You don’t seem to understand that dressage is a process. You don’t start from Day 1 with a really great piaffe and passage when you ask for it. You have to build both the horse’s understanding and the musculature over years.
I am starting the piaffe/passage feel on my horse now. If I am very lucky, I will be ready to show at that level in 5-6 years. And my lovely horse will still not be Glamourdale.
He isnt working over his back with a raised back from a pushing, lowered haunches.(EDITED: WOW, I wrote this before I read the electric horseman quote. I guess I have learned to see a thing or two…)
I listed where I think he is not meeting the extended trot criteria - he’s fairly level in his balance, meaning he doesn’t have the impulsion required for an extended trot… Lengthened != extended, but a lot of people see something bigger than a working trot and think that is automatically an extended trot.
that’s because they are seriously driving forward and have sheer speed
And that’s EXACTLY part of the problem, they are looking at flash and giant movement and not looking (had enough) at correctness of movement
The trot is fine, in and of itself, but the horse isn’t on the bit, nor uphill, nor pushing from behind. Therefore it wouldn’t score well past First Level. It’s not just about the directives for the movements, but the requirements of each level.
I agree with you 1000%
While I am sure some judges are looking at and rewarding giant movement over other perhaps equally or more important qualifiers for dressage, a standardbred race horse trotting for the finish line and a leg flinging warmblood aren’t exactly the same thing 
which I think you understand but perhaps that point may have been lost.
You are totally misunderstanding the comments if you think that the cob is a good example of overtrack in modern dressage scoring. The movements are nothing like each other.
The cob is not through or “on the bit”…the rider has light contact. That is not acceptance of the bit. It is nothing like being through. Being through and accepting the bit is on the general requirements posted, not necessarily for the movement but the overall requirements.
In that video, there is no connection between the bit and the hind leg.
If you can’t see that I don’t know what to say. What level do you ride and what are your scores?
I disagree with your characterization of judging and riding today. I think you missed my point about balance.
I disagree that judges favor “leg flingers” and so we probably won’t agree on this subject.
I disagree that modern breeding produces “long-legged loose-goosey” horses with hypermobility issues. Most of us don’t own what you describe. Again, we probably won’t agree on this subject because you seem to view modern dressage very negatively.
I very much agree that the current dressage horses are better movers than 60 years ago. They were heavier and weren’t built as well biomechanically to do the job. Sure, I’m not a fan of how light and hot some lines have become but that doesn’t describe all lines. Again, we won’t agree on this subject and you seem to have your mind made up.
I know very many people who show regularly today and are great trainers. I don’t know anyone who trains horses for the judge. I’ve never known anyone who trains for the judge. I believe the young horse classes and championships can be very hard physically on horses and am not a fan at all of young horse auctions. But I don’t know any trainer at that level (personally) that risks the soundness of the horse to win a class. It is odd that you think that all modern dressage showing today requires a bastardized version of “correct movement”. I’m glad our dressage circles seem to be very separate.
Good dressage judges don’t reward flashy movers over “correct and pure” movers. Some flashy movers are correct and pure. Some economical movers just lengthen/do medium rather than extend.
You seem very, very negative about dressage and judging. Unfortunately, we see dressage horses, training, judging, and seemingly much of the sport differently. That’s cool, but it seems like you have your mind made up.
Thanks for the response!
So I went back an looked at the Cob stallion. I stand by my comments based on about the first 20 seconds when the horse is trotting on the flat asphalt road vs later when he is going cross country.
The horse has “light contact” on the snaffle. Agreed. How does that not indicate he is not accepting the bit?
The directives say lengthening of the frame…the horse is exhibiting a lengthened frame.
You say no connection between bit and hind leg? On what do you base that comment? The rider is obviously controlling the direction and speed, so there has to be connection to the bit. Please show me where I’m wrong.
Maybe I am a dinosaur of an old engineering professor, but I require my students to have supporting documentation or empirical observations to support their opinions. I give extra credit for questions that “stump the professor” and cause me to go back an research an answer.
Then again, you could call me an old curmudgeon and let’s agree to disagree.
I do appreciate the posting on Dr. Max’ article discussing “On the Bit.” I have cliniced with Bettina Drummond and she is a hard taskmaster. Fortunately she is still with us to provide guidance.
Thank you for providing that link. I had forgotten about the Eclectic Horseman web pages. Here is a tidbit of on the bit
Also, what further seems to justify to pull together the front of the horse, and often behind the vertical and call it Dressage, are photos shown in European and in American Dressage magazines of winning teams with an incorrect, pulled together, short frame in front. Even though we always speak of Classical Dressage, nobody seems to go back to the original drawings and photos of the past. Interestingly enough, this concept of having a horse in front of you and with a head carriage more in front of the vertical the more it is collected is clearly depicted in the pictures of Müseler, (see diagram on facing page), which were adopted as correct by the FEI as long as Niggli was its chief but have pretty much fallen by the wayside as of now.
You’ve apparently missed years’ worth of discussions right in this forum about how this had become a trend.
LOL, no, most of us don’t own upper level horses, or even horses bred for the UL but who didn’t quite make the cut
I’m not alone - again, the discussions have been had by those actually competing at the UL right here. I DO think things have been changing, but it takes time
Nobody said otherwise. The problem is that it’s a FACT that flash with less correctness gets rewarded over more correct, but less flashy movement by judges who are not the good ones. And not just at lower levels. Fact. GOOD riders don’t ride in RK, but it’s a fact that some riders train that way, It’s a fact that GOOD farriers trim properly, but it’s a fact that some farriers don’t. My point is - GOOD humans do the right things, but not all humans are “good” in context.
You’ve entirely missed the point of all this. You’ve claimed everything is better today, full stop. Rose colored classes I have never said I don’t like Dressage at all, but I HAVE pointed out that there are many things wrong with today’s Dressage world. That’s not my opinion.
still not extended trot, no matter how big his stride is. You’re missing the points about what the body has to be doing in order to qualify for extension and he doesn’t have it.
Overtracks can be achieved quite naturally. Some horses just come-that-way due to structure and with no training whatsoever.
I only have a few of these. Like four out of 25. Not one of them purposely bred (three mustangs and one mutt) and no observable hypermobility issues.
Of the many things i really liked about this link (https://eclectic-horseman.com/the-definition-of-on-the-bit/) was how in olden times horses were trained first with a hackamore. The philosophy of that, the horsemanship of that, is soul-satisfying to me. Also, the thing where horses noses can be(? are to be?) in front of the vertical also feels right to me too. Something about it just seems more beautiful. More fair and more representative of a horse>rider meld. I don’t know what judges want and my coach is trying to train me as-to what i’m feeling for in my mounts’ movements, but i have zero idea how they look (no vids/no mirrors) and sometimes i even close my eyes to ride and feel.
I’d be more interested in how that cute little road-warrior Welsh cob feels, how responsive he is to subtle aids. If he’s that, well then i’d say he’s worthy of a show ring. But i have a feeling that he is flying out there on his own and rider is pretty much just staying on.
Do you know anything about the weight of a race bike? There is almost zero pulling involved. I’ve “pulled” a race bike with my daughter in it with one hand, they are amazing light. We’re not talking about a Meadowbrook cart. There is minimal pulling or leaning involved. I think many Standardbreds would make excellent dressage horses, though some don’t have the quality canter required, though many do.
They have that same longish body, and wither-thing that TBs do. My SB has a nice enough canter…it’s his ‘trot’ that is NQR. He can-do, but he’s a natural pacer, so even at his best it’s pretty lateral. But then, he’s just one year into being backed and i only ride him with my coach one or two times a month. He might improve in time. He’ll never be a show horse, but is becoming a good riding, mild tempered, unflappable farm horse.
I have thought this about ST too. The trot at liberty is fantastic, once they get over pacing. But the canter is a challenge for many. Also I have seen a number of OTSB as saddle horses, but only with newbies and ammies and yeah, kind of a hot mess. I haven’t seen any SB under training with a competent trainer, because the bargain horse of choice remains the OTTB. We have SB and TB tracks locally so lots of projects.
It is of course harness blood that contributes to the huge trot of the modern WB and lots of people dabbling in other harness breeds like Friesian and DHH and even Hackney for lower level dressage because of the trot capacity. But all these breeds are challenged at the canter and collection to some degree as indeed are some WB.
On the other hand, Iberians come factory installed with collection and canter and handiness, but the trot needs development and will never look like a SB running free.
I’ve never owned a TB, though have ridden them. The ones i’ve known well look similar, but are quirkier. SBs have such great dispositions. The only one i ever met was one decades ago (a trotter not a pacer) in a barn where i boarded. I was always so impressed with him under saddle and wanted one of my very own someday. As far as quality of gaits, people seems to all agree that TBs are better. I think they’re structurally so similar that until you get to the head it’s hard to tell them apart, so why wouldn’t they move similarly?
Sorry, not sure I read this right. Are you saying SB and TB look the same except for the head? That’s what the following post responds to, apologies if I got it wrong
If you are saying TB all look the same except for the head I’d respectfully disagree. We have track trainers at our barn in addition to riding horse TB. There’s a lot of variation which is why eventer and jumper trainers think about bloodline and also evaluate the horse in front of them. A lot of difference in conformation and movement and temper.
My experience is that they move very differently and they are built very differently in most cases.
TB obviously excel at canter and gallop. They come with canter factory installed. That makes them perfect for eventing and excellent for jumpers, and they used to be the horse of choice for hunters. The downside is that they are hot and they can be fragile, and track experience exacerbates both these qualities. In many ways they are the perfect ideal of an English style riding horse. In order to compensate for those two qualities, people used to try crossbreeds of TB and draft or Cleveland Bay etc to get a “heavy hunter” type with more bone. The European WB is purpose bred to make this kind of horse with the excellent qualities of a TB but more bone and perhaps less bounce.
The SB is a harness horse whose best gait is trot or pace. Not only are they prevented from cantering in harness, they often prefer the trot. They can be hot, but are definitely less fragile than TB. And their hot is more about gogogo and not as explosive or spooky as TB. Also SB race for longer than TB, so typically an OTTB is being rehomed around here at 3 or 4 while an SB can be a few years older and have an adult brain.
Neither an OTSB nor an OTTB is an easy horse for a newbie or ammie, but I agree that the SB can be less dangerous.
I’m in a large self board recreational barn and I get to see a thousand different permutations of ammie owner and bargain horse. Including disasters.
Once a TB or an SB is retrained correctly and has had time to grow up, they can both be relaxed reliable riding horses
I get to see a lot of SB and TB, and I find them quite distinct. I do find sometimes I mistake a particularly nice TB for a WB, or a slimmer WB for a TB, and of course there is a lot of TB blood in some lines of WB. Horse can have a full TB dam even. But I have never mistaken a SB for a TB,and there is no crossing between the two in recent breeding.
yeah. Those flat thin necks, steep deep shoulder, longish barrels…and lots of bays. around 16’ish. My SB has lots of bone though. I don’t have your vast personal experience…just looking at photos online.
Interesting. I can now tell a SB at 20 paces in the arena or silhouetted on the trail. Totally different from TB in significant ways. It might be one of those things where you need to see a bunch of the breed up close and watch them work before you start to see patterns
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