Cross Country

[Eventer13]

Lilly, I bet Buck came out of the start box with more pace than he would have if he had been later in the day. Not real fair to compare the exhaustion of his horse to those other riders you mentioned, who at least knew they had to be very conservative regarding speed.

You are saying he couldn’t make it around the course due to fitness concerns. I’m saying that you are comparing apples to oranges when you look at his horse vs the others you mentioned that got around, since they knew not to push for time. He had no idea that the time was totally unattainable, and his horse ran out of gas because of it. Doesn’t mean they wouldn’t have gotten around had Buck been the 2nd or 3rd team rider. Or the 11th rider in the line-up, like Zara.

[omare]

Don’t experienced riders know early on in a course when the going is too yielding to make time?

[vineyridge]

Just want to point out that the Germans don’t generally do 4s as part of their games preparations. I wouldn’t be surprised at all if Sam had never done a 4 before Lexington; certainly he’d never done 5. The Germans prove that we can’t excuse US performance on the lack of 4* experience. But they do take their event horses out to dressage and showjumping competitions, and it’s there that the level of competition is so much higher than the usual run of US competitions.

[flyracing]

[QUOTE=Lord Helpus;7740706]

I have other ideas, – like having more than 1 **** quality level event at KHP. The course is there, why not use it more? We need to create conditions that enable our best to fine tune their skills more. Same with the the West, South and East coasts – take the best facilities out there – jack up the difficulty level in selected combinations, and USE THEM. Stop bemoaning that we only have 1 **** event and toughen up the events we do have. Why not have a new division higher than *** and call it an “International Division”?

The USA needs to toughen up our team riders so they do not collapse when confronted by hard courses and adverse conditions.[/QUOTE]

I agree with the first part of your post about specialist instructors, but I’d like to point out that the FEI won’t allow us to add more four stars or even three stars just because we want them. There are a lot more politics to it than that, not to mention the logistical/financial component of a new 4 start course.

Not a bad idea on the “international division” and I think it would be suitable at observation events. We’ve done it before at Rolex when preparing riders for the new short format olympics and it seemed to go well.

Personally, I didn’t think our riders skills were significantly lacking. It appeared to be a primary fitness/length-of-track issue for the 2 R’s. Did the team prepare for this championship differently (timing of flight over, number of competitions ran, ect)?

[BAC]

[QUOTE=Divine Comedy;7740637]
Going forward, I rather wonder if the percentage of blood of the potential team horse will be given a higher consideration that it would had the colder blooded horses for the US not run out of steam this weekend.

I’m sure that these horses were conditioned as well as they could possibly be, and have heard firsthand that Trading Aces in particular looks like a different animal. But no matter how much you condition an ISH, the fact of the matter is that most TBs with the same conditioning regimen will run them into the ground.

Will be interesting if breed now comes into play for selections. Maybe not for Pan Ams since it’s a two star but for the four stars for sure.[/QUOTE]

i have read a number of times where riders have mentioned how difficult their warm bloods are to get fit and/or how tired they get so I wonder how much that contributes to their performance and even falls. But I think the warm bloods are here to stay, no one wants to give up their high dressage scores.

And I never thought DOC was the right choice as coach. They should steal Christopher Bartle or someone else from Europe who knows how to train winners.

[Equibrit]

Did anybody notice what was written on all the GB saddle pads. It said - LOTTERY FUNDING. That means that they are funded for training, vet, farrier, physio, in fact anything they need for success, and most of them since they were juniors. It makes a huge difference. You just don’t see that kind of support here.

[Divine_Comedy]

[QUOTE=BAC;7740835]
i have read a number of times where riders have mentioned how difficult their warm bloods are to get fit and/or how tired they get so I wonder how much that contributes to their performance and even falls. But I think the warm bloods are here to stay, no one wants to give up their high dressage scores. [/QUOTE]

Agreed about the warmbloods here to stay, but I’m talking percentage of TB blood, which some WBs like Tate have in abundance. I’m just wondering if future selections will take percentage of blood of the horse into stronger consideration.

[Lord_Helpus]

flyracing (and others),

WHY do we need FEI sanction for these additional events? Is there a rule which says so? My “vision” is to run these divisions under FEI rules, but not waiting for FEI (or USEF) approval before organizing them.

I am a H/J princess who frequently jump judges and had a horse in training and competing with Bobby Costello last year – I am familiar with many of the rules of eventing and have discovered that I love it. So I have somewhat of a mixed orientation now.

When the hunter world wanted to have special classes for top horses and pre-green horses, it did not wait for these classes to be approved by the USEF. These classes were run the day before the USEF show started and were run under USEF rules. The hunter division did not wait for approval, but approval did come.

If we look for reasons we cannot do things, they will never get done. Instead, the eventing population needs to define goals and then work toward them.

As William Ward said: If you can imagine it, you can achieve it.

[OverandOnward]

[QUOTE=Lord Helpus;7740869]
flyracing (and others),

WHY do we need FEI sanction for these additional events? Is there a rule which says so? My “vision” is to run these divisions under FEI rules, but not waiting for FEI (or USEF) approval before organizing them.

I am a H/J princess who frequently jump judges and had a horse in training and competing with Bobby Costello last year – I am familiar with many of the rules of eventing and have discovered that I love it. So I have somewhat of a mixed orientation now.

When the hunter world wanted to have special classes for top horses and pre-green horses, it did not wait for these classes to be approved by the USEF. These classes were run the day before the USEF show started and were run under USEF rules. The hunter division did not wait for approval, but approval did come.

If we look for reasons we cannot do things, they will never get done. Instead, the eventing population needs to define goals and then work toward them.

As William Ward said: If you can imagine it, you can achieve it.

:)[/QUOTE]

Luv. Appointing you head of the Change Team.

THIS especially

“If we look for reasons we cannot do things, they will never get done. Instead, the eventing population needs to define goals and then work toward them.”

Can’t take ‘no’ or ‘it won’t work because’ for an answer. Fire those people from the Change Team and get ones who believe.

[Divine_Comedy]

[QUOTE=Lord Helpus;7740869]

WHY do we need FEI sanction for these additional events? Is there a rule which says so? My “vision” is to run these divisions under FEI rules, but not waiting for FEI (or USEF) approval before organizing them. [/QUOTE]

So…our top pairs risk injury and waste their horses legs on a CCI that isn’t officially regulated, or scored, or on record. Then, because they ran an unofficial CCI, they can no longer route to an official CCI, so their record and qualifications are completely blank?

Remember, you have to obtain qualifications at certain events (usually CCI) to even be allowed to be considered for a team. You have to obtain qualifications at FEI events to move up through the levels. A horse generally only runs two CCIs a year, one in the spring and one in the fall. They simply cannot handle the wear and tear on their bodies for more, especially at the 3 and 4* levels, and usually get a period of time off directly after. I cannot imagine anyone being willing to risk their horses at ‘unsanctioned’ events that in the end give the horse and rider experience, but no record of said experience. It can be a tough climb to get through the levels, and experience with a record will trump experience without a record every time.

This was the downfall of the Prelim Long Format. It required just as much conditioning (if not more) than a CCI1*, was just as long and difficult, and cause just as much wear and tear, but the FEI didn’t recognize it (anymore). So running a Prelim Long Format essentially became a ‘wasted’ season because then you had to go and do a CCI1* as well instead of moving up (if you were ready).

(I’m not trying to make this a LF v SF debate, I ran one of the last LF CCI1* myself and loved the experience, and would generally recommend anyone thinking about moving up to P to end their final T season with a T3D. But the P3D is essentially what Lord Helpus is talking about, an ‘unsanctioned’ 1*, with all of the difficulty, but none of the benefits of obtaining FEI qualifications.)

On top of that, there is a LOT more effort that would need to be put into running an additional event; it’s not just adding a class to the show list and setting up the ring. You’re talking an enormous amount of money to just build an XC course, a gargantuan effort to run the show, including volunteers.

I just don’t think what you’re talking about it feasible.

[Mouse_amp_Bay]

[QUOTE=Divine Comedy;7740637]
Going forward, I rather wonder if the percentage of blood of the potential team horse will be given a higher consideration that it would had the colder blooded horses for the US not run out of steam this weekend.[/QUOTE]

For comparison sake re: percentage of blood:

Here are the top 5:
Opgun Louvo - Selle Francaise - 83.98%

Fischerocana - don’t know the registry - 63.87%

Chilli Morning - SHBGB - 62.89%

Classic Moet - SHBGB - 75%

Qalao Des Mers - Selle Francais - 75.39%

US Team:
Donner - 100% TB

Ballynoe Castle - ISH - 63.48%

Manoir De Carnville - Selle Francais - 75.39%

Trading Aces - ISH - 35.74%

Shamwari - Hanoverian - 59.18%

Fernhill Fearless - ISH x TB cross - 50% - not very accurate as the dam is listed as unknown.

Arguably some of the US team horses that finished well would not have been predicted that way when looking at the percentage of blood alone.

[Divine_Comedy]

[QUOTE=Mouse&Bay;7740893]
For comparison sake re: percentage of blood:

Here are the top 3:
Opgun Louvo - Selle Francaise - 83.98%

Fischerocana - don’t know the registry - 63.87%

Chilli Morning - SHBGB - 62.89%

Classic Moet - SHBGB - 75%

Qalao Des Mers - Selle Francais - 75.39%

US Team:
Donner - 100% TB

Ballynoe Castle - ISH - 63.48%

Manoir De Carnville - Selle Francais - 75.39%

Trading Aces - ISH - 35.74%

Shamwari - Hanoverian - 59.18%

Fernhill Fearless - ISH x TB cross - 50% - not very accurate as the dam is listed as unknown.[/QUOTE]

Well that is certainly interesting. I do wonder now if Buck hadn’t set out trying to get close to the time, if Reggie could have made it home. But it looks like Trading Aces had significantly less than the others…like I said, I wonder if they put a harder limit on the percentage now.

[Blugal]

I don’t think it’s necessarily a lack of specialist coaches - after all the main problems came on XC not in dressage or SJ. (You have to finish with a numerical score… in order for it to count!!!)

Buck can’t sit on his hands and say, “Well I had no idea the time couldn’t be made.” It’s not about the watch. If the going is as bad as everyone knew, then everyone (and their dog) knew they probably weren’t going to make time. It’s not rocket science. You condition your horses, you run them at HT and CCIs, you get a feel for how different conditions run, but above all, you learn how your own horse feels and how much he can do at what speed over what terrain. That is the essence of our sport.

Also when looking at blood, it is not just a % but also the phenotype of the horse. Some take more after their dams or sires… some come out of the womb shaking the earth and others are light on their toes.

And in the “good ol days” there were lots of non-TBs. The Brits had their Hunter Improvement Sires and tended toward a dash of Irish or pony blood. The Europeans always had TBs, Anglo-Arabs, Selle Francais, Trakehner, and light Russian horses. Their WBs for eventing weren’t necessarily heavy - because they had to hold up to the roads & tracks and steeplechase too.

As far as “what can we do?”

Well first of all, relying on CICs for qualifications and sorting out team places is, I think, idiotic. They are not representative of this sport at the top level. They are good practice for dressage and show jumping, but especially with the FEI rule that SJ be held first, they are just glorified horse trials.

Secondly, it might benefit some riders to consider their long-term careers as part of the game when considering the horses they are riding; maybe going in the mud at a 1* is worthwhile in the big picture of this horse’s career. Or a 2*. Or a HT.

Boyd Martin consistently gets the job done. He brought Neville Bardos back from smoke inhalation to a top-10 finish at Burghley after his top-10 finish at WEG 2010. He took over Shamwari, did top 3 at Luhmulen and then top ten WEG. I think it’s not just a skill level, but also a competitiveness and drive. What can we learn from this?

[SnicklefritzG]

@Lord Helpus;7740706

I
One of the differences between the top teams and the US is that those riders have top dressage instructors for dressage, and top jumper trainers for SJ. Nice as David O’C is, and talented as he is, he does not have the top skills that specialists have to fine tune our top riders.

Top trainers DO create top riders. That is why people spend the big bucks to train with them, if they want to be at the top.

Boyd’s dressage schooling is an example of this. He does not expect an eventer to tune his dressage horses. He (conveniently ) is married to a GP dressage rider who tunes his horses.

So why don’t all our eventers do this, too? Yes, some do, but not all and not on a regular basis.

Seems to me that this is a no brainer if the US is to improve by the 10% that it will take to make us competitive at the highest level.

I agree that Boyd has a huge advantage. He can have his wife ride his horses and school them on the flat without missing a beat in their regular program. He doesn’t have to trailer out to get specialized training or invite anyone in for a clinic.

I think most event riders aren’t going to have an easy time doing this. I imagine that most of them are busy with sales and client horses in addition to teaching. Whatever time they take off to trailer out for a dressage lesson is time taken away from their regular business. I know a few who take periodic dressage lessons, but when they are also taking horses out X-C, trailering to horse trials, there is only a limited amount of time for these other things.

[Blugal]

[QUOTE=SnicklefritzG;7740910]
I agree that Boyd has a huge advantage. He can have his wife ride his horses and school them on the flat without missing a beat in their regular program. He doesn’t have to trailer out to get specialized training or invite anyone in for a clinic.

I think most event riders aren’t going to have an easy time doing this. I imagine that most of them are busy with sales and client horses in addition to teaching. Whatever time they take off to trailer out for a dressage lesson is time taken away from their regular business. I know a few who take periodic dressage lessons, but when they are also taking horses out X-C, trailering to horse trials, there is only a limited amount of time for these other things.[/QUOTE]

The age-old question, balancing the business with the need/want to be competitive. Whining that we don’t get lottery funding isn’t going to help us get more funding. (Besides which, choosing to be a professional rider isn’t exactly the biggest problem in the world today.) Riders need to be creative - and I sympathise, getting and keeping sponsors/money isn’t an easy task - if they want to be competitive on a world stage.

[Mouse_amp_Bay]

Re: the dressage coach

I’m going to go out on a bit of a limb here… I think in some circumstances ego prevents eventers from using dressage coaches that are available to them. They have their own clients that they are coaching, taking to lessons… earning income from. They do not want to share this by allowing a dressage coach in. While this may be beneficial to their performance and development as athletes, it simultaneously causes potential conflict with their financial base. The model we have here in North America is just so different from what top riders in Europe need to contend with.

[flyracing]

@Lord Helpus;7740869

flyracing (and others),

WHY do we need FEI sanction for these additional events? Is there a rule which says so? My “vision” is to run these divisions under FEI rules, but not waiting for FEI (or USEF) approval before organizing them.

I completely understand how you think that would work and its a great thought, but the eventing community cannot support it.

At the upper levels, FEI support is very important (even if we don’t “like” the FEI). Above, rider qualifications was well explained. Additionally, the world ranking list is going to become very important for the US or Canada after Nov 1st through the first of 2016, because one of us is likely going to attempt to fill a team or send individuals to the Olympics based on rank. The only way to get points is at FEI competitions.

I would like to emphasize the previously made point that riders cannot run their horses in upper level events (especially FEI or ‘international division’) like showing in other sports. The horses don’t stay sound.

We’re also talking about making horses run around “Badminton 2.0” difficulty and length with the associated risks with very minimal reward to the rider and horses (pride and schooling experience). The risk and reward do not work out.

Also remember, that if this competition had not been WEG, but was instead one of the other 4 stars, the condition would have lead to either cancellation or significant withdrawals. However, since it is WEG the rewards outweighed the risk for this one weekend. No one will run their horse that hard for practice. It’s just not done.

A great idea in theory. Unfortunately, we tried it at the lower FEI levels already and people don’t show up.

[Gnep]

One more point.
The excuse is always the horse, or its breeding.

My question, what does a 27 year old know, what the old salts do not know.

The last 2 champions were not even 30. That makes them babies in eventing terms.
Were are the North American Eventing Babies. In 2010 the Canadiens surprised with their twens, but where is the next generation.
The US Team always looks like the Golden Age Club. For the Pan Am, they need their AARP card as qualifier.

Snoopy, you know as well as I, that under those condition you do not ride plan A,B,C, you fly by your seat of your pants and have to develop ABC approaching every jump, you do that on the fly.
Instinct, but it needs to be honed, equaly how you conserve your horse under conditions like that, choice of lane, approach and speed.
Fair weather eventing does not hone those skills and that cost the North Americans.
Even Brazil brought the Team home

There is NO excuse. That x-c brought all the problems of US Eventing to the fore front.

To old, to established, to secure and unable to cope when the going gets tough.

As I said before the US needs a cut, have one seasoned rider and built a fresh young team around that one.
Start with the Pan Am.
The AARP sucks, big time, since years

[Drvmb1ggl3]

@Divine Comedy;7740637

I’m sure that these horses were conditioned as well as they could possibly be, and have heard firsthand that Trading Aces in particular looks like a different animal. But no matter how much you condition an ISH, the fact of the matter is that most TBs with the same conditioning regimen will run them into the ground.

Sorry, but that’s just bullsh!t. The ISH has been winning Burghley, Badminton, Olympic golds and World Championships in eventing since the 1950s, and even earlier.

The original purpose of the ISH was a hunting horse, and if you’ve ever been hunting in Ireland you’d know that that means a horse that gallops all day long often up to it’s hocks in mud.

[SlamDunk]

[QUOTE=Drvmb1ggl3;7740960]
Sorry, but that’s just bullsh!t. The ISH has been winning Burghley, Badminton, Olympic golds and World Championships in eventing since the 1950s, and even earlier.

The original purpose of the ISH was a hunting horse, and if you’ve ever been hunting in Ireland you’d know that that means a horse that gallops all day long often up to it’s hocks in mud.[/QUOTE]

But ISH means a lot of things. I’m more familiar with Jumper bloodlines but looking through the eventers there is over lap with stallions like Cruising, Touchdown, Ricardo Z, Cavalier Royale etc all with varying degree of TB blood.

I also don’t think they are breeding to hunt anymore, I think most breeders of there would tell you they are breeding for sport (whether that is Showjumping or Eventing).