CREST Toothpaste for Sarcoids?

[QUOTE=Bluey;4946700]
—"Quote:
“IMPORTANT - Unlike synthetically produced medicines, the herbs featured in the Materia Medica which follows do not require absolute accuracy of dosage to guarantee success or safety.”

and further on the same page,
Quote:
“Unlike drugs, where 10cc can be the difference between life and death, herbs are not an exact science and, when using the herbs detailed in this book, being 10 or 20 grams out on the odd occasion will not make a great deal of difference.” "—

Those are very scary statements, really.:eek:

If using not enough, you will lose time the person or animal may not have to recuperate, may die on you, if whatever was used is really effective at all, something you are guessing at anyway without proper testing.

If you use too much, oh my, you may do harm or kill.:dead:
Seems that in that kind of fuzzy thinking, not knowing what you are doing is ok.:no:

What a way to dispense medical advice.:rolleyes:[/QUOTE]Hey, guess ya gotta take that up with Dr. Couzens and Ms. Page themselves. I’m just the ‘parrot’ here – They’re the ones who wrote and published the info.

[QUOTE=caballus;4946771]
Hey, guess ya gotta take that up with Dr. Couzens and Ms. Page themselves. I’m just the ‘parrot’ here – They’re the ones who wrote and published the info.[/QUOTE]

I thought you posted that because you are a follower of those kinds of fuzzy medicine.

Medicine is not an exact science, but at least we can have some known factors, backed with results from precise studies, exact amounts in what is prescribed and knowing what comes out of that preparation is one.
No need to go back to the middle ages of medicine, where you had to guess and pray.:no:

If we want to gamble that much, lets do it in Las Vegas, not with what we use for medicating.:wink:

[QUOTE=caballus;4946602]

I agree. It bothers me, also, in not knowing the mgs of an herbal ‘primary’ property. Which is why there are Certified Herbalists who know their stuff! There are certain herbs that can be used pretty safely according to Hilary Page Self – “A Modern Horse Herbal” . In that resource the amount of herbs to administer daily are given in grams. On page 15 she states in highlighted text, and further on the same page, It is also assumed by the author that “one herb only is being given to a 15.2-16hh horse.” and then further goes on to say,

Quote:
“IMPORTANT - Unlike synthetically produced medicines, the herbs featured in the Materia Medica which follows do not require absolute accuracy of dosage to guarantee success or safety.”
and further on the same page,
Quote:
“Unlike drugs, where 10cc can be the difference between life and death, herbs are not an exact science and, when using the herbs detailed in this book, being 10 or 20 grams out on the odd occasion will not make a great deal of difference.”
It is also assumed by the author that “one herb only is being given to a 15.2-16hh horse.” and then further goes on to say,
Quote:
“However, for readers who feel they need slightly more accurate guidance, an average size pony 13.2hh will need approximately 25 - 30 grams of dried herbs per day, whereas a large horse 16.1hh and upwards will need between 30 and 50 grams.”

I will also point out that this text from which I quoted is not written by a “Certified Herbalist” but drawn from Ms. Page’s personal experiences under the supervision of a veterinarian Tim Couzens, BVetMed, MRCVS, VetMFHom.

Thank you for the civil discussion this time round. [/QUOTE]

Very very worrying and it’s that sort of stuff that causes me huge concern.

Mind you I don’t understand why if you’re so worried about ensuring you know what you’re slapping on a horse that you used crest toothpaste and thuja. We’ve already established that you don’t know what crest contains. Neither do I understand why you thought if surgery could result in recurrence that meant ligature or toothpaste!

I’m thinking you really should stop selectively reading stuff and particularly things like treatments for serious conditions. Seriously it’s much better to read the totality of vets/surgeons warnings and advice for totality of understanding.

Had you done that you’d have seen that first and foremost they urge “Homeopathic and herbal medicines are entirely unpredictable. In general cell stimulators such as Allovera are contraindicated and can be very dangerous. Usually any interference has the likelihood of inducing exacerbation and the worst interference is one that has no benefit at all – this simply leaves the case with exacerbation as the only likely outcome.”

You would also have discovered that surgical treatment CAN BE the best method for say a single small lesion.

That there’s a host of other treatments.

That you didn’t need to go to toothpaste!

I think you would seriously benefit from giving the following a really careful read and to avoid the risk of thinking what you did was right and to be taken as a treatment which you can pass on to others.

http://www.liv.ac.uk/sarcoids/treatment/index.htm

Yikes. Freaky scary.

Whether or not one is simply “parroting” statements made by others, does one not stop and think “WTF” every now and then? Especially when one freely admits to being uncomfortable with the uncertainty of a particular branch of knowledge?’

If 10 grams or 20 grams makes no difference, how can one say with confidence that ANY grams ARE making a difference? :confused: Crikey, digoxin is an “herbal” remedy and getting the dose wrong will kill you dead in a day. And that’s with the kind that’s KNOWN!

Of course it’s real easy to say when one is not held to any standards . . . who’s going to hold a practitioner responsible when everything they say and do is loaded with disclaimers that they’re not really DOING anything? And that their own standards are by definition nonexistent.

Yeah, sign me up. :eek:

My vet ‘prescribed’ thuja for my 3 yr old with serious warts…1 week later they were gone.
I’ve used these ‘scary, fuzzy’ supplements for years, and know that it’s the right thing for me and my animals. IT DOESN’T JUST MASK THE SYMPTOMS, it stops what’s CAUSING the problem.
THAT is why I go the natural route.

Medicine is not an exact science, but at least we can have some known factors, backed with results from precise studies, exact amounts in what is prescribed and knowing what comes out of that preparation is one.
No need to go back to the middle ages of medicine, where you had to guess and pray.

This is funny…how many times do we hear warnings of ‘tested safe drugs’ being pulled off the market because of deaths? How many infants were needlessly deformed because of a ‘tested’ drug (thalidimide-sp?), so PLEASE spare me the ‘tested, safe’ jargon that you love to throw out there. The herbs and supplements have not ever caused these serious effects on their own.

So because of the well-publicized and dreadful mistakes that are made, we ought to chuck the whole philosophy of modern medicine? Because of thalidomide (which is quite a fantastic drug for cancer victims who cannot eat due to intractible nausea) we ought to chuck penicillin, insulin, aspirin . . . ? Because of the occasional sociopath we ought to avoid contact with other humans?

The herbs and supplements have not ever caused these serious effects on their own.

Tell me there has never been an adverse reaction to herbal medications, never a death, never a bad outcome, and I’ll call you a liar and terribly deluded. I’ve seen more than one example of all three, personally, in actual human beings I’ve known, touched, and treated.

Nothing we do is perfect, perfectly safe, or perfectly free of the threat of human error. Human beings are by far the most frightening and flawed element in any equation where drugs, technology, machines, etc. come in. That goes for all humans, even the ones who feel they’re above such things.

[QUOTE=MassageLady;4946897]

This is funny…how many times do we hear warnings of ‘tested safe drugs’ being pulled off the market because of deaths? How many infants were needlessly deformed because of a ‘tested’ drug (thalidimide-sp?), so PLEASE spare me the ‘tested, safe’ jargon that you love to throw out there. The herbs and supplements have not ever caused these serious effects on their own.[/QUOTE]

Massage Lady,

The reason for this has to do with basic statistics, as follows:

As a general statement, severe reactions to drugs/herbals/nutriceuticals are rare events. Also, as a general statement, most if not all drugs/herbal/nutriceuticals have the potential to cause a severe reaction in the rare individual.

A standard pharmaceutical agent (i.e. drug) is tested and demonstrated to be safe on approximately a maximum of 2000 human volunteers for typically less than a year before it is submitted for Food and Drug Administration (FDA) approval to be available to the general population. To test it on more people and for a longer period of time prior to release to the general population is simply prohibitively expensive and would severely limit useful drugs from becoming available. Once a drug is released on the market, all licensed health care providers are required to report to the FDA any adverse reactions. If the adverse reactions reported to the FDA are severe enough/ frequent enough, the drug will be pulled from the market. A drug will get pulled from the market if the reported rate of severe reaction is as low as 1 in 200,000 (even as low as 1:500,000). So while the testing the drug on the limited number of individuals (i.e. 2000) prior to FDA approval demonstrated that the drug appeared to be safe, when the drug is released for use to the general population (i.e. on 100,000’s of individuals), the rare individual that will have a severe reaction to will become apparent. Basic statistics.

An important component of this is the FDA requirement that any adverse reaction be reported. It is only through the central gathering of this adverse reaction data that the overall safety of a drug when used on large numbers of people (i.e. millions) can be determined. Specifically, it is only through this kind of thorough and complete data collection that the rare individual with an adverse reaction can be detected.

At this time, the herbal / nutraceutical industry is not required to report their adverse reactions. Accordingly, it is not possible to hold herbal / nutraceutical agents to the same degree of statistical analysis when it comes to any possible adverse reactions. So when I am told that a herbal / nutraceutical is considered safe because “it has been used for hundreds of years on millions of people”, I always ask to see the mechanism for reporting rare adverse events analogous to that required of pharmaceutical agents. So until such data is gathered an analyzed, a fact-based statement regarding the safety (one way or the other) of these agenst when applied over large populations cannot be made.

It is only through statistical analysis on thorough and complete adverse event reported data on large populations that any fact-based statement can be made on any agent - whether it be a pharmaceutical drug, herbal product, or nutriceutical - regarding that agent’s safety.

None of the above is pro-pharmaceutical, anti-herbal or vis versa. It is simple data collection and statistics.

As for my frame of reference, I am an M.D. and my area is liver disease including severe liver disease resulting in liver transplantation. I have seen patients with fulminant hepatic failure due to a pharmaceutical agents and others with fulminant hepatic failure due to herbal agents. The difference is the ones due to the pharmaceutical agent by law have to be reported to the FDA, likely resulting in the drug being pulled from the market. With the fulminant hepatic failure due to the herbal agent, no such reporting (with the possibility of the product being pulled from the market) is required.

OK … well, here in the good ole USA citizens have the RIGHT to choose their own, individual methods of health and well-being treatments. For the time being anyway … one of the benefits of living in a free society. We still live in a ‘buyer beware’ society. And so it should be, IMHO.

To test it on more people and for a longer period of time prior to release to the general population is simply prohibitively expensive and would severely limit useful drugs from becoming available
Wow, so its OK to put out a drug that has limited testing and will not be further tested because its too expensive BUT … human lives are expendable? Quality of life for human beings is expendable? Not worth the extra $$ to test the safety of the new pharmas before its released for use with humans? Just Wow.

Another big Wow I just found … http://www.nationalaglawcenter.org/assets/crs/RS21418.pdf

GE crops for pharmaceuticals - “pharming”. Now isn’t that just ducky. And Monsanto just recently released their own studies on GE corn and rats – showing liver and kidney failure as well as sterilization as a result of eating genetically modified corn. Yet, its ‘completely safe’ for humans to consume and, in FACT, is not required to be listed as an ingredient in anything consumable. And this is supposed to ‘instill trust’ in the medical, pharmaceutical, governmental “authorities”?

Well, this is a whole 'nother topic of discussion although I imagine it would be more of a full blow out than a civil ‘discussion’ and not for an Equine forum.

Those of you who ‘believe’ that Science can do no wrong, well, that’s your choice. Those who ‘believe’ that only herbals, homeopathy and other alternative or complementary medicines are the way to go – well, that’s your choice as well. There are also those who choose to combine methods of healing and that is the individual’s right just as much. If I, or anyone else, CHOOSES to use homeopathics or toothpaste for ‘treatment’ then that’s MY and his or her right to do so here in America. We, as yet, do not live under a socialistic or communistic government.

Heck, we even have the RIGHT to even discuss this on a public forum! :wink:

Science does NOT have all the answers – far from it. None of us do. And never will.

Live and let live.

[QUOTE=caballus;4947126]
OK … well, here in the good ole USA citizens have the RIGHT to choose their own, individual methods of health and well-being treatments. For the time being anyway … one of the benefits of living in a free society. We still live in a ‘buyer beware’ society. And so it should be, IMHO. [/QUOTE]

Hang on a minute… You think buyer beware and do what you want is fine and clearly you do that when it comes to what you do but yet you say this with all the feigned shock and horror that you could possibly muster with your obsessions of conspiracy by the pharmaceutical and medical profession…

Wow, so its OK to put out a drug that has limited testing and will not be further tested because its too expensive BUT … human lives are expendable? Quality of life for human beings is expendable? Not worth the extra $$ to test the safety of the new pharmas before its released for use with humans? Just Wow.

However once again you’re twisting what was said in detail and forming a conclusion that is once again a false one and a total and absolute misrepresentation.

Pharmaceuticals have been very well tested for clinical efficiency and contraindication. Unbelievable that you just don’t get it!

Especially when one considers and compares to some of the tripe you suggest should be taken and slapped on because YOU ‘think’ you ‘know’ it has medicinal properties (even though you don’t know the ingredients nor the quantities, nor what they do!)

Have you EVER considered that medical practicioners and pharmaceutical companys are actually trying to improve medical health, cure disease, extend life and it’s quality?

If it were up to you then polio would never have been eradicated and half the population would still be hobbling about in calipers!

Another big Wow I just found … http://www.nationalaglawcenter.org/assets/crs/RS21418.pdf

I seriously think you’d be a heck of a lot better off it you removed the search engine facility from your PC. The way you use the information you get is akin to sticking a pin in any old book you happen to find and believing what it says there and there only - and then finding out that it was Alice in Wonderland and there was no magic potion after all!

There are also those who choose to combine methods of healing and that is the individual’s right just as much. If I, or anyone else, CHOOSES to use homeopathics or toothpaste for ‘treatment’ then that’s MY and his or her right to do so here in America. We, as yet, do not live under a socialistic or communistic government.

For goodness sakes stop being such a drama queen! You don’t honestly believe that the right to believe in junk science and Phineas T Barnum only exists in America do you? Trust me you can be stupid and choose toothpaste for treatment wherever the heck you live!

Heck, we even have the RIGHT to even discuss this on a public forum! :wink:
Well for someone who thinks that, you’ve done a heck of a lot of discussion!

Science does NOT have all the answers – far from it. None of us do. And never will.

Live and let live.

I’ll tell you straight that it’s a lot more than the bleeding lotions and potions you rant and rave on about!

[QUOTE=caballus;4947126]
Wow, so its OK to put out a drug that has limited testing and will not be further tested because its too expensive BUT … human lives are expendable? Quality of life for human beings is expendable? Not worth the extra $$ to test the safety of the new pharmas before its released for use with humans? Just Wow. [/QUOTE]
What’s even more “WOW” is herbals and homeopathics don’t require any testing at all yet are automatically assumed to be safe and effective by those who “believe”. Wonder how many mares aborted before someone realized Devil’s Claw ain’t that safe?

Homeopathic remedies are regulated by the FDA:
http://www.fda.gov/RegulatoryInformation/Legislation/FederalFoodDrugandCosmeticActFDCAct/FDCActChaptersIandIIShortTitleandDefinitions/ucm086297.htm

Herbs presently are not.

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing…

Wow.

Caballus, I have no history with you, so perhaps you will actually read AND take to heart what I am about to say to you.

It is very clear from your posts that you are not stupid. However, you are very, very ignorant: ignorant of biology, of the scientific method/ process, and of the meaning and use of biostatistics in life sciences and research. As a result, you seem to think you can pick and choose amongst whatever “results” or explanations suit your pre-conceived notions - ironically you accuse others of being closed-minded, when it is actually you who will not hear facts that conflictswith your views.

Ignorance is, fortunately, not a permanent state of affairs.

It would greatly behoove you to read, thoroughly and comprehensively, on the scientific method. Wiki even has a rather good entry on it. I am sure that if you have questions or are confused about how certain aspects apply to the topics at hand, that people would be able to explain it to you. I think if you understood better how science worked, you might understand better why homeopathy and herbalism are generally considered un-scientific and therefore more akin to faith healing than medicine.

Best,
a clinical researcher whose primary care physician (MD, MPH) is also an alternative and complementary modalities practitioner (NP)

I think this might be my favorite statement in this whole thread. :lol:

Here’s the thing I don’t get - okay, so say there are problems with the drug approval process in this country. (The US.) I actually do think there are, and it’s something that needs to be assessed.[1] But how exactly does it follow on from there that the answer must be “Pharma companies are EVIL, herbal products where you have no idea what the quantities are in any given dose are MUCH BETTER!”?

I mean, for goodness sake, just look at the variation you can get (which is testable in a lab, no less) in the sugar and nutrient level of GRASS depending on the growing conditions. Given that, how on earth are you supposed to figure out the correct dosage of any herbal concoction that’s going to actually DO something for you, when this week’s batch can be much different in chemical content than last week’s?

And that’s not even taking into consideration the vast possibilities for interaction between different things you might be taking, which are sometimes very poorly understood and yet can be extremely hard on your internal organs like your liver and kidneys. (I seem to recall something a while ago when I lived in the UK about St. John’s Wort causing all sorts of trouble because people were taking it thinking it was herbal so it must be safe, and herbalists were prescribing it in place of anti-depressant medications, and then it was interacting with something or another and causing major health issues.)

I mean, I do use some “herbal” products - I drink mint tea when my stomach is a bit upset, and I take colloidal oatmeal baths with a bit of chamomile and lavender added when my skin is particularly grumpy, because it’s soothing - but for anything major, I still go to the doctor and get proper medication that has quality control standards in place in the manufacturing process, because I don’t really want to be messing about with, for example, my blood pressure.

[1] - My personal pet peeve is how much ‘wooing’ of doctors there seems to be to get them to start prescribing only the latest and greatest things. I was on a medication in the UK for my arthritis, and it was working very well, and had tolerable side effects for me, and wasn’t doing anything awful to my internal organs, but it was an older medication. I come back to the US and try to find a doctor to keep me on it, and all I get are sales pitches about the latest and greatest thing. Now, if the medication I was on WAS NOT WORKING for me, that’d be one thing. But it was. And it’s considerably cheaper than the latest and greatest, which is also an issue for me because my pharmacy coverage with my health insurance sucks. It should not take me 4-5 different doctors to find one who will just put me on what I want to be on when none of them could name any good reasons why I SHOULDN’T have been on that medication except that the newer thing MIGHT have been better. (Leaving out, of course, that the newer thing has a whole slew of side effects also, and there’s no way to tell which of those I might experience.)

[QUOTE=caballus;4947436]
Homeopathic remedies are regulated by the FDA:
http://www.fda.gov/RegulatoryInformation/Legislation/FederalFoodDrugandCosmeticActFDCAct/FDCActChaptersIandIIShortTitleandDefinitions/ucm086297.htm

Herbs presently are not.[/QUOTE]

I don’t understand why you insist on posting references you don’t seem to understand. The link you posted is to a list of definitions. And, yes, under the definition of “drug” it does list homeopathics recognized by the relevant official bodies. BUT, if you dig a little deeper you would realize:

Homeopathic remedies are regulated in the same manner as nonprescription, over-the-counter (OTC) drugs. However, because homeopathic products contain little or no active ingredients, they do not have to undergo the same safety and efficacy testing as prescription and new OTC drugs.

The U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) does require that homeopathic remedies meet certain legal standards for strength, purity, and packaging.

Taken directly from (bold/underline/italics added for emphasis):
http://nccam.nih.gov/health/homeopathy/

:rolleyes:

[QUOTE=baxtersmom;4947442]
Wow.[/QUOTE] I don’t expect anyone to wade through all the BS in this entire discussion so I will repeat … I believe in using a combination … allopathy has its place and so does herbal and so does homeopathy. I have not once stated that I use hom or herbals exclusively. Nor will I simply 'cause I don’t. I tend to like to keep the baby around when the bathwater is being thrown out.

I can’t gather quotes from posts, but what I saw was worrying in stating that any herbal company would suggest that you can take any amount without worry, ect. I use herbs but never in place of medical intervention. I have horses on some herbs again never as a replacement for real medicine. But the Chinese herbalist that I used is licensed and makes up his own remedies with very specific instructions for use. There is no mention of using them willy nilly and all aspects of your medical condition and medicines are taken into account. And he also never ever suggests it’s a replacement for real doctors and vets. As a matter of fact the only way you will get herbs from him is through a doctor or vet reference. Not done willy nilly and sold to anyone. Not saying he’s a be all end all of the herbal world but he certainly doesn’t treat anything he does as a substitute for real medicine. I gather that’s why it’s called complimentary therapy, as in compliments medicines which have been tried and tested with medical science to back up results.

So yeah, I know what you’re thinking, why bother. Well I guess I’m that way inclined and I have had some excellent results with certain things which I will spare you the details of, but I never ever replace medical and veterinary degrees with voodoo. And by the way certain herbs can react badly with medicines and with certain people so they are not nor ever will be 100% safe and if you take herbs you will know this. Making claims otherwise is hogwash.

Terri

—"It would greatly behoove you to read, thoroughly and comprehensively, on the scientific method. Wiki even has a rather good entry on it. I am sure that if you have questions or are confused about how certain aspects apply to the topics at hand, that people would be able to explain it to you. I think if you understood better how science worked, you might understand better why homeopathy and herbalism are generally considered un-scientific and therefore more akin to faith healing than medicine. "—

I think we have here a case of beliefs that are antagonistic to learning even the most basic of science, because science will debunk so many of them.:wink:

[QUOTE=caballus;4947481]
I don’t expect anyone to wade through all the BS in this entire discussion so I will repeat … I believe in using a combination … allopathy has its place and so does herbal and so does homeopathy. I have not once stated that I use hom or herbals exclusively. Nor will I simply 'cause I don’t. I tend to like to keep the baby around when the bathwater is being thrown out.[/QUOTE]

Well, you did say you don’t vaccinate.
If that is not throwing the baby out with the bathwater, I don’t know what is.:confused:

So, you assumed that because I don’t vaccinate that it means I’m against allopathic medicine? Interesting.

Hate to burst your bubble folks - but the scaroids you have had disappear with toothpaste - may simply have run their course.

Boarders horse with a sarcoid above her eye. Due to location the vet was loath to try anything that could run or drip into the eye.

After five years - it is going away. No toothpaste or herbs.