Cross Country

[Badger]

After being there plus watching some of the video feed, I was shocked to see how many horses DID jump around clean but for time. 37 out of 90 riders jumped the course clean. Another 26 finished with jump penalties. So that’s 27 that retired or were eliminated and didn’t finish the course. More than a third jumped clean, just over 2/3rds finished, almost a third did not.

For a world championship, this seems about right. For the most part, the course separated the wheat from the chafe with time penalties and run outs and fatigue. I could have used a good bit less of the fatigue factor, but given the variances of weather and footing for an outdoor sport, the more I think about it the more I think it was a bloody brilliant bit of design. The fatigue factor wasn’t meant to play so much of a role, but even with the very heavy going, the course did a heck of a job.

Harry Meade’s horse’s death is wrenching, and I hope we can get a lot more educated about those things. But otherwise, I think it was very successful day. If the death truly was not a result of mental or physical fatigue from the competition, then it is a separate conversation.

Buck as trailblazer was going for time. In hindsight, time was not doable, but I bet the strategy was an educated and informed team decision that ended up not being the right one. The course was jumpable but how much time you were willing to risk was a huge strategy factor and going first in team rotation ended up a big disadvantage. Boyd was damn good.

I was in awe of Jonelle Price from NZL from what I saw from the ropes. If there is video of her round, please point me to it.

[NorCal10]

Badger- I’m curious as to where people that went to watch the cross country are staying. Did they drive all the way from Caen, staying locally? Are the Snoozebox units only for the riders?
My mom and I have been talking about those all night. There are a brilliant idea. We wish FEMA had something like that here in the states for natural disaster relief. It would be much better than the FEMA trailers.
Off topic I know, I’m sorry.

[Badger]

We are at a hotel in Caen, about 2-1/2 miles from the main arena. It’s a bit over an hour drive to the XC venue. Yesterday we left the hotel at 7am and were sitting by a XC jump at 9:40 waiting for the first horse to go at 10. We stopped at a bakery for pan au chocolate on the way in, plus a food truck after we entered the XC course and grabbed chicken baguettes to hold onto until lunch. Traffic added about 30 mins to our drive each way, and it was a hike to parking, but the XC course itself was super easy to negotiate with far less walking than Rolex, and parking was way better than Rolex WEG opening ceremonies (times 10!). The mud was way improved over Thurs: muddy soles but not much deeper if you used some caution where you stepped. Organizers finally got things right.

[Doodlebug1]

I’m not sure that fitness is really the issue here (or lack of it), of course a fit horse matters hugely - but I don’t think that’s the key difference between the nation’s performance.

I think the point in here has been raised several times about the USA having consistently relatively great footing compared to here in the UK. And I think that’s absolutely true. The top riders are saying the going at WEG this year was right up there with some of the crappiest at that level - but these riders that have been in Europe have come up through pony club and lower level affiliated comps where there is much less ground preparation (including CCI 1 and 2*) - and trust me, the conditions can be much, much worse with really bad poaching on take off and landing. Pony Club and small events are effectively in someone’s back yard, there isn’t the big money to provide perfect going like the drainage systems at the big events.

These riders become better at ‘disobeying’ team orders in order to choose the best going to conserve the horses. William talked about not being able to ride what they walked - and Zara too referred to hunting round. I didn’t see Harry’s round, but he really is good at riding in this style too, identifying the best opportunities for the horses to maintain their rhythm. I wonder if USA riders are actually a bit too literal about following orders and not deviating enough to conserve their horses - and then outwardly it looks as though their horses are not quite as fit?

One year I was grooming for one of our team riders at a 3* and was chatting to one of the riders owners near the XC finish as we waited for one of the riders SEVEN horses competing that weekend - not all in the 3* and the owner was saying how she personally hunted her horses as youngsters before passing them on to talented riders to take up through the eventing ranks. The reason? She firmly believed that a horse that at a young age learns to deal with all types of terrain and, critically, may be out for three hours, five hours, or six hours a) learns to deal with mud etc and that stands them in good stead and b) because the horse never knows if they’re out for an hour or seven, they learn never to burn out early, they always hold something back so they can keep going as long as is required.

It was an interesting perspective and one I didn’t really subscribe to at the time (I’ve actually found horses that hunt a lot a bit too ‘looky’ on XC courses as they try and pick their ground and figure out their landing themselves, they don’t take much on a flyer) but I do think now there is an element of truth - that these top horses all came up through the baby ranks and have all learnt how to deal with mud. Courses here are quite varied so one week you’re on a really hilly course, the next a flat, wet one and horses do learn to conserve themselves.

Of course sometimes it still doesn’t work for them (Oli’s horse), but the combination of riders prepared to alter their plan to provide the best going, and horses more used to the terrain may look ‘fitter’, when actually fitness regime is not the differentiator.

I loved WEG at Kentucky, I wish I was in France now, but getting ready with fingers crossed to watch the SJ. Come on GB! Let’s get Harry on the podium.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

Those going on about Footing not being muddy or deep in the US have obviously not been to FairHill 3* that often.

Also NOONE runs in footing as bad as was at WEG this weekend. Which from reports of people there was worse than Badminton this year and THAT was unusually bad/deep footing.

Most of the US riders have a lot of experience looking for good footing and riding in difficult situations. Buck for example grew up fox hunting in the BiG hunt country of Cheshire hunt here in PA. Boyd and Phillip grew up in Australia.

When I went to England, I couldn’t get over how good their turf and footing was. They compete in BETTER footing than in the US most of the time. This was not a factor in why the US didn’t do well and the Brits did. I just think people are being over critical and over thinking it. The British based riders did do great. But there wasn’t a foot perfect round by anyone that I saw yesterday. There was a bit of good luck besides good riding that helped everyone who completed without jump penalties.

[snoopy]

“Better” footing in UK…yes. Drier/firmer footing in the UK…NO!!! Doodlebug makes a great point about team orders and first to go. I do think the footing played a part. In my previous postings…could have even been the first…I meant to include Fairhill and it’s difficulty AND the footing/rain. When it is wet, a huge number of combinations do not get round. And BLAME the conditions the riders DO! The USA riders do tend to chase the dry footing throughout the year. Riders are not great navigating it and horses are just plain not used to running it on any regular basis.

[wanderlust]

Before continuing to malign the US riders and their conditioning, I’d suggest watching a few of the videos of the whole course. The footing is atrocious between the jumps. Since it seems that many more got around in the afternoon, I have to wonder if it either dried up or tamped down from the morning rounds.

If it wasn’t the World Games or another major championship, no rider in their right mind would have run a top horse on that ground. WFP and Andrew Nicholson say it’s the worst footing they’ve ever competed on.

I don’t think it makes one bit of sense to train your top 4* horses on (as someone suggested a page or two ago) or condition for the worst ground ever seen at a major championship. Unless of course you want to risk seriously injuring them from deep sucking footing or overuse trying to get them too fit. And then let’s talk about what happens to dressage with an overfit horse, or how they completely wear themselves out fighting through the first part of the XC course.

For those who haven’t been, both Kentucky and the mid-atlantic can have terrible mud. From the shoe-sucking clay of KY to slick as snot MD/PA mud and grass, we have bad footing here too, rest assured.

Sometimes the criticisms on this board really make me shake my head.

[Blugal]

Yes I do wonder about combinations that don’t practice for all conditions. I know I often tell myself, “I’d better ride in this horrible rain/mud/sleet because it could happen at Rolex.”

To anyone saying that nobody ever competes in these conditions… Well they do. At WEG. And Fair Hill. And Badminton. Might as well be ready for it because they aren’t cancelling WEG…

[vineyridge]

Most US (North American) eventers are so scared of horse injury that they won’t even risk foxhunting, which does give experience in all different sorts of conditions and terrains and footing. We also have year round eventing, instead of giving horses the winter off to do dressage, foxhunting and show jumping shows.

That’s very different from much of the rest of the world.

I’m not saying that 4* horses necessarily should foxhunt, but that it would be good for young horses because of everything that they learn. I can’t say that the foxhunters that I know are particularly prone to injury, except for whipper-in’s horses. In fact, they are often very, very sound and very, very fit.

[Eventer13]

I seem to remember a Badminton (or maybe Burghley) that was very dry. A lot of the Brits were withdrawing because the ground was considered way too hard. The Americans competing, however, were pretty happy with the footing. So maybe the average course over there is softer and heavier. There have been quite a few British events I’ve seen clips of that I thought had very deep footing, and it didn’t seem to concern them too much. Sure Fair Hill might be tough, but one 3* a year is certainly not a lot of practice for you or your horse in how to deal with those conditions.

I always wondered if that was why the Brits do so much road work. If they are working on softer going, maybe they need something to help with bone. Whereas the Americans get that just by galloping around at events.

[Lilly]

[QUOTE=snoopy;7739396]
I absolutely disagree with you on both points. Yes, Rolex is a bit on the soft side but not by much. I do not think it needs to be longer. Our three star courses could rival any in the world. Our courses are plenty long enough.

Those two horses are a bit “cold blooded” in their nature but this course was well within their capabilities. Had the conditions been a bit better, I am sure they would have come home.[/QUOTE]

I think the American horses did look to need better conditioning, but Buck’s horse was so tired I’m not sure he could have gotten around that course even with better conditioning. He looked tired long before the last water. The course + that footing looked to be too much for him? Not enough blood traits in that horse for such a tough course.

[snoopy]

[QUOTE=Lilly;7740473]
I think the American horses did look to need better conditioning, but Buck’s horse was so tired I’m not sure he could have gotten around that course even with better conditioning. He looked tired long before the last water. The course + that footing looked to be too much for him? Not enough blood traits in that horse for such a tough course.[/QUOTE]

Did you actually see the footage of the XC?? I mean see it, not just read about it? The americans were not the only ones caught out by the holding ground. Even some who did cross the finish line looked VERY leg weary indeed. Andrew, Ingrid, William, Zara, and many others said the ground was like nothing they had ever ridden. Ingrid said you could not tell from the telly but the ground was VERY tiring for the horses. I am quite sure that Buck and Phillip know how to condition a horse, as do many of the other world class riders whose horses struggled in the conditions. I still believe that all those horses deserved to be there, that the American effort was great, and that the conditions were tough for those two horses. Nobody made time, most struggled to get home. Many did not. It was a great course, great design, great location. The condition of the ground sucked. It happens. This was a great team at WEG and I am excited to see what the other Americans can do at Burghley/Blenheim…and a nations cup team at Bokelo if we send one. David has only been two years at his post and we have seen better team spirit, more inclusion towards the eventing community, vision, planning, and training. This weekend was not our weekend. Just as it was not the weekend of the Kiwi’s who were favored by some to actually win. Sure, we did not qualify for RIO which is a bummer, but we will send four star combinations to the 2 star Pan Ams to secure our place at Rio, and David and his team will continue to perfect training, develop depth of talent, and send more to europe next spring and autumn. I would not count us out in the next two years if we continue down the path we are taking. I believe our riders did a great job all weekend.

[Lilly]

Yes, I watched the footage, I didn’t just read about it. I have subscriptions to both FEI TV and clipmyhorse and saw almost all of the XC yesterday.

Other horse/rider teams did finish, you know. Including Andrew, Ingrid, William and Zara. Buck’s horse could not, and as I said he looked tired long before the stop.

You sound very defensive.

[Eventer13]

Buck was also first to go, and didn’t have the luxury of watching previous rides to know not to go for time. The first few on course had issues, it wasn’t until later that riders started ignoring the clock and focused more on just getting around in a good rhythm.

[Gnep]

There are some questions to be asked
Both North American teams are outside the qualification and most of their eventing happens in the US.
Klimke mentioned in an interview that if she had not been a team rider she would have retired in X-C, but she brought her horse home, save and sound and managed on top of it a perfect stadium.

So what skills do the European riders have, that the North Americans are missing.

The conditions were the same for everybody, probably worse for the later starters especialy for the last.
If one overlooks the death of the british horse, than the top 2 teams, would have started stadium as complet teams.

Fitness of the horses and that extra skill 5 of 6 German rider double clear in stadium, 5 of 6 no jump penalties in x-c, GB equaly impressive.
That is impressive and means for the North Americans a rather long road to catch up.
DOC has his work cut out

[Lilly]

[QUOTE=Eventer13;7740589]
Buck was also first to go, and didn’t have the luxury of watching previous rides to know not to go for time. The first few on course had issues, it wasn’t until later that riders started ignoring the clock and focused more on just getting around in a good rhythm.[/QUOTE]

I’m sure he was shooting for a good rhythm and to finish, regardless, given the footing and the horse under him. It’s not as though he’s new at this! Agree with Gnep, the European horse/rider teams are just better right now.

[JER]

[QUOTE=snoopy;7740505]
This weekend was not our weekend. [/QUOTE]

It never is. Not in recent years.

snoopy, as much as I respect your experience and insights, I think you’re being a bit optimistic here.

I see a years-long trend of ‘not-our-weekends’ where you see progress toward international success. I’m not sure where that’s coming from. Team spirit and inclusiveness are no substitute for results, and sending a four-star team to a two-star is hardly the solution to lack of quality.

[Divine_Comedy]

Going forward, I rather wonder if the percentage of blood of the potential team horse will be given a higher consideration that it would had the colder blooded horses for the US not run out of steam this weekend.

I’m sure that these horses were conditioned as well as they could possibly be, and have heard firsthand that Trading Aces in particular looks like a different animal. But no matter how much you condition an ISH, the fact of the matter is that most TBs with the same conditioning regimen will run them into the ground.

Will be interesting if breed now comes into play for selections. Maybe not for Pan Ams since it’s a two star but for the four stars for sure.

[Larksmom]

well, I am wondering about the very old type of horses, as someone mentioned a page or two back. Say at Bromont '76, or Kentucky 78. Those courses were MUCH tougher. Weren’t they mostly Thoroughbreds? Thankfully, the courses are also MUCH safer, there are lots of safety issues, like not going on after two falls, :rolleyes:, But the horses have changed too. IIRC, they decided that since there wasn’t as much galloping, maybe that is when the switch came. Do we still do interval training?

[Lord_Helpus]

In the last several years, it has never “been our weekend” Yes, there is always the anomaly which proves the point but ending mid pack has become the norm in International competition.

I think it is more constructive to look at the countries who were successful and ask what they are doing right, rather than point to the ones who were not (including the USA).

Countries which got 6 out of 6 around the course, and 5 out of 6 clear in SJ are doing things that lead to their success. Yes, they have great riders, yes they have good horses. But the German’s lost their best horse, Sam, and the English had one of their best horses die. – and they still sailed around x/c and sj.

One of the differences between the top teams and the US is that those riders have top dressage instructors for dressage, and top jumper trainers for SJ. Nice as David O’C is, and talented as he is, he does not have the top skills that specialists have to fine tune our top riders.

Top trainers DO create top riders. That is why people spend the big bucks to train with them, if they want to be at the top.

Boyd’s dressage schooling is an example of this. He does not expect an eventer to tune his dressage horses. He (conveniently ) is married to a GP dressage rider who tunes his horses.

So why don’t all our eventers do this, too? Yes, some do, but not all and not on a regular basis.

Seems to me that this is a no brainer if the US is to improve by the 10% that it will take to make us competitive at the highest level.

I really think it is time to stop making excuses and start making changes.

I have other ideas, – like having more than 1 **** quality level event at KHP. The course is there, why not use it more? We need to create conditions that enable our best to fine tune their skills more. Same with the the West, South and East coasts – take the best facilities out there – jack up the difficulty level in selected combinations, and USE THEM. Stop bemoaning that we only have 1 **** event and toughen up the events we do have. Why not have a new division higher than *** and call it an “International Division”?

The USA needs to toughen up our team riders so they do not collapse when confronted by hard courses and adverse conditions.