There are tons of amateur level competitions of all kinds that don’t require any real talent. However, if you don’t have some athletic ability, you are going to lose. With horses, the super A/A packer will save our butts now and then. Examples are masters swimming, triathlon, amateur cycling, any of a million running races from 5k to marathon or ultra or trail events, your local golf club or tennis club tournaments, basketball or softball leagues, amateur level ski racing of all types, amateur level motorcycle racing, ultimate frisbee or flag football or rugby leagues, etc. etc. The monetary commitment varies. The “level” of competition varies such as whether or not you are running the Boston marathon as a qualifier or as a charity runner or whether you are just running your local no-restrictions marathon. I guess it used to be that there was more variety of competition in our sport as well when you could spend some time on the B/C circuit as needed.
Just thought I’d weigh in as a physician-understanding the pharmacology of drugs.
Magnesium in the IV form at high doses (2 grams) makes people feel very fuzzy, limbs get heavy and is used for a variety of reasons-trying to stop preterm labor, in helping to stop a heart attack, dysarrythmias of the heart…it causes vasodilation, and decreases neuromuscular transmission.
Xanax was mentioned somewhere in the thread-it is a benzodiazepine and is used for anxiety. However, it does have a depressant component and therefore is considered a “downer” so to speak. Interestingly enough…it is linked to the GABA receptor so funny it was mentioned…Acts on the benzodiazepine binding site on the chloride channel of the gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA), an inhibitory neurotransmitter receptor in the CNS…prevents nerve firing/stimulation, resulting in generalized depression of spinal reflexes causing CNS depression.
The fact that Perfect Prep finds it good business to be a big sponsor speaks for itself.
Haven’t noticed that Perfect Prep or other calmers are much in evidence as sponsors in other disciplines …
[QUOTE=Jelleigh;8318628]
Xanax was mentioned somewhere in the thread-it is a benzodiazepine and is used for anxiety. However, it does have a depressant component and therefore is considered a “downer” so to speak. Interestingly enough…it is linked to the GABA receptor so funny it was mentioned…Acts on the benzodiazepine binding site on the chloride channel of the gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA), an inhibitory neurotransmitter receptor in the CNS…prevents nerve firing/stimulation, resulting in generalized depression of spinal reflexes causing CNS depression.[/QUOTE]
That’s why I picked it. As I understand it, it’s not technically classified as a depressant, though it can have a depressant effect. And you can see how it might be calming and why it might be tempting to use something of that sort to calm a horse. I think we could all agree giving it to a horse violates the rules, and that a reading of the rules that suggests otherwise is illogical.
Just for clarity - the benzodiazepines are specifically listed as a forbidden substance.
[QUOTE=OverandOnward;8318635]
The fact that Perfect Prep finds it good business to be a big sponsor speaks for itself.
Haven’t noticed that Perfect Prep or other calmers are much in evidence as sponsors in other disciplines …[/QUOTE]
On the Perfect Products website, they have a variety of sponsored athletes in different disciplines, including Western, Arabian, Saddleseat, Dressage…
[QUOTE=IPEsq;8318554]
There are tons of amateur level competitions of all kinds that don’t require any real talent. However, if you don’t have some athletic ability, you are going to lose. With horses, the super A/A packer will save our butts now and then. Examples are masters swimming, triathlon, amateur cycling, any of a million running races from 5k to marathon or ultra or trail events, your local golf club or tennis club tournaments, basketball or softball leagues, amateur level ski racing of all types, amateur level motorcycle racing, ultimate frisbee or flag football or rugby leagues, etc. etc. The monetary commitment varies. The “level” of competition varies such as whether or not you are running the Boston marathon as a qualifier or as a charity runner or whether you are just running your local no-restrictions marathon. I guess it used to be that there was more variety of competition in our sport as well when you could spend some time on the B/C circuit as needed.[/QUOTE]
Well, strictly speaking, no sport or level requires “talent”, an innate predisposition. They all require willingness to work hard enough to acquire the necessary skills, physical (rather than aptitude-based) limits allowing (even a short person can become good at basketball if they try hard enough.) Where riding is unusual is in most other cases, money can’t buy shortcuts–you either have to put in the work, even if you’re naturally gifted, or you’re going to fail. And hard work just puts you on the ladder. With horses, if you have the financial resources, you can buy your way to winning via a shortcut.
[QUOTE=phanilah;8318525]
There is a HUGE difference between injectable magnesium sulfate and giving magnesium supplementation orally - injectable mag sulfate can cause collapse and even be lethal if not dosed and/or administered properly…that’s why it is such a concern.[/QUOTE]
This is true.
IV magnesium’s primary use was as a general anesthetic, often in conjunction with other agents.
There is no legitimate indication for IV administration of IV mag to a show horse.
OTOH, oral supplementation of magnesium has been shown to be of some benefit in horses with insulin resistance, and attempts to achieve significant sedation using oral compounds would be more likely to produce screaming diarrhea.
It would be interesting to know if it potentiated other substances, but there’s no information on that out there. (and I toss this out as more of an idle thought than a strong suspicion.)
Anyone can play a variety of sports at a variety of levels. MikeMCS’s post specifically mention TOP athletes in sports. You are not going to make it to the top without all the required pieces…whereas in equestrian sports, you can fudge a few because you compete with a partner. Not the best at seeing a distance? Find a good horse with its own natural eye. Not the best at keeping a horse content and mellow? Drug it a bit (<—his point, I believe).
all the pieces need to be there to get to the top of any sport, but because there are two athletes involved with horse sports, if you can make one cover for the other, you have a better shot…thus drugging, calming, etc
I’m a newbie at this forum so please forgive any mistakes I may make. I have two thoughts or questions. A horse can not give it self any drugs, it’s human contact does that. So therfore, a horse does not have freedom of choice. In my book that constitues abuse at some point. If you were to inject a person drugs without permission, that is illegal and abuse.
Just out of curiousity… Who owned Inclusive before BP and has he ever been shown by anyone other than TC? How did he perform then?
[QUOTE=carroal;8316000]
Well b&c are not options for these people. Especially if you are living on the circuit and want to go to indoors - the holy grail. You have to show constantly even in the hunters to get enough points. And then the eq is constant showing because it’s point based. When juniors and their parents are into this lifestyle they don’t even go to school because they are not home enough. Not showing is just not option.[/QUOTE]
Maybe the qualifications need to be changed to limit the number of shows to accumulate points.
Shows used to be a special occasion, not a lifestyle…
Unfortunately, this isn’t a great argument because there are a lot of things we give our horses that are beneficial to them. Your argument is a slippery slope of “anything that the horse doesn’t choose for itself is abusive,” which I don’t think anyone would agree with.
[QUOTE=hb;8318977]
Maybe the qualifications need to be changed to limit the number of shows to accumulate points.[/QUOTE]
Entries for hunter divisions at Devon, Harrisburg, Washington, and the National Horse Show are based on point totals for the horse’s best 15 shows during the qualifying period. It has been that way for several years.
[QUOTE=MHM;8319001]
Entries for hunter divisions at Devon, Harrisburg, Washington, and the National Horse Show are based on point totals for the horse’s best 15 shows during the qualifying period. It has been that way for several years.[/QUOTE]
Not arguing for or against, but best 15 is different from, say, first 15. Might take 47 shows for some to get a good 15.
[QUOTE=BLBGP;8319009]
Not arguing for or against, but best 15 is different from, say, first 15. Might take 47 shows for some to get a good 15.[/QUOTE]
That may be, but there is a set number of shows for points already in place, for those who are unaware of it.
I do know somebody who qualified for Indoors last year after going to about 8 shows, but she did very, very well at those 8 shows, and got good ribbons at Harrisburg and the National Horse Show. She elected to skip Washington.
[QUOTE=RugBug;8319000]
Unfortunately, this isn’t a great argument because there are a lot of things we give our horses that are beneficial to them. Your argument is a slippery slope of “anything that the horse doesn’t choose for itself is abusive,” which I don’t think anyone would agree with.[/QUOTE]
I give my cat a daily shot of Benadryl. I can assure you that she would not choose it for herself. But it is quite beneficial for her.
[QUOTE=hb;8318977]
Maybe the qualifications need to be changed to limit the number of shows to accumulate points.
Shows used to be a special occasion, not a lifestyle…[/QUOTE]
That was tried. The best 15 shows counted. But people kept right on showing, trying to better their results, so the mediocre shows did not count.
Liars gonna lie, cheaters gonna cheat and point chasers gonna chase points.
[QUOTE=MHM;8319014]
That may be, but there is a set number of shows for points already in place, for those who are unaware of it.[/QUOTE]
Clarify?
[QUOTE=SnicklefritzG;8318273]
When people like Paul Valliere can come back on the scene and get clients both for training and clinics, that’s shamefull. I think he should be banned from horse stuff permanently. It’s hard to believe that people still want to train with these people.[/QUOTE]
This is my A#1 thing-that-makes-the-top-of-my-head-blow-off. That he can pull it off, and that there is any demand whatsoever for his services.
I said it constitues abuse at Some Point. Believe me I agree fully that GABA is illegal plus abusive and that calmers alter a horse’s performance and therefore is cheating. I have written a book that revolved around the A circuit and had a number of horse people read the manuscript for me. After speaking with one of the proofreaders and hearing that the main consensus on the circuit is, “If you ain’t winning you’re not cheating” and after reading the transcript and reading this thread I’m wondering do I really want to promote this industry?
