Two jumps were removed, along with 500m of track including one hill that was expected to be influential in sorting out fit horses. The actual time itself doesn’t really have any impact on how the horses feel about it or what they learn. Though definitely does for the riders as penalties obviously impact their score, but a good rider accepts that and rides the horse they have and the course that is in front of them on this day. Which is what we mostly saw.
While some very experienced combinations didn’t finish, there were also a significant number of very inexperienced 4* riders and horses riding for some countries that don’t have strong histories of eventing. Many of these riders did take most of the alternate routes and make it around with a huge number of time penalties, but a fair few of them were eliminated due to run outs as well.
Its the world champs, its supposed to be the course that sorts the top riders from the rest. I thought the course was actually very well done in that it was run-outs and tired horses that resulted in most of the eliminations and retirements. Very few falls considering the footing and inexperience of alot of the combinations. And only a couple of “scary” falls, most of them were just riders popping off the front.
I did not sit on the edge of my seat gasping as I did watching Badminton earlier in the year.[/QUOTE]
Your points are all valid and well taken. But I still think that pushing horses that far to their limit isn’t the best. And WFP said that he’d never showjumped a horse after riding that tough of a course. He said this year’s Badminton, which I thought was carnage, was “a piece of cake” next to today’s course. I’ll take his view over anyone else’s. And if nothng else, it doesn’t do much for eventing in the eyes of the world
I’m absolutely not denying that the rubbish weather and ground ruined to an extent what should have been a great day of xc. But nor can we reasonably expect the course to be rebuild in a day or two to cater to the weather. The only options left are to remove distance and jumps which happened. Sure they could have added another 20 seconds or so to the time, but I actually think that would have made it worse as then riders would have been pushing hard to make time when in this instance, no one achieved it so while of course they kept moving along to try and minimise time penalties, I think there would have been some worse rides through the second half of the course if riders were trying to get round with no time penalties.
Predicting a few withdrawals or vet outs before showjumping. Fingers crossed as many teams as possible will be safe (especially Australia!). Would be bad if hardly any teams completed.
Tough course, but as an armchair critic anyway, I think that is good. It’s supposed to be a world championship so it can’t be a cake walk. I’m only aware of 1 injury to a horse (Belgium horse I think) but it’s apparently been x-rayed and nothing serious. Wild Lone was tragic, but seems like something that could have happened at any event or could have been an underlying problem that could have killed him after training or something, not necessarily related to the course as per press conference. It was a very exciting course, some big name riders out but not too bad that less experienced combinations couldn’t make it around too.
Opinion might be changed if a ton of horses don’t make it to showjumping but I think it is what a world championship should be.
EDITED TO ADD:
Did anyone see Tim Price when he was pulled up? Didn’t show him on FEI TV. Apparently he was pulled up a couple of fences from home, Wesko as apparently deemed to tired to continue. They showed Tim leading Wesko home and from what I remember he didn’t look so bad being led- I assumed Tim had fallen. Would be interesting to see or know how tired Wesko actually was or if it was an over reaction. You’d thing being (I believe) 2 fences from home you’d need a darn good reason to pull them up.
[QUOTE=vineyridge;7739448]
Eventing is an individual sport; what other horses and riders do is totally beyond the control of a rider. I’m not sure what competing against the best in the world week by week can do other than set benchmarks for individual achievement.
Are you suggesting that if you are able to watch AN and WFP go week by week, you’ll learn how to ride dressage or XC?
Or are you suggesting that the general level of US riders is lower than in Europe, so less “competitive” horses are able to do well?
If our XC courses are tough enough, a horse that gets around double clear ought to be able to do it anywhere.[/QUOTE]
I totally, completely, absolutely, emphatically disagree with you.
From Sinead’s blog:
“One of the coolest parts of this time is spending the time watching each other’s lessons. It’s a unique opportunity to watch some of the best in the world train day-in and day-out, and it’s something during “real life” that we simply don’t have the time to do. The farm is beautiful with stone walls, hedges and a moat. We have three arenas, a sand track and two barns.”
I don’t know about any of you but I’ve leaned most of what I know by watching others. And I’ve become better by surrounding myself with people that are better than me not by people that are my level or below. Generally, the only thing I learn from people at my level is what NOT to do. The commentator said it himself today that the Americans are Big Fish in a relatively small pond.
The US program has undergone major changes in recent years for the better. They know we need to progress and are doing everything they can to build a stronger team and build a stronger and larger pool of riders to select from. It will take take to see the full effects of the changes that have been made. Riders and horses are not made in 2 years time.
But definitely we need tougher courses and to stop chasing the “good” weather. Can any of our team honestly say that they have ridden a course this difficult or really tested themselves and their horses in this difficult of conditions?
I think our team this year was very strong and has nothing to be ashamed of. 1/3 of the starters didn’t make it around, they were in very good company, some of the very best. Our riders didn’t take any stupid risks, they looked out for their horses and came back to the barn ears up feet down ready to fight another day.
Excellent point, and I wish the US team would take more note of THIS.
I love watching the Brazilian team at WEG/Olympics. At most of them, they appear to be well coached, well organized, with clear, realistic goals. They have a very clear and appropriate game plan for the course for each pair that sets them up for SUCCESS = completion with a positive experience. Sometimes there is a chance to see on the video some real team support for each other, and celebration and happiness about their OWN goals without reference to mighty European nations. They are competing against themselves, not a lot of other weekly-4* riders (well not weekly but often).
THAT is what the US should be doing, IMO. So long as the resources in this country are what they are, Brazil is a more appropriate model than fantasizing we can be like GB or Germany.
At the Hong Kong Olympics, Brazil was the ONLY team to have all members complete. They deserve recognition for that!
Comparing the relative experience over the course of the 2 to 3 years leading up to these major venues, the US is NOT in the Top Tier. The US is NOT the natural competitor of the usual team suspects - Germany, GB, Aus. We ARE the junior varsity. AND THAT’S OK. That’s what we have in this country to bring forward and prepare riders and horses.
I revise my statement - instead of saying “I am not unhappy with their performance”, what I should have said is more straightforward, “I am HAPPY with the US performance”. I saw good riding and good decisions, I saw horses standing up to direct routes on a course that was rather above their level (in most cases), and I’m very proud of them for that.
YES
[runs screaming through the house because the wrong rider is on the screen]
This always seems to be the case. At Hong Kong the camera was glued to a HK rider cantering tamely around the alternate routes, while in the background I glimpsed a medal-contender zipping by …
I disagree with this POV. Eventing is an outdoor sport. Rain is part of it.
One of the major European 4*'s in the last 12 months was run at least part of the time in a hard, pouring rain. I was able to watch a few rides, and Zara Phillips was tearing around on High Kingdom and made the time without putting a foot wrong. (Don’t remember which event, though.)
The footing at events in this day and age is prepared to hold up during rain - although of course riders make what adjustments are wise. Eventing is NOT “ruined” by rain. Rain is part of eventing.
I think of it as being like the NFL. If the weather isn’t dangerous, we play. If hell freezes over, we play on the ice. (figuratively speaking - no we don’t ride on ice, but I did do a schooling event over fresh snow once )
As a very young rider, before I’d ever heard of eventing, my crew and I regularly rode in the rain (because it rained alot and we were unwilling to not ride for almost any reason). We were in a cowboy culture where rain is just something that happens, like sun. It is not that big of a deal. The horse goes differently and the rider has to make adjustments to their steering, path and expectations, but it’s easy to manage. IMO many Americans need to get over the fear of melting in the rain.
[QUOTE=vineyridge;7739448]…
Are you suggesting that if you are able to watch AN and WFP go week by week, you’ll learn how to ride dressage or XC?
[/QUOTE]
It’s about experience and practice, of course. Among Harry Meade’s comments about Wild Lone is that she had “already done 5 4*'s”, although she was not considered their top team horse by any means.
And the rider of a hypothetical developing European horse who has “done 5 4*'s” has done them with the horse, and had other horses at those events as well, and so has even more experience going around 4* courses.
So developing European horses do 4*'s on a regular basis - American-based horses do not. The experience level is not even comparable. The US team has RIDERS at WEG and the Olympics that haven’t done 5 4*'s! That is, haven’t met the ‘development’ not-yet-made level of the European standards, not to mention ‘top-tier team level’.
That’s ok with me. I just wish the team management and the supporting fans were more realistic. It would make it much more positive for the team riders and horses.
[QUOTE=teddygirl;7739634]
I really feel that eventing has to do a better job in situations like this where the footing is worse than expected on a course that is already maxed out in difficulty, distance and terrain. I know the two jumps were taken off the course but the time was also tightened up by a full minute. I just hate seeing one third of the horses not finish. I don’t think that is really a good test or that the horses learn anything or that it makes the sport look very good.[/QUOTE]
Someone predicated a theory about the time allowed:
It was the same for everyone, so, as Isaac Newton said, time is relative.
If the time allowed was increased so that a number of riders were inside or close to that time, more riders would have pressed their horses to make the time. However, with the time so incredibly tight, and knowing that they (and everyone else) had no hope of making the time allowed, riders were more likely to listen to their horses and only go as fast as their horses could go comfortably.
Although it is a “backwards theory”, it sounds psychologically feasible.
[QUOTE=teddygirl;7739634]
I really feel that eventing has to do a better job in situations like this where the footing is worse than expected on a course that is already maxed out in difficulty, distance and terrain. I know the two jumps were taken off the course but the time was also tightened up by a full minute. I just hate seeing one third of the horses not finish. I don’t think that is really a good test or that the horses learn anything or that it makes the sport look very good.[/QUOTE]
Why does it “not make the sport look very good”?
Eventing is not a horse show. Completion is the first goal. Not completing is part of the sport. Retiring at the right time is part of the sport. Competitors shouldn’t complete when it isn’t right at that time, at every level of the eventing.
Not understanding the sport is the problem with the perception. Maybe people think that all of the non-complete’s suffered some catastrophe? Not at all.
Had it not been WEG there would probably have been more retirements. Sometimes it’s the right experience to do part of the course, but not all of it.
[QUOTE=OverandOnward;7739807]
Why does it “not make the sport look very good”?
Eventing is not a horse show. Completion is the first goal. Not completing is part of the sport. Retiring at the right time is part of the sport. Competitors shouldn’t complete when it isn’t right at that time, at every level of the eventing.
Not understanding the sport is the problem with the perception. Maybe people think that all of the non-complete’s suffered some catastrophe? Not at all.
Had it not been WEG there would probably have been more retirements. Sometimes it’s the right experience to do part of the course, but not all of it. :)[/QUOTE]
Eventing has been under scrutiny for quite some time and we don’t need to give “those” people and more ammunition, valid or not, is what I think she is trying to say and what I also tried to say earlier in this thread. “Those” people don’t care about the reasons why, they take days and results like these and twist it to serve their purposes.
[QUOTE=NorCal10;7739818]
Eventing has been under scrutiny for quite some time and we don’t need to give “those” people and more ammunition, valid or not, is what I think she is trying to say and what I also tried to say earlier in this thread. “Those” people don’t care about the reasons why, they take days and results like these and twist it to serve their purposes.[/QUOTE]
It’s a fine line to tread though isn’t it trying to please everyone? Top level eventing isn’t supposed to be a walk in the park. Not everyone is supposed to get around clear with no problems- then it will be a dressage competition and I firmly believe the most important phase should be cross country. Welfare is very important, and I think the new jumps and safety measures being implemented and great. I’m sure more compromises, like the end of the long format are going to happen. But it would be a shame to see the sport turn into something where people only win by getting on expensive, warmbloody dressage horses and always win over great cross country horses and riders who can’t make it up because the cross country is too easy.
High level international eventing should be the domain of bold, fast and clever horses and riders, where challenges are tough but fair and you have to be fit and ready. In my opinion it is already going away from that a bit and I would hate to see the end of proper four stars to appease naysayers.
[QUOTE=NorCal10;7739818]
Eventing has been under scrutiny for quite some time and we don’t need to give “those” people and more ammunition, valid or not, is what I think she is trying to say and what I also tried to say earlier in this thread. “Those” people don’t care about the reasons why, they take days and results like these and twist it to serve their purposes.[/QUOTE]
I think this is a very valid point. If anyone here really thinks that there are not people out there who would like to put it into eventing they are completely wrong. We really don’t need to give them any additional ammunition.
In addition look at it from a commonsense point of view. If you build a championship course to maximum specifications in terms of distance, difficulty of jumps, terrain, and technicality that’s definitely a four star course. But than if you take that in that exact maxed out course and you add deep, sticky footing and only make a few minor changes and what do you call that course? To me it seems like it’s asking unfair questions of our top horses.
Again, will know more tomorrow when we see if the horses pass the jog. I also think it’s hard on the horses that they have to be vanned a good distance in order to do the show jumping. Doesn’t sound like good planning to me.
In case it’s not already up somewhere, here’s WFP’s full XC.[/QUOTE]
Wow! He seemed to have a decent clip the whole way, I can’t imaging 12 penalty points. I’ll have to search for the ride with only 4 penalty points. No one went clean? What was up with the time? Nevertheless, what a ride! Thanks for the link!!
[QUOTE=bluefirelady;7739844]
It’s a fine line to tread though isn’t it trying to please everyone? Top level eventing isn’t supposed to be a walk in the park. Not everyone is supposed to get around clear with no problems- then it will be a dressage competition and I firmly believe the most important phase should be cross country. Welfare is very important, and I think the new jumps and safety measures being implemented and great. I’m sure more compromises, like the end of the long format are going to happen. But it would be a shame to see the sport turn into something where people only win by getting on expensive, warmbloody dressage horses and always win over great cross country horses and riders who can’t make it up because the cross country is too easy.
High level international eventing should be the domain of bold, fast and clever horses and riders, where challenges are tough but fair and you have to be fit and ready. In my opinion it is already going away from that a bit and I would hate to see the end of proper four stars to appease naysayers.[/QUOTE]
I completely agree that cross country should be the most important phase and should be difficult as well as scary. I am the ultimate adrenaline junkie, this is why I came to eventing. The only thing that worries me on a cross country course is my horse’s safety.
In a perfect world we wouldn’t have to make any concessions to “those” people, we would police ourselves without taking into consideration the outside world. Unfortunately we don’t live in a perfect world.
I started out in a very different sport from eventing (I won’t say which) and we came under a lot of fire when we didn’t deserve it. We had to change much of how we did things and spent years in the courts, county and town hall meetings battling. A lot of damage was done to our sport and much of it has died. I’ve seen just how bad things can get and what “those” people can do. Because of my experience my first thought is “Crap! What’s PETA or the humane society going to do to us now?”
[QUOTE=J-Lu;7739878]
Wow! He seemed to have a decent clip the whole way, I can’t imaging 12 penalty points. I’ll have to search for the ride with only 4 penalty points. No one went clean? What was up with the time? Nevertheless, what a ride! Thanks for the link!![/QUOTE]
Andrew Nicholson, I believe, was the one that said it was the ‘worst going/footing he’d ever seen.’ That is likely the number once reason. Even on great footing, challenging, hilly, and long courses make the time hard to make.
Does anyone know who has primary responsibility for our team’s horse’s fitness? In other words, is fitness left up to the rider or does DOC et al have any meaningful input? Is there any any real coordination between the riders and the coaches on issues like fitness? Perhaps a bit more oversight or input from the national staff could be helpful, particularly for our team members with little international experience? I’m not trying to point the finger here, I’m just not sure how our system compares to other systems which had better success with getting their horses home on what proved to be a difficult and tiring course. I do realize that we got 4 of our 6 horses home but the 2 that were retired were team horses and that proved to be very expensive.
[QUOTE=teddygirl;7739856]
I think this is a very valid point. If anyone here really thinks that there are not people out there who would like to put it into eventing they are completely wrong. We really don’t need to give them any additional ammunition.
In addition look at it from a commonsense point of view. If you build a championship course to maximum specifications in terms of distance, difficulty of jumps, terrain, and technicality that’s definitely a four star course. But than if you take that in that exact maxed out course and you add deep, sticky footing and only make a few minor changes and what do you call that course? To me it seems like it’s asking unfair questions of our top horses.
Again, will know more tomorrow when we see if the horses pass the jog. I also think it’s hard on the horses that they have to be vanned a good distance in order to do the show jumping. Doesn’t sound like good planning to me.[/QUOTE]
It makes no sense to me to let the alarmist make the decisions about something they know nothing about.
I’ll hold my comments back … let’s just say the current trend of seeing the sky plummeting to the ground over whatever catches someone’s attention, however little they know about it, is not worthy of support. It’s the reaction that gives it a power it shouldn’t have. Without that, it’s just noise.
More familiarity and education for the public is the ticket, imo. I’ll be happy wherever events are more welcoming, inviting, and understandable to their local communities. That’s a place it can start. Not to mention we could use more new-entry riders in this sport!
[QUOTE=tlw;7739936]
Does anyone know who has primary responsibility for our team’s horse’s fitness? In other words, is fitness left up to the rider or does DOC et al have any meaningful input? Is there any any real coordination between the riders and the coaches on issues like fitness? Perhaps a bit more oversight or input from the national staff could be helpful, particularly for our team members with little international experience? I’m not trying to point the finger here, I’m just not sure how our system compares to other systems which had better success with getting their horses home on what proved to be a difficult and tiring course. I do realize that we got 4 of our 6 horses home but the 2 that were retired were team horses and that proved to be very expensive.[/QUOTE]
I’m trying to find the articles where they talk about the changes that have been implemented for the team. They talk about doing full exams on the horses to get a baseline on their health and to catch underlying issues that could become problems down the road. I seem to remember them talking about fitness too but I can’t find the article.
Anyways I wouldn’t be surprised if they started having the fitness discussion before cross country was even over and that it will continue on for quite some time after WEG. For sure our team will learn from this and use what they have learned to build and improve.
[QUOTE=OverandOnward;7739945]
It makes no sense to me to let the alarmist make the decisions about something they know nothing about.
I’ll hold my comments back … let’s just say the current trend of seeing the sky plummeting to the ground over whatever catches someone’s attention, however little they know about it, is not worthy of support. It’s the reaction that gives it a power it shouldn’t have. Without that, it’s just noise.
More familiarity and education for the public is the ticket, imo. I’ll be happy wherever events are more welcoming, inviting, and understandable to their local communities. That’s a place it can start. Not to mention we could use more new-entry riders in this sport!
Just imo. :)[/QUOTE]
You can’t educate people that don’t want to be educated. They have already made their minds up and we are not going to change them.
Race tracks are open and inviting to the public and what happens to the racing community every time a big horse like Barbaro or Eight Belles breaks down? Or when a jock is killed or paralyzed?
Having time as a factor at a top level competition is a good thing. Whoever is the most certain of their horse’s fitness and obedience can take the straight routes. Otherwise they can take it easier and do the long routes. It’s all there for the walking beforehand. Riders are not forced to complete - they can pull up if their horse is tired.
I don’t understand the hand-wringing over this. The conditions were bad. This is an outdoor sport. If one doesn’t like that, there are indoor jumper shows available. The name of the game is fitness, smart riding, saving the horse where possible, and saving enough gas in the tank for the next day’s show jumping. Don’t forget they used to do all this plus roads and tracks and steeplechase.
If riders need to work on their fitness programs, or consider horses with more blood in them… that is up to the riders.
Blugal–I’m glad you mentioned ‘more blood.’ That thought came to mind as I watched the XC results come in. When you look at the 3DE’s of the past (full 3 day events, that is), those horses completed over very long, very difficult courses and that was after three prior phases. But they were generally all, or mostly all, TB blood.
(figuratively speaking - no we don’t ride on ice, but I did do a schooling event over fresh snow once 