CREST Toothpaste for Sarcoids?

[Auventera_Two]

Interesting thread. I trim a mare with a very large, pretty severe sarcoid that breaks open and bleeds ocassionally. The owner most often cannot ride due to the location of the sarcoid. I believe she’s tried just about every kind of medical and holistic type remedy and nothing has worked.

As for vaccines - I do think we over-vaccinate in many instances. Checking titers is a very effective way to learn what needs to be boosted and what does not.

When I got the old foundered mare, I was worried about vaccinating her and my vet said - well, at 16 years old, she’s been exposed to everything there is so I don’t see any need to vaccinate her for anything. I ended up doing a tetanus anyway.

I do think it’s important to vaccinate foals, just as we vaccinate human babies. But to continue vaccianting every year or every 6 months for the same things over and over for years and decades seems like overkill to me.

My dogs get rabies vaccines every 3 years because it is required for their dog licenses.

The horses who are hauled around a lot and are constantly in contact with strange horses, drinking from communal water sources, etc. are vaccinated more rigorously than those who stay home.

I’m not a “holistic” or “natural” type person by any means. But I also don’t trust blindly in Big Brother Pharma to keep me safe with all their scientific research. I was on Vioxx for pain for about a year and then it was pulled from the market for the cardiac consequences it presented to patients. So that was a case of trusting the pharmaceutical companies to thoroughly research and test a drug before making it publically avaialble and in the end, I was at risk for using the drug.

Unintended side effects can arise through the use of allopathic OR homeopathic remedies, or herbs, or ordinary foods for that matter. Each consumer needs to make informed choices and decisions based on their own research and comfort level. I use a combination of herbal/natural remedies, and traditional medicine as applicable.

[rcloisonne]

@Auventera Two;4947624

As for vaccines - I do think we over-vaccinate in many instances.

Agreed.

Checking titers is a very effective way to learn what needs to be boosted and what does not.

And just what are protective titers for the various equine diseases we vacinate for? The problem is, nobody knows. Nevermind the huge expense of titers (my vets charge > $150 for a Lyme ELISA + farm call).

If you and Cab are running titers for rabies, EEE, WNV, and tetanus, please share what the protective ranges are with the rest of us.

[deltawave]

I’d also like to know what “very effective” means when it comes to titers for vaccinations for a dozen different diseases, none of which (as far as I’m aware) have any good standards in terms of a proper titer response.

It would be great to know, but unless there is something new and compelling out there I don’t believe there are ANY standards by which we can say that a titer of this or that level is a reliable indicator of vigorous, reliable immunity.

[Bluey]

We have conducted clinical trials for vaccines for companies that make them.
Titers only measure that there was a response to the vaccine and how strong, but not how well that vaccine may protect.

You can have high titer numbers, but if you are exposed, still come down just as easily as someone that was never vaccinated.

We need to look at other parts of the immune responses to vaccines than high titers, to call an organism protected.
Sure would be nice if it was that easy as just reading titer numbers, but study after study shows a very poor correlation with titers and real immunity when challenged.:no:

[baxtersmom]

[QUOTE=caballus;4947481]
I don’t expect anyone to wade through all the BS in this entire discussion so I will repeat … I believe in using a combination … allopathy has its place and so does herbal and so does homeopathy. I have not once stated that I use hom or herbals exclusively. Nor will I simply 'cause I don’t. I tend to like to keep the baby around when the bathwater is being thrown out.[/QUOTE]

I have read this discussion. Did you you read my post?

You don’t understand science. You should.

[MistyBlue]

Addendum to Baxtersmom:
Science does not = allopathic medicine.
Science is also used for pretty much everything else. :yes:
And understanding of science and how it works helps us make educated decisions on just about anything as opposed to decisions based on anecdotes. It is far more accurate a method and only helps in any category.

[deltawave]

Baxtersmom, we’ve been trying to get caballus to take a 100-level science course for ages. Or to open a textbook. Or something. She displays no interest, and an uncanny knack for overlooking things that do not jive with her worldview. What blows my mind is that she gives classes on horse care. And her signature line used to be “caveat emptor”, which was just so . . . ironical. I hope the emptors who are her clients have lots of caveats.

[Whistlejacket]

For those interested in making decisions based on scientific studies regarding the human use of herbal products/nutriceuticals, etc. a good website is the one recommended by Bright and Clear (post #194)

http://nccam.nih.gov/health/

A bit of historical context…In response to the burgeoning interest in alternative medicines, in 1992 the Office of Alternative Medicine was established as a branch of the National Institutes of Health (NIH). In 1998 this office was expanded to become that National Center of Complementary and Alternative Medicine (NCCAM) (website link given above). The NCCAM was assigned the charge of standardizing the alternative medicine industry, developing research programs that integrate proven alternative medicine modalities into conventional medical care, and providing the public with a reliable assessment of the safety and efficacy of alternative therapies.

Because alternative medicines (including herbal products/nutriceutical) are not legally held to the same standard of regulation as pharmaceutical agents, the NCCAM can only go so far in “standardizing” the alternative medicine industry and assessing the safety and efficacy of these various therapies and products. However, as can be found on the website, it is a central repository for information regarding peer-reviewed, controlled scientific studies on these therapeutic modalities, on-going clinical trials of alternative therapies, as well as at least some measure of the available information regarding the safety of these products.

As Aventura Two said (post #201), all products (pharmaceutical, herbals, etc.) are associated with some risk in the rare susceptible individual, and it is important to make informed decisions. The website referenced above provides information to help to make those informed decisions - if of course, you like to make such decisions based on scientific studies. If you, however, prefer to make such decisions based on factors other than scientific studies, I am sure that a multitude of websites abound.

[caballus]

Whistlejacket – thanks for posting that site. Of course, I’ve even posted from PubMed (from which Deltawave finds info herself) and the material was not accepted here since it wasn’t from a ‘text’ or printed material. At any rate … that’s all I’ll say on that.

As for the rest of the story I have one point to bring up and that is we’ve all neglected to consider those who live in areas where veterinary or medical help is, literally, days away. I’ve been fortunate of being able to help a good number of animals in situations as this. When medicine and veterinary/medical help is not nearby then homeopathy and herbs can, and do, fill in the gap many times during the wait.

Now whether or not you all care to ‘believe’ this or consider it valid or worthy or whatever is of no consequence to me. You may think what you’d like. I know and that’s all that I need.

I have one more thing to say concerning something that Thomas said about my being and posting anonymously. Obviously, if any of you have cared to or taken the effort to find out who I am, if you didn’t know, you know that I am far from an anonymous poster. I post with my given name; I have links that have any contact info by phone, address, email etc., my info is in my profile that is public. My birthdate is even listed so you know that I’m not a spring chicken. All it takes is a couple of keystrokes. Simple. I’ve also been on this board since 2003. So I’m not a stranger around here.

If you have something else to say directly to me then my email is also listed. Feel free. I will choose whether or not to respond or trash any correspondence.

[deltawave]

Everything that’s on PubMed is in print, somewhere. Where do you live that medical help is DAYS AWAY? And you practice human medicine, too, then? How interesting.

[MistyBlue]

As for the rest of the story I have one point to bring up and that is we’ve all neglected to consider those who live in areas where veterinary or medical help is, literally, days away. I’ve been fortunate of being able to help a good number of animals in situations as this. When medicine and veterinary/medical help is not nearby then homeopathy and herbs can, and do, fill in the gap many times during the wait.

Cab, you live in MA. There isn’t a spot in MA that’s more than an hour from a Starbucks, forget medical or vet help.

And you lived in FL too…also nowhere there that’s days from vet or med help.

There aren’t many spots in the country that’s DAYS away from anything. Unless the person is on foot only in some parts of national parks or Alaska.

Unless of course you’re giving medical advice out over the internet. Which I think we can all agree is absolutely insane. Without seeing the horse or person personally, there’s no way to tell if the prson giving you the info is being 100% honest or missing something.
Well, most of us will agree to that I guess. After all you did pay for and seek advice from a woman who was curing your horse via phone, internet and by messenger spirits.

Now whether or not you all care to ‘believe’ this or consider it valid or worthy or whatever is of no consequence to me. You may think what you’d like. I know and that’s all that I need.

The scary thing is you’ve proven over and over that you don’t know, but you assume. Or intuit. Or channel. Whatever. You pick and choose what you want to know based on your already formed in concrete guesses on what you want to be true. And yes, it’s been proven over the years in many many threads. You state things as facts and then it’s proven they’re not even close to facts. Or you only have a small part correct and the rest very wrong. And you often pass along stories as “truthful proven” anecdotes when they’re anything but that.

When your grey mare had issues, you stated over and over you and the vets had done everything about her definite case of Cushings. yet you never tried the most common allopathic prescription and went with leaves instead. And never had her actually tested. But you still pounded that pulpit with your facts and stories of absolutes on a never diagnosed, never seriously treated horse that was on a pretty bad diet. And waxed poetic about the miracle cure of unknown mixture of herbs and mind-bending spirit waves sent through internet photos that made your horse glow as proof.
And what’s happened since then? You’ve had a falling out with the spirit 911 person and have highjacked the one part of her bag of tricks that she couldn’t sue you about and have been touting them as your own idea with the miracle salads.
Which btw you’ve never quite grasped either the facts (actual scientific facts and not anecdotes) that plant enzymes don’t do squat inside anything but the actual plant it came from. yet you continue to pass that forth as another of your brain-child miracle cures. Probably in your new book too, huh? :winkgrin: Scientifically and factually impossible, but you’ll try to make a buck off of it. :no: Because as long as you believe it, it must be right.

Is that why the “caveat emptor” was removed from your sig line? The new book coming up for sale? :eek:

[kdow]

[QUOTE=caballus;4948203]
Whistlejacket – thanks for posting that site. Of course, I’ve even posted from PubMed (from which Deltawave finds info herself) and the material was not accepted here since it wasn’t from a ‘text’ or printed material. At any rate … that’s all I’ll say on that.[/QUOTE]

Perhaps part of the issue is that, as far as I can tell, you think that copy and pasting text from some place is adequate ‘proof’ that the reference exists, and you don’t generally provide a citation in any type of proper format or a url, which would allow someone to go and look up the source of your quote themselves and decide if they agree with your interpretation of the quoted material?

[deltawave]

Oh, I want a book!! I want a book!!

<p>

I’ll trade you, Gwen, for the text of your choice on anatomy, physiology, anything you like. Since you teach these things in your classes, surely a book would come in handy?

[Thomas_1]

[QUOTE=caballus;4948203]
Whistlejacket – thanks for posting that site. Of course, I’ve even posted from PubMed (from which Deltawave finds info herself) and the material was not accepted here since it wasn’t from a ‘text’ or printed material. At any rate … that’s all I’ll say on that. [/QUOTE] You demonstrate to continue to fail to understand why readers take exception with your ‘interpretation’ and VERY selective quoting. That’s all I’ll say on that!

As for the rest of the story I have one point to bring up and that is we’ve all neglected to consider those who live in areas where veterinary or medical help is, literally, days away.

I’ll rely on MistyBlue’s comments re USA Geography and location of vets etc.

Now though I’m VERY curious:

I’d never before got the impression that you were days away from the vet??? How on earth do you manage.

I’m also VERY curious about how many people you live close to that are horse owners but yet they live days from a vet.

Then I wonder why if there’s this little horse community days from a vet that are totally reliant on you for veterinary advice then why on earth hasn’t a vet seen that as a business opportunity. (rhetorical question that and not for you to answer!)

But I would like to say that I was pretty sure you did live in America and not a third world country such as India or even Haiti. Last I knew there was no such thing as poor peasant farmers trying to scratch a living by flogging their guts out working in rural America and who were totally dependent on their horse for transport and haulage and food and with no phones and no vets.

If so then I’d absolutely understand and empathise with the desperate struggle to maintain the poor beast.

FACT: Horses in the USA are in the main luxury lifestyle choices and used for leisure and pleasure.

Location of the likes of vets is something that needs to be ascertained BEFORE you get a horse.

Picture this “Heck the horse has just had a major accident and has an arterial bleed. Let’s ring the lady who isn’t a vet and who doesn’t understand science or even what’s in things and see what that toothpaste is called”

I’ve been fortunate of being able to help a good number of animals in situations as this. When medicine and veterinary/medical help is not nearby then homeopathy and herbs can, and do, fill in the gap many times during the wait.
Ah so you are giving veterinary advice! THAT’S SCAREY!!!

It’s concerned me for some time that ever since the number of horse owners out stripped the number of horsemen/women, the knowledge level, let alone the skills level has been in a constant and often precipitous, decline. The fact that you’re suggesting that these owners rely on you for advice on veterinary treatment is gravely concerning for the welfare of any horse in such ownership!

Now whether or not you all care to ‘believe’ this or consider it valid or worthy or whatever is of no consequence to me. You may think what you’d like. I know and that’s all that I need.
Oh I do actually believe that you are giving advice to owners way out of your remit and knowledge base. That’s the concerning thing and the reason why I even bother to correct and admonish you when you get it so VERY VERY wrong.

It’s clear as the nose on my face that you’re giving what is advice on treatment and whenever you’re open challenged you deny that’s what you’re doing and you assert strongly that you WOULD NEVER give such advice.

But now we have a very very clear admission!

I have one more thing to say concerning something that Thomas said about my being and posting anonymously. Obviously, if any of you have cared to or taken the effort to find out who I am, if you didn’t know, you know that I am far from an anonymous poster. I post with my given name; I have links that have any contact info by phone, address, email etc., my info is in my profile that is public. My birthdate is even listed so you know that I’m not a spring chicken. All it takes is a couple of keystrokes. Simple. I’ve also been on this board since 2003. So I’m not a stranger around here.
I’m very sorry Mrs Caballus. Once again though you failed to understand. Note: my comment was made in the context of your threat regarding libel.

You’ve said over and over and over again that you don’t recommend toothpaste or other stuff and you don’t give veterinary advice to owners and you don’t sell things like that. You’ve stressed you don’t do that and that you’re just expressing your personal views and opinions about herbal treatments, not needing vaccination, homeopathy, auras and whatever the heck else.

You post here as Caballus and express personal views and aren’t selling things. You well know that the forums aren’t allowed to advertise and you well know how forums work and the risk you take in expressing your views and letting folks decide what they think about your level of horsemanship and knowledge. The way forums work is that when personal views are full of errors and false assumptions you’ll get told that. Repeatedly and often and by a range of other members. You get people telling you that they’re concerned/astounded/surprised/find it interesting (*delete as appropriate) that you give advice and sell advice on horse care or veterinary treatment when evidentially you know so little.

You deny you do that. So it’s all fine and well in your backwater with the vet 2 days or more away!

That isn’t libel and it was in that context that I said what I did. As I said before though if you think it is then bring it on!

If you have something else to say directly to me then my email is also listed. Feel free. I will choose whether or not to respond or trash any correspondence.
Thanks for the offer. I find that the forums work for me.

[I]"Knowledge works for anybody and is quantifiable; opinion requires belief and works only for the faithful.

The inability to separate knowledge from opinion is the hallmark of True Believers and other ignoranti."[/I]

[MassageLady]

I haven’t been here in days, and I must say, the level of snarkiness in this thread is thru the roof. Just because it’s not ‘scientifically proven’ and up to YOUR standards-doesn’t mean it’s not worth anything. NOR does it mean it’s safe to use!! How many of your ‘safe, tested drugs’ have been pulled off the market because they’re suddenly not safe? How many of YOUR drugs ACTUALLY CURE THE PROBLEM?? I must say, few if any. How many years have your scientists been looking for a cure for cancer?? When if they would just get their heads out of their orifice and TRY something else (yes, herbs)they might actually FIND the cure!
For decades, scientists have been doing chemo/radiation to ‘cure’ cancer, and it rarely does-isn’t this the definition of INSANITY??? Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results??
And now the allopathic world has FINALLY decided that-wow-chiro/massage therapy ACTUALLY help…well DUH we’ve all known that for yearS!!!
Many ‘vets’ have come over to the natural side and have realized that chiro/massage/acupuncture can CURE a horse far faster than any shot will.

So PLEASE people…in the future, allow those with other ideas other than your’s say something here without the fear of you intimidating and just being PLAIN MEAN, which is what you ALL ARE! Perhaps, you are having a bad day—some St. John’s Wort will do you some good

So go ahead and flame me, it’s ok, can’t respond for a few days anyway, it’s blocked at work.

[CatOnLap]

[QUOTE=MassageLady;4952872]
I haven’t been here in days, and I must say, the level of snarkiness in this thread is thru the roof. Just because it’s not ‘scientifically proven’ and up to YOUR standards-doesn’t mean it’s not worth anything. NOR does it mean it’s safe to use!! How many of your ‘safe, tested drugs’ have been pulled off the market because they’re suddenly not safe? How many of YOUR drugs ACTUALLY CURE THE PROBLEM?? I must say, few if any. How many years have your scientists been looking for a cure for cancer?? When if they would just get their heads out of their orifice and TRY something else (yes, herbs)they might actually FIND the cure!
For decades, scientists have been doing chemo/radiation to ‘cure’ cancer, and it rarely does-isn’t this the definition of INSANITY??? Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results??
And now the allopathic world has FINALLY decided that-wow-chiro/massage therapy ACTUALLY help…well DUH we’ve all known that for yearS!!!
Many ‘vets’ have come over to the natural side and have realized that chiro/massage/acupuncture can CURE a horse far faster than any shot will.

So PLEASE people…in the future, allow those with other ideas other than your’s say something here without the fear of you intimidating and just being PLAIN MEAN, which is what you ALL ARE! Perhaps, you are having a bad day—some St. John’s Wort will do you some good

So go ahead and flame me, it’s ok, can’t respond for a few days anyway, it’s blocked at work.[/QUOTE]

Seriously? Have you taken too many of your own st john’s wort capsules?

It would appear that all the coffcoffsnakeoilsaelsmen alternative practitioners have failed to cure cancer and in fact, fail at an alarmingly greater rate than standard scientific medicine. Since I have been in practice, through scientific oncology, we have gone from having 80% fatality rates for most common cancers like bowel and breast, to 80-90% cure rates.

I would point out that your prescription for St. John’s Wort to people you have never met and whose diagnosis you make illegally, is dangerous and could possibly have fatal consequences! I have treated several cases of psychosis induced by St. John’s Wort as prescribed by quacks like you.

Since you seem so against snark, I must take you seriously and assume you are AGAIN PRACTICING MEDICINE WITHOUT A LICENCE and report your post, which is a shame, since this is such an entertaining thread and it will likely get cleaned up shortly.

[MistyBlue]

Just because it’s not ‘scientifically proven’ and up to YOUR standards-doesn’t mean it’s not worth anything. NOR does it mean it’s safe to use!!

Well I have no idea why you’ve gotten so frothy in your post…you happen to agree with the rest of us who passed science in school. :yes:
And may I say hallelujah? :winkgrin:

So go ahead and flame me, it’s ok, can’t respond for a few days anyway, it’s blocked at work.

I repeat…hallelujah.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=MassageLady;4952872]
I haven’t been here in days, and I must say, the level of snarkiness in this thread is thru the roof. Just because it’s not ‘scientifically proven’ and up to YOUR standards-doesn’t mean it’s not worth anything. NOR does it mean it’s safe to use!! How many of your ‘safe, tested drugs’ have been pulled off the market because they’re suddenly not safe? How many of YOUR drugs ACTUALLY CURE THE PROBLEM?? I must say, few if any. How many years have your scientists been looking for a cure for cancer?? When if they would just get their heads out of their orifice and TRY something else (yes, herbs)they might actually FIND the cure!
For decades, scientists have been doing chemo/radiation to ‘cure’ cancer, and it rarely does-isn’t this the definition of INSANITY??? Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results??

Say what?
Cancer cures are thru the roof today. Guess you had not noticed?

And now the allopathic world has FINALLY decided that-wow-chiro/massage therapy ACTUALLY help…well DUH we’ve all known that for yearS!!!
Many ‘vets’ have come over to the natural side and have realized that chiro/massage/acupuncture can CURE a horse far faster than any shot will.

Any proof of that?
I think that is just hearsay on both counts, that "so many vets are now following any one “natural” whatever, or that alternative whatever may cure anything faster than “a shot”.:yes:

So PLEASE people…in the future, allow those with other ideas other than your’s say something here without the fear of you intimidating and just being PLAIN MEAN, which is what you ALL ARE! Perhaps, you are having a bad day—some St. John’s Wort will do you some good

No one should recommend anything, medicines or herbs, without the right clinical picture in mind.:eek:

So go ahead and flame me, it’s ok, can’t respond for a few days anyway, it’s blocked at work.[/QUOTE]

You post all that and then complain that OTHERS are snarky?

[Thomas_1]

Well MassageLady you certainly got your panties in a knot and excuse me while I snigger at your tirade on those who are snarky.

Hypocrisy: criticism and bias with a halo. :yes:

[QUOTE=MassageLady;4952872]
How many of YOUR drugs ACTUALLY CURE THE PROBLEM?? I must say, few if any. How many years have your scientists been looking for a cure for cancer?? [/QUOTE] I feel I’m pretty well qualified to answer this one having suffered for a rare and ordinarily fatal form of leukaemia. I am actually the world’s longest survivor having had a series of leading edge experimental treatments and including drugs undergoing clinical trial and which are now considered to be leading the way for cancer treatment. So I’ve had a right cocktail of them there dreadful drugs and even total body irradiation and a matched unrelated bone marrow transplant and you know what… I’m alive!

When if they would just get their heads out of their orifice and TRY something else (yes, herbs)they might actually FIND the cure!
Well away you go then. Get your head out of your backside and go find your cure saying as it’s that easy!

For decades, scientists have been doing chemo/radiation to ‘cure’ cancer, and it rarely does-isn’t this the definition of INSANITY??? Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results??
Erm no it’s not insanity and if you can get your head from up your arse for a minute you’ll find that these treatments do work.

HELLO… I’m alive!

So PLEASE people…in the future, allow those with other ideas other than your’s say something here without the fear of you intimidating and just being PLAIN MEAN, which is what you ALL ARE!
Yeh right and you’re a thoroughly nice person apart from your little rant!

Perhaps, you are having a bad day—some St. John’s Wort will do you some good
Thanks, but no thanks!

So go ahead and flame me, it’s ok, can’t respond for a few days anyway, it’s blocked at work.
Well I think you’re a prat and pretty ill informed to boot.

Will that do?

[deltawave]

Thomas, you almost make me want to piss you off just so you’ll tear me a new one in your inimitable style.

I think I could count a hundred or more cancer survivors that I know without even thinking too hard. Drives me nuts when people talk about “finding A CURE for cancer”. There are DOZENS of cancers that are curable, and as many or more drugs/treatments that do the job. The war isn’t over and entirely too many are lost, but we’re a heck of a lot farther along than we used to be, and gaining.

Meanwhile, homeopathy has evolved about as much as phrenology, its coeval twin. :rolleyes: Wonder why phrenology has gone the way of the dodo, and yet modern-day dodos still believe in homeopathy?