ClipClopNYC '14 is officially on hold

[LauraKY]

[QUOTE=Lynnwood;7177373]
Conspiracy ? C&C is who came at them with accusations about horses having their hoof brands filed and filled in with acrylic so they can be double shifted (seems like a real pain in the butt to brand and then file , epoxy and rebrand a hoof everyday ) But Lizzie says its true so it must be… :lol:.

By the way Laura and I KNOW you’re trying to help. What C&C wrote I’ve read from Elizabeth over and over again almost word for word. It’t not a conspiracy. You and I both know she’s PM’d you in the past and PM’d others … don’t act so shocked.[/QUOTE]

Oh, yes she did. I still have it somewhere. It was a nasty, vindictive, threatening PM as well. She’s a nasty piece of work. Threats don’t work very well for me though. I must have touched a nerve to generate it…she even tracked down who I am IRL. Not an easy thing to do…

She’s dangerous, but that doesn’t excuse the hostility from the pro carriage side. I just don’t understand how you think the petty nastiness and snarky replies to anything to help your cause. It’s just a total turnoff. You want people to support you…not decide it’s just not worth the trouble and time.

Let me see if I can find the PM. It was quite interesting.

[Lynnwood]

[QUOTE=MHM;7177399]
No. Not if his attempted identification switch indicates that it is common practice in that industry to swap out carriage horses to cover up problems.

As I said, there is no way for an outsider to know if these are rare occurrences or things that happen all the time.[/QUOTE]

But the industry is not mutually exclusive. Or should I assume that every H/J trainer drugs their horses to the gills because recently there have been a few high profile bad apples ?

I get MHM being annoyed that some posts come across as defensive. I don’t by any imagination pretend to understand the stress they are under because frankly I think it would break me if people believed I abused my horses without fact or conviction simply because someone else said so. So when I read something that makes me wince or is grating I remember how difficult it must be as a fellow human being and let it go.

[Angela_Freda]

[QUOTE=Lynnwood;7177373]
Conspiracy ? C&C is who came at them with accusations about horses having their hoof brands filed and filled in with acrylic so they can be double shifted (seems like a real pain in the butt to brand and then file , epoxy and rebrand a hoof everyday ) But Lizzie says its true so it must be… :lol:.

By the way Laura and I KNOW you’re trying to help. What C&C wrote I’ve read from Elizabeth over and over again almost word for word. It’t not a conspiracy. You and I both know she’s PM’d you in the past and PM’d others … don’t act so shocked.[/QUOTE]
I don’t know who ‘Liz’ is and I don’t know C&C well either…

But is it not possible that C&C read these posts you say Liz wrote on here about these issues, then C&C looked into them and found them to be true?
Or that C&C never read a word Liz wrote, and happens to have a similar view based on information s/he found on his/her own?

That’s how I function… I read both sides, do some research to parse out what appears to be most truthful [no one side is ever 100%, the truth is always somewhere in the middle], and what I’ve found becomes MY opinion on the topic until I learn something new to change it…

Sometimes [in fact most often I would guess] it’s not a conspiracy… sometimes it’s just that several intelligent adults have come to the same conclusion.

[LauraKY]

Here you go:

Dear Ms. ______:

Consider this a warning. I know who you are and I have your address in Kentucky. The next thing is to get my lawyer to write a cease and desist letter and take you to court.

But before that happens, I need to ask – are you really that bored or unhappy with your life that you have to attack someone you never met and expose what little you know about me – i.e. my job and suggesting that I do my activism work on company time. That is a very serious charge. And why does it matter where I work or how much money I make. Pathetic. If you care so much about that you should care about how the NYC cash only carriage trade is managing its books.

You must know that this is projection – psychology 101. Since Eva would probably cheat her mother, she just assumes that I must be doing this work on company time because she would be – as if it were the most important thing in the world to me. And it seems that you are equally dishonest considering this post "How interesting. So Elizabeth Forel is a Project Manager with the NYC Housing Authority? I wonder if she’s protesting on her own time or the city’s.
I see a possible expose. "

Eva is the one who brought this information to COTH. I do not make a practice of visiting this silly mindless site. But through Google Alerts, I saw that Eva had introduced the topic of “what will happen to the carriage horses” – right off my FB page. Still - the back and forth is not worth my time – until it gets personal.

And Laura – you have made it personal!

As a matter of fact, my recent blog has come through on Google Alerts today.

You have to realize that all of you come across as a bunch of silly, lonely, pathetic, Junior high school like girls with nothing better to do with your time than to bully others and come after something and someone you know little about, other than what is told to you by your leader Eva Hughes. You all think you are being so cool by hiding behind a screen name and saying nasty things about others – tittering away. This is why I have no time for you and why I will put a stop to this if I have to. These people are not your friends. They would stab you in the back the first chance they get and you would probably do the same to them.

From what I have heard and seen, it seems that you are all addicted to this forum – sort of like a TV soap opera - like a snakes pit; hornet’s nest - or a den of iniquity.

Maybe you want to consider getting a real cause that will take you away from the computer – help with a children’s charity , the elderly, volunteer in an animal shelter; help the homeless. But this chatter back and forth on an impersonal forum where you think you all have something in common and that you are friends – and then you cannot wait to get back to the computer to see what someone said - is indicative of a serious personality problem.

You are a nasty, mean spirited person, Laura. I can see that in the way you write and what you say. You want credit for providing information but Eva does not buy it. You both deserve each other.

I ask you not to republish this or any parts of it on COTH or anyplace else. If you do, it is just more evidence against you.

She’s a nasty piece of work.

[MHM]

[QUOTE=LauraKY;7177422]

She’s a nasty piece of work.[/QUOTE]
Wow, I’ll say. Way to make friends and influence people. Not.

[Lynnwood]

I do not make a practice of visiting this silly mindless site.

Yet a quick little profile check …proves otherwise showing she was logged in yesterday

[wildlifer]

I will confess that I have mixed feelings about working horses in cities, but they can certainly be well-cared for and live healthy lives while doing their jobs, be they carriage horses, police horses, etc.

I grew up near Cincinnati, which harbours both and the carriage horses are a hallmark of the winter holidays as they give tours of the central business district. But I have never seen any real objections or animosity – it is such a tiny niche market in any city. Given that and having read all of these contentious threads (which I do agree, often contain posts which don’t do the industry any favours, but I’ve also been known to lose my temper over subjects near and dear to my heart) over the years, it seems to me that it’s not about the horses at all.

I obviously do not have the insight of the operators or citizens, but it doesn’t look like it matters one iota whether the horses are well-cared for or not, even though from what I have seen, they are just fine. They could be rabid giraffes or charming baby fur seals, but the whole thing looks to be a political morass whose aim may be real estate or something else, but is certainly not animal welfare.

So I would think that arguments and evidence that the horses are indeed fine wouldn’t matter, since they are not the endgame of this process. Whatever that core political issue is, I would think that that is where the energy needs to be spent. Probably stating the obvious, but just a thought.

I work in a highly politicized field and am funded at the whim (or not) of legislatures and things are very very ugly right now, so I do know how that feels. It is extremely discouraging and I find it so sad that so much energy is directed against this tiny industry in NYC whose only real crime seems to be being in the wrong place at the wrong time when the crosshairs get switched on.

[Lynnwood]

[QUOTE=MHM;7177433]
Wow, I’ll say. Way to make friends and influence people. Not.[/QUOTE]

And you wonder why some of the people in the industry respond defensively dealing with the likes of her everyday.

[Vermilion]

Wow, they track down who you are and where you live? And somehow you’re the one with the issues? To me, that could imply a very real and physical threat to one’s well-being. At least it was put into writing though…very difficult to refute that in court, especially when it starts with “consider this a warning.”

Also, I’d like to point out that when someone’s livelihood is threatened, it tends to raise tempers. I can’t say that I blame them there. What I find the most astonishing is that the rest of the horse community will just, for the most part, ignore the carriage issue. Honestly, I wasn’t fully aware of the seriousness until recently. There should be a concentration of effort to get the problem out there–to every horse owner–because in the long run they may be next. A chain reaction only needs one event to start.

I would also like to mention that if a horse like Hickstead can collapse and die on the job, then so can any other horse. It happens. I’d need to see an autopsy report before making any assumptions as to what caused the collapse/death. And how does one not notice the difference between a gelding and a mare?? Why couldn’t they just move to a more permanent form of ID, like tattoo or branding? There hasn’t been a lot of thoroughbred swapping, to my knowledge.

[MHM]

[QUOTE=Lynnwood;7177415]
But the industry is not mutually exclusive. Or should I assume that every H/J trainer drugs their horses to the gills because recently there have been a few high profile bad apples ? [/QUOTE]

You can assume anything you like, although you’ve probably heard the old saw about what happens when you assume.

I try not to assume, but to gather facts to form an opinion.

[QUOTE=MHM;7177399]
I’ll repeat my previous question. Is it true those two horses that died, Juliet in New York and Jerry in Utah, were incorrectly identified at first?[/QUOTE]

I’m still waiting for a simple yes or no answer to this question.

[michaleenflynn]

[QUOTE=cloudyandcallie;7177223]
When Juliet, a carriage horse in NYC collapsed and died, she was wearing Rusty’s tags. iAnd it was reported that Rusty had died. Then of course the truth came out. Mare died wearing gelding’s tags and it was not discovered until AFTER she was dead. So much for inspections.

Kind of like that horse this summer in Utah. When Jerry collapsed and was hauled off to die, the carriage people presented another grey horse as Jerry. I think they switched a mare for the dead gelding. When I saw the pix of the 2nd horse, it was obvious comparing the pix to the video of the dying Jerry being lifted at the barn and taken into the barn to die, that the mare was not Jerry. Thank God someone followed the dying horse to the barn and videotaped him being hauled around.

Some farriers, not mine, rasp the outer layer of the hoof so that it looks good. I presume that rasping would remove any “branding” of the hoof. And I know that acrylics make wonderful hooves, my farrier used acrylics to make wonderful hooves on my shelly hoofed horse years ago so that he could keep his shoes on. All one has to do is put on acrylics over a “brand” if that is what is used for identification of a carriage horse, and then apply a new brand #. Except had would presume that horses are inspected on the street daily. Which of course they are not.

and they are stalled up on 2nd floors of buildings. So I presume fire is a huge hazard for horses in shavings with hay on upper floors in portable stalls lined up on each side the whole length of a building. Sprinklers are essential. Wasn’t Shamrock Stables on City property? And did’t the city require sprinkler system in its own building?[/QUOTE]

Holy jumpin’ Jehosaphat.

Are you writing mystery novels with help from Elizabeth Forel? Sure sounds like it.

Or are you just a conspiracy nut, and extrapolate that worldview out to everything you encounter at large?

You just keep throwing the poop, hoping something will stick - even after I offered you a personal tour, at your convenience, at the busy holiday season. Offer withdrawn - no WAY do you deserve my generosity.

There is no hope for those like you who cannot bottle the acid. Did you say you were a prosecutor? Did you use those types of tactics - positing wild, unsubstantiated allegations and second-hand propaganda as fact, or insinuating as much? Blech.

How many horses and stalls and farriers do you think we have for this merry-go-round of number changing you see in your twisted dreams? It is so ludicrous as to be laughable. Yeah, people are re-branding their horses everyday @@ I take back what I said earlier - it wouldn’t even make good fiction.

As for Jerry in Utah, I’ll have you know that I personally called that owner and ripped her up and down for lying and mishandling the entire situation – I told her over and over again to just ADMIT that Jerry was dead, which she would not even admit to me, but I knew anyway. I told her that here in NYC, EVERYTHING we do is above board, that that is the ONLY way to operate; I tried to give her the benefit of my experience, she would have none of it. Utah has NOTHING to do with NYC.

As for your last paragraph - our upper floor stalls are NOT “portable” (where the hell did that come from?), nor are they always “lined up on each side of the building.” Again, you know NOTHING. And sprinklers are NOT essential - they were put in at OUR expense, pro-actively, in the absence of ANY law requiring us to do so. No, Shamrock Stables did not have a sprinkler system, WRONG AGAIN.

Lastly, I just gotta say that I get a particular tightening in my gut when I hear people like you - toxic, nasty, cynical, accusatory, unrelenting, and not open to the truth - mention the name of one of our horses. You didn’t know Juliet. She was a fantastic mare that I had the privilege to drive. I fed her, and groomed her, and spent the day with her, and put her to bed at night. She died a horrible, gruesome death, exacerbated by the lunatic, know-nothing morons who hurled invective and threatened death on her driver for trying to get her up off the street. They impeded his efforts, and took his attention away from her, and her death was worse for it.

You’re no better than they are, and you’re not fit to type her name.

[Angela_Freda]

[QUOTE=michaleenflynn;7177479]
Holy jumpin’ Jehosaphat.

Are you writing mystery novels with help from Elizabeth Forel? Sure sounds like it.

Or are you just a conspiracy nut, and extrapolate that worldview out to everything you encounter at large?

You just keep throwing the poop, hoping something will stick - even after I offered you a personal tour, at your convenience, at the busy holiday season. Offer withdrawn - no WAY do you deserve my generosity.

There is no hope for those like you who cannot bottle the acid. Did you say you were a prosecutor? Did you use those types of tactics - positing wild, unsubstantiated allegations and second-hand propaganda as fact, or insinuating as much? Blech.

How many horses and stalls and farriers do you think we have for this merry-go-round of number changing you see in your twisted dreams? It is so ludicrous as to be laughable. Yeah, people are re-branding their horses everyday @@ I take back what I said earlier - it wouldn’t even make good fiction.

As for Jerry in Utah, I’ll have you know that I personally called that owner and ripped her up and down for lying and mishandling the entire situation – I told her over and over again to just ADMIT that Jerry was dead, which she would not even admit to me, but I knew anyway. I told her that here in NYC, EVERYTHING we do is above board, that that is the ONLY way to operate; I tried to give her the benefit of my experience, she would have none of it. Utah has NOTHING to do with NYC.

As for your last paragraph - our upper floor stalls are NOT “portable” (where the hell did that come from?), nor are they always “lined up on each side of the building.” Again, you know NOTHING. And sprinklers are NOT essential - they were put in at OUR expense, pro-actively, in the absence of ANY law requiring us to do so. No, Shamrock Stables did not have a sprinkler system, WRONG AGAIN.

Lastly, I just gotta say that I get a particular tightening in my gut when I hear people like you - toxic, nasty, cynical, accusatory, unrelenting, and not open to the truth - mention the name of one of our horses. You didn’t know Juliet. She was a fantastic mare that I had the privilege to drive. I fed her, and groomed her, and spent the day with her, and put her to bed at night. She died a horrible, gruesome death, exacerbated by the lunatic, know-nothing morons who hurled invective and threatened death on her driver for trying to get her up off the street. They impeded his efforts, and took his attention away from her, and her death was worse for it.

You’re no better than they are, and you’re not fit to type her name.[/QUOTE]

That’s a Yes then, that they swapped out horses?

[Lynnwood]

[QUOTE=MHM;7177473]
You can assume anything you like, although you’ve probably heard the old saw about what happens when you assume.

I try not to assume, but to gather facts to form an opinion.

I’m still waiting for a simple yes or no answer to this question.[/QUOTE]

I don’t know anything about Juliet.

Jerry was identified as Jerry from the moment he faltered. The miss identification came almost a week later by the companies owner. Who in (not defending at all btw) some error in critical thinking got fed up with the threats of physical harm she and her employee’s were receiving and gave the press the photo of another grey horse standing in the barn isle stating it was Jerry.

She immediately admitted it was not Jerry and spoke to her judgment error and reasons for doing so.

Do I think she make a huge error in judgment yep. Do I believe it is “evidence” horses are substituted all the time not by a long shot.

Do I think that what some private carriage company did in Utah, has a damn thing to do with the horses in NYC … I don’t believe any reasonable person would go there.

[michaleenflynn]

[QUOTE=Angela Freda;7177483]
That’s a Yes then, that they swapped out horses?[/QUOTE]

Yes, Angela, they were “swapped out” - as a matter of fact, I’m swapping out one as we speak…hang on, gotta open this can of acrylic…oooh, easy there…

I was actually coming around to think that you were better than this sort of thing. Oh well.

No, Angela - it is a dirty, rotten, toxic, bullcrap LIE.

Is that plain enough for you?

BTW, did you demand to know if it was true from the person who asserted it to begin with? Of course you didn’t - you don’t even know how or where it started, unless Lizzie has contacted you as well.

Truly pathetic.

[MHM]

[QUOTE=michaleenflynn;7177479]
Holy jumpin’ Jehosaphat.

Are you writing mystery novels with help from Elizabeth Forel? Sure sounds like it.

Or are you just a conspiracy nut, and extrapolate that worldview out to everything you encounter at large?

You just keep throwing the poop, hoping something will stick - even after I offered you a personal tour, at your convenience, at the busy holiday season. Offer withdrawn - no WAY do you deserve my generosity.

There is no hope for those like you who cannot bottle the acid. Did you say you were a prosecutor? Did you use those types of tactics - positing wild, unsubstantiated allegations and second-hand propaganda as fact, or insinuating as much? Blech.

How many horses and stalls and farriers do you think we have for this merry-go-round of number changing you see in your twisted dreams? It is so ludicrous as to be laughable. Yeah, people are re-branding their horses everyday @@ I take back what I said earlier - it wouldn’t even make good fiction.

As for Jerry in Utah, I’ll have you know that I personally called that owner and ripped her up and down for lying and mishandling the entire situation – I told her over and over again to just ADMIT that Jerry was dead, which she would not even admit to me, but I knew anyway. I told her that here in NYC, EVERYTHING we do is above board, that that is the ONLY way to operate; I tried to give her the benefit of my experience, she would have none of it. Utah has NOTHING to do with NYC.

As for your last paragraph - our upper floor stalls are NOT “portable” (where the hell did that come from?), nor are they always “lined up on each side of the building.” Again, you know NOTHING. And sprinklers are NOT essential - they were put in at OUR expense, pro-actively, in the absence of ANY law requiring us to do so. No, Shamrock Stables did not have a sprinkler system, WRONG AGAIN.

Lastly, I just gotta say that I get a particular tightening in my gut when I hear people like you - toxic, nasty, cynical, accusatory, unrelenting, and not open to the truth - mention the name of one of our horses. You didn’t know Juliet. She was a fantastic mare that I had the privilege to drive. I fed her, and groomed her, and spent the day with her, and put her to bed at night. She died a horrible, gruesome death, exacerbated by the lunatic, know-nothing morons who hurled invective and threatened death on her driver for trying to get her up off the street. They impeded his efforts, and took his attention away from her, and her death was worse for it.

You’re no better than they are, and you’re not fit to type her name.[/QUOTE]
Again, way to make friends and influence people. Not.

If you’re alienating people on a horse BB, where many might be sympathetic to your plight, what happens when you interact with the general public?

I’m still waiting for the answer to the question I’ve asked three times. Is it true Juliet was wearing another horse’s identification tags when she died?

[Paragon]

[QUOTE=michaleenflynn;7177479]
You didn’t know Juliet. She was a fantastic mare that I had the privilege to drive. I fed her, and groomed her, and spent the day with her, and put her to bed at night. She died a horrible, gruesome death, exacerbated by the lunatic, know-nothing morons who hurled invective and threatened death on her driver for trying to get her up off the street. They impeded his efforts, and took his attention away from her, and her death was worse for it.[/QUOTE]

This absolutely breaks my heart. If there’s one thing to take away from this whole thread, I think this is it.

It reminds me of the so-called vet, Mary Xanthos, who raced to the scene of a horse who stumbled while pulling a carriage in NYC. She shoved aside bystanders not to help, but to shove her camera phone at the horse, screaming hysterically and flailing about, hindering the driver in their attempts to get the horse back to his feet.

Can you IMAGINE the outrage if this happened at a horse show? If the stands emptied when Hickstead dropped dead, people shoving one another aside to get a good shot of the dead horse? If they raced onto the field and began screaming in hysterics that Eric Lamaze was a murderer who killed his horse? That’s NYC.

Or if PETA had showed up to “hold vigil” at the scene of Teddy O’Connor’s tragic accident? Showing up at events and carrying pictures of his body, chanting about the killers who don’t care about horses, who earn money off their suffering and put them in the ground when they finally break down? That’s NYC.

You see, facts don’t matter to them. That these horses are LOVED by every person who works with them is immaterial. The horses I named meant something, not only to their owners and riders, but to all of us. The horses in NYC have stories, they have people who love them, but they don’t have stories to captivate listeners and inspire a following. They can’t be seen on television or read about in the Chronicle. To support them, for most of us, is just an intellectual exercise.

But I assure you, if you haven’t been there, you cannot understand. Don’t be fooled.

[LauraKY]

[QUOTE=Lynnwood;7177458]
And you wonder why some of the people in the industry respond defensively dealing with the likes of her everyday. :([/QUOTE]

That’s an excuse, not a reason. It’s only hurting them, not helping and I don’t know why they can’t see it.

[MHM]

[QUOTE=LauraKY;7177503]
That’s an excuse, not a reason. It’s only hurting them, not helping and I don’t know why they can’t see it.[/QUOTE]
Again, I concur.

[Paragon]

I can’t count the number of times I found two ponies wearing each others’ halters. They liked to play “fetch” with the barn staff - life-long stable hands - throwing their halters on the grounds, and the halters would get put back on the wrong hooks. The next people who took the horses out of their stalls would grab the halters without a second thought and use them without checking the name. The ponies were the same size, so it was a simple oversight.

I don’t know Juliet, but as some have said here, perhaps not everything is a conspiracy.

[michaleenflynn]

[QUOTE=MHM;7177499]
Again, way to make friends and influence people. Not.

If you’re alienating people on a horse BB, where many might be sympathetic to your plight, what happens when you interact with the general public?

I’m still waiting for the answer to the question I’ve asked three times. Is it true Juliet was wearing another horse’s identification tags when she died?[/QUOTE]

I’m not here to “make friends” and “influence people” - I’m here to tell the truth. I leave the pandering, schmoozing, faux diplomacy etc to the likes of Nislick and deBlasio et al.

If you don’t know the truth when you hear it, that’s your problem.

If you are “sympathetic to our plight”, then nothing I am or do or say would change that, if it were real.

I have been interacting with the general public since 1981, and I do just fine, thanx for your concern.

If you think you are the first person to give “you better be nice or we won’t like you speech”, you’re wrong.

…and you’re waiting for an answer I have already provided. Scroll.

And make sure you hold your sources for the lie to the same standard.