Why spit it at all then? 15 is not that large a class.
[QUOTE=mvp;8304640]
But what neither of you said was that Betsee Parker’s degree is honorary. http://www.albany.edu/academics/honorary.degree.shtml
I don’t think anyone, other than Sheila Johnson, actually used the title. Johnson’s biography says she has two such degrees, one is also from SUNY Morrisville.
I think these have to do with financial giving.[/QUOTE]
Hmmm, so it seems Betsee Parker has a history of buying herself honorary things?
[QUOTE=Ghazzu;8304567]
do we really know that, though?[/QUOTE]
No we don’t, which is very unfortunate. But Inclusive is the one under the magnifying glass right now, not the others. But I know that when I’m watching the juniors/equitation finals at indoors this season, I’ll be wondering about all of her mounts.
Does Betsee have any experience with horses besides owning them? Did she ride back in the day, etc?
[QUOTE=Carolinadreamin’;8304671]
Hmmm, so it seems Betsee Parker has a history of buying herself honorary things?[/QUOTE]
I’ll never forget that in 2014 Caitlin Boyle (who is a wonderful, hardworking young lady) had a magnificent Devon riding Clearway. She won the Ronnie Mutch Championship. Not 2 weeks later, Betsee bought Clearway so only Tori could ride him… :rolleyes:
[QUOTE=EAY;8304664]
Why spit it at all then? 15 is not that large a class.[/QUOTE]
The prize list has has both smalls and larges…split by age…15 and under is youngers…16-17 is olders…usef requires 6 horses to compete in each section. That requirement was met. It would have made a huge difference to those younger juniors not to mention the difference in prize money paid back in those classes. People came to this horse show with expectations the divisions would be split by age. The entries were there prior to the start of the class. I’m not sure why anyone would think this ok. These are kids! Upperville is a big deal to them…and then the 100 score thing…final slap in the face
[QUOTE=supernatural;8304709]
The prize list has has both smalls and larges…split by age…15 and under is youngers…16-17 is olders…usef requires 6 horses to compete in each section. That requirement was met. It would have made a huge difference to those younger juniors not to mention the difference in prize money paid back in those classes. People came to this horse show with expectations the divisions would be split by age. The entries were there prior to the start of the class. I’m not sure why anyone would think this ok. These are kids! Upperville is a big deal to them…and then the 100 score thing…final slap in the face[/QUOTE]
I’m trying really hard to follow your story, but I’m not getting it. Are you saying Way Cool did get first or second with a 72? And somehow this is the result of the California split?
Some here may be unaware that the current USEF rules which were in effect last year and remain in effect until the end of the current show year, Nov 30, do not allow including a minor in disciplinary actions.
That changes Dec 1. There was great debate over that change since they are minors and nobody wants to go after an 8 year old, including a contentious thread on here. What nobody knew at the time was this situation was brewing and many have since come onboard with it, the new rules do allow some disgression in including minors in disciplinary actions. Little doubt this rather sudden rule change inspired the change. But it’s not going to apply in this case.
Like many, don’t know BP but do know several whose kids catch rode for her. In their case the kids really, honestly had nothing to do with the horse/Pony, met it and it’s trainer at the ring gate, handed the reins off immediately on exiting, see ya later bye. Like a jockey at the track. While nobody said anything to me specifically, got the distinct impression there was major expectation and pressure on even the younger kids, some lasted longer then others but none stayed anywhere near the length of time TC has. They and their parents really were not eager to talk about it beyond how generous she was to give them the ride blah, blah, blah. No details. Ever.
Always wondered about that whole TC BP arrangement and reading all this makes me doubt anybody had TCs welfare in mind from a very early age, kind of like a kid media or sports star. Sad.
And no I don’t think calmatives are abusive any more then proper use of NSAIDS. What is abusive is when the supplements, drug du jour that doesn’t test and the NSAIDS get stacked in multiple combinations at levels far in excess of recommended dosage or even common sense. Vets are starting to caution against over supplementation and random recipes…except for the ones selling the stuff turning a blind eye to side effects. You know, like colic, falling over or dropping dead in the cross ties
There is a huge difference in making a veteran comfortable or taking the edge off legally and what is being done to keep the lame going despite pain and get the unsuitable around well enough to sell ir keep the client signing checks.
That is abuse in the name of self gratification. And dont tell me it does not happen in Europe or the FEI creates a pristine environment dedicated to horse welfare.
[QUOTE=supernatural;8304577]
There were enough to split by age. A horse was added PRIOR to the Large Junior section starting to ensure division split…office personnel happy it was being split…when several trainers went to ingate…woman running the ingate said it didn’t matter…that the judges wanted a California Split. When one trainer said to her they did not think it was fair to the youngers since there were now at least 6 in each section the gate woman replied…“You just need to suck it up and compete against VC…”
Pretty much drama all day at Junior Ring…Small Juniors got combined because of clerical error…Woman working at ingate beyond rude to several trainers.
One younger would have been champion had division been split properly…quite possibly grand junior. I think people were so angry after the small juniors went they just threw their hands up in the air. It was wrong…wrong…steward at jumper ring by time they got to Hunter 1 ring…large combined started.[/QUOTE]
Splitting a class is at the order of management, not the judges. In all my years of showing and judging and for that matter, managing, have I never seen it any other way.
[QUOTE=Mardi;8302386]
TC isn’t an average teenager, and she’s certainly displayed the wherewithall to be able to decline showing drugged horses (if she wanted to).[/QUOTE]
Really? I don’t see how telling a trainer you’d like the horse’s jump school to go differently is equal to “Quit drugging the horse, or I walk” is the same thing. I think Tory Colvin knew what would get her fired and stopped short of that. I think that if she pissed of Ken Berkley so badly, that was a miscalculation on her part.
[QUOTE=mvp;8304773]
Really? I don’t see how telling a trainer you’d like the horse’s jump school to go differently is equal to “Quit drugging the horse, or I walk” is the same thing. I think Tory Colvin knew what would get her fired and stopped short of that. I think that if she pissed of Ken Berkley so badly, that was a miscalculation on her part.[/QUOTE]
Of course its not the same thing – but it is the same thought process. … while having no knowledge of the situation, your suggestion that it was a calculated decision of how much could be said and still keep the ride is certainly an adult calculated thought process
What a sordid little drama. What a disgraceful bunch of sociopathic pot-hunters.
Not sure that I ever thought I would connect this to real life but here goes.
I think it was Dick Francis’ novel “For Kicks” that included a plot of a character drugging horses while in the paddock of the racetrack. The method used was, as I recall, a bulb that held the very small dose of the drug with a needle attached. The bad guy simply slapped the horse on the rump or neck and pressed the bulb, thus giving an im injection without your typical syringe or needle. Nor attracting attention.
Now I don’t even know that this exists, but historically the ‘bad’ guys knew how to think outside the box. It could be that we’re not devious enough to think how to achieve this kind of infraction. That’s not such a bad thing.
Emily
[QUOTE=juststartingout;8304775]
Of course its not the same thing – but it is the same thought process. … while having no knowledge of the situation, your suggestion that it was a calculated decision of how much could be said and still keep the ride is certainly an adult calculated thought process[/QUOTE]d
I don’t think a seasoned junior catch-rider at the top of this sport doesn’t know which side her bread is buttered on. And everyone is calculating… down to the toddler who waits until you are out of the room to reach for the cookie jar… and only gets caught because he hasn’t yet learned that sound carries.
It’s not a criticism or a surprise that people of any age try to maximize their gain and minimize negative consequences. But adults are usually better at it, that’s all.
[QUOTE=Davignport;8304661]
I have to say it takes some set of balls to go to HITS and compete as if nothing is wrong. I guess it is just another “photo op” for the dreadful Dr. Parker. As for Tori, yes she is a child but, come on, with what has been going on, why even be there? The horse has won EVERYTHING he possibly can. Is one more ribbon and winners photo worth that much of your integrity? Makes you wonder about all those great round Tori and Inclusive had, doesn’t it? Makes me sick, the whole bunch of them. Just get out…[/QUOTE]
The big deal in the stay was that this is Tori’s last 3 months in the juniors and she has some of her biggest career-highlight shows coming up, before she ‘expires’ as a junior. The whole point was to get both BC and TC to those shows.
Besides that, they kind of have to go and put a good face on it. They are maintaining their innocence, so why should they be punished by not showing?
This is the genie that is out of the bottle, for the rest of Tori’s equestrian life. I wonder if BC completely understood that when she filed that suit. But I’d guess her priority was to be present at the most important junior shows of Tori’s career, coming up.
With a side note that I feel I have to keep up with this thread or it will get away from me … like that matters. :winkgrin:
Yup - you’d be surprised how many people don’t think through all the ramifications before filing suit. People who aren’t litigators just assume that when they go to court it will be easy and fun and they’ll get to say why they’re right and then they’ll win and get their attorney’s fees paid by the other losing side. All while all of their dirty laundry stays confidential.
Very rarely does it work out that way.
[QUOTE=mvp;8305016]
d
I don’t think a seasoned junior catch-rider at the top of this sport doesn’t know which side her bread is buttered on. And everyone is calculating… down to the toddler who waits until you are out of the room to reach for the cookie jar… and only gets caught because he hasn’t yet learned that sound carries.
It’s not a criticism or a surprise that people of any age try to maximize their gain and minimize negative consequences. But adults are usually better at it, that’s all.[/QUOTE]
Yes - everyone tries to maximize their performance - but some people try to do that within the rules, some choose ignorance to the rules, and some choose to violate the rules to gain advantage.
The toddler you describe is still learning the right and wrong and has no moral code to speak of. But they learn right and wrong and develop a moral code by being held responsible for their behavior in an age appropriate way.
As long as there is a willingness to excuse behavior which the actor knows is wrong, there is every reason to push the edge and break through the envelop.
FWIW some teens approaching adulthood as such as or more competent at manipulation as adults.
[QUOTE=Darkwave;8305078]
Yup - you’d be surprised how many people don’t think through all the ramifications before filing suit. People who aren’t litigators just assume that when they go to court it will be easy and fun and they’ll get to say why they’re right and then they’ll win and get their attorney’s fees paid by the other losing side. All while all of their dirty laundry stays confidential.
Very rarely does it work out that way.[/QUOTE]
You’d also be surprised how fast people forget. It’s really interesting to go through the FEI Tribunal archives
Whatever BC’s reason for filing the suit, I’d like to thank her. Being able to read the transcript of a USEF Hearing Committee with well known people in attendance (both as witnesses and committee members) was very, um, “illuminating”.
The curtain was pulled back, and wow, what a view!
The parties involved are now meaningless to me, no matter how often they win this title or that one. I have no interest in watching them - rider, owner, trainer, horses - compete in the future, or reading about them.
Here’s the sad part. You don’t need to be that sneaky or covert about giving a horse an IV/IM shot in and around the showgrounds because it’s totally commonplace, most people aren’t going to say something, and the odds of someone reporting it formally AND/OR you being the horse that’s randomly tested is small. Now, if the winners always got tested that’d be a different story.
I can’t tell you how many times in the past I’ve seen a horse getting something— an injection*, a paste. No one’s hiding it. I don’t know what it is and even if I went looking for a steward-- by the time I found one and got back the horse would be long gone. I don’t have much confidence that a steward would do much. For all I know, what’s been done is permitted. People do it in a millisecond and keep on moving. Have you seen the sharps containers at even small rated shows? That’s a lot of sharps!
As it stands, you can basically drug right out in public. Half the people who see you are doing it too so aren’t about to make a fuss, the other half can’t/won’t do anything and the USEF is a fox guarding the henhouse and basically doesn’t care except when they MUST do something and or make an example. Then they slap the wrist and keep on keeping on.
*=this was before the “vet must inject on showgrounds” rule went into place. I would hope that’s helping somewhat but I am cynical and think it’s likely to have minimal effect.
^^^ I wondered if people thought I was "giving my horse something " when in actual fact I was syrynging electrolytes into his mouth (he won’t eat or drink them!) terrible that those of us who are NOT drugging feel all weirded out because of the bad seeds who do!
