for it so hard.

PS While your playing pen pal C&C can you ask Miss Elizabeth a question for me ?

Ask her why if her position is so based on truths; why she is hiding? Hiding behind you to play telephone …hiding behind a Facebook page that bans and deletes any posts that counter her position in any way ?

[QUOTE=Bluey;7177235]
Some times, debates are not about being right, but about doing what is right.

Here, on many levels, my opinion is that what is right as a horse person is to see that the NYC carriage horses not be railroaded.

While not perfect, nothing is, they are definitely being assaulted falsely when they are branded abusers, as they are right now in the eyes of the gullible public.

That should be objectionable to any honest person out there, especially those with horses, that knowingly or not are already in the sights of those same after the carriage horses, targeted also eventually for the same treatment.:eek:[/QUOTE]

These excerpts summarize my feelings on the issue perfectly.

Further, I am baffled by how a person who admittedly has never visited the stables where the NYC carriage horses live, and not personally witnessed their daily care and the bond they have with their owners, would want to grasp at any possible argument (fake hooves, seriously?) that the horses are being mistreated.

[QUOTE=Lynnwood;7177074]
When Mane and Tale jumped the shark and supported NYCLASS under erroneous circumstances this board and others and the horse community in general made a tremendous effort and it resulted in an eye opening change of heart for them.

Where is that support now … :no:

Least you not forget that NYCLASS is partnered openly and actively with PETA. A win for them is an open door just as said above that they know what is best for horses more so then horse owners and professionals.[/QUOTE]

You can’t see the difference? It was their customers who were responding, who could affect their bottom line, with threats of a boycott.

I don’t see a comparable, unless you can find masses of people who will boycott NY City tourism.

[QUOTE=Tha Ridge;7177152]
And my point is that support means nothing. Post on NYC forums and teach actual constituents about your cause, because right now you’re just preaching to the choir.

And no, I have not attended a ClipClop.

Have to agree with stolen virtue that the hostility (toward someone who’s pro-carriage horse, nonetheless) is weird and off-putting. Sheesh.[/QUOTE]

That’s what turned me off. I’m neither for or against. But the attitude and hostility are a total turnoff.

[QUOTE=Lynnwood;7177276]
Well considering Elizabeth has logged on to this forum and yet posted nothing its pretty obvious that she could tell that C&C was a “special helper” and has been PM’ing and spoon feeding her typical Lizzie BS. That’s not shocking …just that C&C being intelligent fell for it so hard.[/QUOTE]

Hahahahahahahaha! You people need to lose the tin foil hats. Not everything is a conspiracy. I don’t know how you think this is helping you, all you do is raise the stakes on the hostility.

And oh, by the way, all you’re doing is letting Forel know how well you can sabotage your own outreach. But carry on, it’s been working so well for you so far.

[QUOTE=TarheelJD;7177320]
These excerpts summarize my feelings on the issue perfectly.

Further, I am baffled by how a person who admittedly has never visited the stables where the NYC carriage horses live, and not personally witnessed their daily care and the bond they have with their owners, would want to grasp at any possible argument (fake hooves, seriously?) that the horses are being mistreated.[/QUOTE]

Right, I must be missing something.
Those attacks here, now, seem kind of absurd, just doesn’t make much sense.:confused:

[QUOTE=LauraKY;7177328]
That’s what turned me off. I’m neither for or against. But the attitude and hostility are a total turnoff.[/QUOTE]
I concur.

[QUOTE=Alagirl;7177037]
I guess you can then go ahead and plan it for Clip Clop…Eva said she and the other two people are currently BUSY trying to save the industry without Clip Clop would be pointless.
It ain’t throwing the towel in, it’s doing he most with what you got, time in this case.

Come January, and the horses are still there, there is still time to plan the event.[/QUOTE]

And there would be ample time to put the event on hold the month before or cancel then as well.
Planning ClipClop and trying to save the industry are not mutually exclusive activities, but really should function hand in hand…

Does each carriage carry with them a petition for the guests/customers to sign?
Why not?
Do they hand out brochures highlighting the issue and asking customers, and passersby to go somewhere online to learn more and to sign a supportive petition? Why not?
Do they hand out info on ClipClop?

[QUOTE=LauraKY;7177328]
That’s what turned me off. I’m neither for or against. But the attitude and hostility are a total turnoff.[/QUOTE]

I guess it depends on what side you are if someone defending themselves and responding to absurd accusations is seen as “having and attitude and being hostile”.:no:

[QUOTE=LauraKY;7177322]
You can’t see the difference? It was their customers who were responding, who could affect their bottom line, with threats of a boycott.

I don’t see a comparable, unless you can find masses of people who will boycott NY City tourism.[/QUOTE]

Laura the question was rhetorical asking where are all the people who pushed and supported the carriage groups and pressed Mane and Tail now ?

Not asking why Mane and Tail responded. In truth their reaction including having their president/CEO not only tour the barns /inspect the horses but go on to sponsor Clip Clop the following year should be all the proof the handful of neigh sayers here need.

http://manentailequine.com/expert-blog-news/celebrating-working-horses/

[QUOTE=cloudyandcallie;7177223]
When Juliet, a carriage horse in NYC collapsed and died, she was wearing Rusty’s tags. iAnd it was reported that Rusty had died. Then of course the truth came out. Mare died wearing gelding’s tags and it was not discovered until AFTER she was dead. So much for inspections.

Kind of like that horse this summer in Utah. When Jerry collapsed and was hauled off to die, the carriage people presented another grey horse as Jerry. [/QUOTE]

Is it true these two things happened?

If so, it is pretty damning to any claims of integrity regarding the identification of horses. There is no way for anyone outside the carriage trade to know if these were anomalies or common practices.

No one had to send me a PM to point that out.

[QUOTE=LauraKY;7177330]
Hahahahahahahaha! You people need to lose the tin foil hats. Not everything is a conspiracy. I don’t know how you think this is helping you, all you do is raise the stakes on the hostility.

And oh, by the way, all you’re doing is letting Forel know how well you can sabotage your own outreach. But carry on, it’s been working so well for you so far.[/QUOTE]

Conspiracy ? C&C is who came at them with accusations about horses having their hoof brands filed and filled in with acrylic so they can be double shifted (seems like a real pain in the butt to brand and then file , epoxy and rebrand a hoof everyday ) But Lizzie says its true so it must be… :lol:.

By the way Laura and I KNOW you’re trying to help. What C&C wrote I’ve read from Elizabeth over and over again almost word for word. It’t not a conspiracy. You and I both know she’s PM’d you in the past and PM’d others … don’t act so shocked.

[QUOTE=MHM;7177357]
Is it true these two things happened?

If so, it is pretty damning to any claims of integrity regarding the identification of horses. There is no way for anyone outside the carriage trade to know if these were anomalies or common practices.

No one had to send me a PM to point that out.[/QUOTE]

MHM Jerry the carriage horse in Utah is really pretty unrelated to the horses in NYC don’t you think ?

DESPITE the videos of trainers tying their horses’ heads to their chests and whipping them in tiny circles on the lunge, hitting them hard enough to leave welts, over and over again…

DESPITE the “bans” on rollkur and the obvious flaunting of the rules by the Big Names…

DESPITE the dead horses and riders that occur every year in eventing…

DESPITE the broken legs, broken spines, bleeding ulcers, spur marks, whip marks, abusive hands and razor-sharp bits…

None of these disciplines have been banned. None of them.

This is NYC politicking, plain and simple, and those horsepeople who are so proudly against carriage driving as a discipline - and city livery as a whole - are heinous piles of weeping excrement who cannot see their own hypocrisy beyond their gleaming sense of self-righteousness.

Y’know, in case anyone cared what I think. (Which they don’t.)

[QUOTE=Lynnwood;7177373]
Conspiracy ? C&C is who came at them with accusations about horses having their hoof brands filed and filled in with acrylic so they can be double shifted (seems like a real pain in the butt to brand and then file epoxy a hoof everyday ) But Lizzie says its true so it must be… :lol:.

By the way Laura and I KNOW you’re trying to help. What C&C wrote I’ve read from Elizabeth over and over again almost word for word. It’t not a conspiracy. You and I both know she’s PM’d you in the past and PM’d others … don’t act so shocked.[/QUOTE]

Some may be paranoid, but that doesn’t mean “they” are not after them.
As we can see here.:no:

[QUOTE=Lynnwood;7177375]
MHM Jerry the carriage horse in Utah is really pretty unrelated to the horses in NYC don’t you think ?[/QUOTE]
No. Not if his attempted identification switch indicates that it is common practice in that industry to swap out carriage horses to cover up problems.

As I said, there is no way for an outsider to know if these are rare occurrences or things that happen all the time.

I’ll repeat my previous question. Is it true those two horses that died, Juliet in New York and Jerry in Utah, were incorrectly identified at first?