Interesting that both Zara Phillips and WFP described what they were doing on XC as “hunting”. Their plans didn’t work, so they rode off the seat of their pants. As Drvm said, many Irish horses have a couple of seasons of hunting under their belts, and it’s considered a good selling point. All you have to do is look at the Go For Gold catalog.
Not intending to trivialize the importance of improving our dressage scores, but all the master dressage instruction in the world won’t do any good if we can’t get around XC without jumping penalties and letter scores.
Nice to see you back, Gnep. Love the AARP comment :lol:
If riders from the US spent more time hunting and drinking, their X-C scores would likely improve.
[QUOTE=Eventer13;7740731]
Lilly, I bet Buck came out of the start box with more pace than he would have if he had been later in the day. Not real fair to compare the exhaustion of his horse to those other riders you mentioned, who at least knew they had to be very conservative regarding speed.
You are saying he couldn’t make it around the course due to fitness concerns. I’m saying that you are comparing apples to oranges when you look at his horse vs the others you mentioned that got around, since they knew not to push for time. He had no idea that the time was totally unattainable, and his horse ran out of gas because of it. Doesn’t mean they wouldn’t have gotten around had Buck been the 2nd or 3rd team rider. Or the 11th rider in the line-up, like Zara.[/QUOTE]
I’m sure he was well aware of the heavy footing. I mean, come on. The horse just couldn’t finish, and Buck looked like he was nursing the horse around long before the stop.
[QUOTE=omare;7740779]
Don’t experienced riders know early on in a course when the going is too yielding to make time?[/QUOTE]
You’d think so, right??
[QUOTE=Drvmb1ggl3;7740960]
Sorry, but that’s just bullsh!t. The ISH has been winning Burghley, Badminton, Olympic golds and World Championships in eventing since the 1950s, and even earlier.
The original purpose of the ISH was a hunting horse, and if you’ve ever been hunting in Ireland you’d know that that means a horse that gallops all day long often up to it’s hocks in mud.[/QUOTE]
Different ISH individuals have differing amounts of blood. I’d bet most of the ones who have one 4* champs under their belt have more TB blood than Irish Draught. Just like some TBs are bred to be sprinters and quit after a 3/4 of a mile. And you can’t tell me that TBs weren’t the primary choice of eventers back in the day of the long format. Maybe ISH were 2nd, but there was a reason TBs were preferred for eventers.
Also, I said that the conditioning regimen being the same for both breeds, the TB would outrun the ISH. But most people I know who have ISH do more conditioning with the ones with TBs for the same fitness levels. I wonder if those hunt horses who galloped all day were just properly conditioned for the job, and whether a TB would be able to keep up given the same conditioning.
There’s a lot of factors going on here, and I think ISH are great, but would love to see lighter breeding involved. My ideal horse would be 10-20% ISH, 80-90% TB. It’s not like I hate the breed or anything.
But obviously, not all ISH are the same. Trading Aces was ridden conservatively and still quit; obviously he wouldn’t be one of those who could ‘gallop all day up to its hocks in mud.’ And how do you separate ones that can from ones that can’t until they do it? And if that moment that they first do it is at a WEG…well, then, maybe some more TB blood might be helpful.
Yes I can tell you. Go back and look at Badminton and Burghley top 10 finishers every year from 50’s through the 90’s and tell us what you find.
The ISH, or ‘Irish Half bred’ as it was called back then, was by far the most sought after horse.
I have no solutions. But as a reasonably educated fan, I feel like I can point out some of the problems:
-
Trading Aces and Reggie were not fit enough. TA looked EXACTLY the same as he did when he quit at Rolex a year ago. Just completely ran out of steam. Boyd himself said that this was the year the horse needed to prove he could run a 4 star, which is why he sent him on to KY with Phillip. TA made it around Kentucky in great footing on a course where a bunch of horses made the time. It is now clear that this was not sufficient evidence he could make it around the WEG. He didn’t even make it close to the end. I’m a little frustrated by the comments that heap praise on the riders for making the right call and retiring. Both horses were flat out exhausted and couldn’t make it out of a trot. They would have been eliminated at the next fence if they hadn’t retired, and Buck and Phillip certainly know that.
-
The Germans are flat out dominate. They bring their horses (who have a lot of WB) up in the three stars, but absolutely excel in the championship environment. They were spectacular in both jumping phases across the board, and heaven knows they are great in dressage. What are they doing differently??? We need to figure that out, period. We had one clear SJ round today; they had 5. They are outstanding competitors.
-
The fact that neither our team nor Canada qualified for the OG is a big deal. Sending 4* combinations to the Pan Ams hurts us in the long run. It is a season lost for those combinations (contesting a 2* instead of going to Europe and gaining great experience) and does nothing for our pipeline of youngsters which is already hurting.
-
I’m with everyone else who things DOC has made improvements for the US team. That said, results matter, and these results are no better - arguably worse- then those in the CMP era. The coach is not the whole solution here.
[QUOTE=Blugal;7741010]
Nice to see you back, Gnep. Love the AARP comment :lol:[/QUOTE]
Thanks Love.
But don’t ya think that fresh meat is needed.
Not just by reason of performance, but just by looks.
She is kinde cute, she fits those breeches quiet nicely, I would say.
Compare that with Jr, yaiks.
But honestly US eventing is old. Who wants to watch his father or grandfather compet and fail.
I can do that by going to the nursing home and applaud for the benefit and drop $10 in the bucket so they can grease the wheel chair.
This was not a dressage show, but the top three after dressage duked it out to the end. One rail is just luck and each of them, the top 3, are in my opinion equal, but just one can take the crown.
But youth won again.
The AARP club from Tod to Buck, they just sucked, big time.
Eventing needs the Sandras or Michaels. Klimke, even that she is in rather good shape for her age, is showing that she has not anymore the killer instinct, AARP list. Was a quality ride, but not par with the kiddos.
US, Boyd as anchor, for the future and than put a team around him, 18 t0 30, eye candy, beside skills, please
[QUOTE=blackwly;7741063]
I have no solutions. But as a reasonably educated fan, I feel like I can point out some of the problems:
-
Trading Aces and Reggie were not fit enough. TA looked EXACTLY the same as he did when he quit at Rolex a year ago. Just completely ran out of steam. Boyd himself said that this was the year the horse needed to prove he could run a 4 star, which is why he sent him on to KY with Phillip. TA made it around Kentucky in great footing on a course where a bunch of horses made the time. It is now clear that this was not sufficient evidence he could make it around the WEG. He didn’t even make it close to the end. I’m a little frustrated by the comments that heap praise on the riders for making the right call and retiring. Both horses were flat out exhausted and couldn’t make it out of a trot. They would have been eliminated at the next fence if they hadn’t retired, and Buck and Phillip certainly know that.
-
The Germans are flat out dominate. They bring their horses (who have a lot of WB) up in the three stars, but absolutely excel in the championship environment. They were spectacular in both jumping phases across the board, and heaven knows they are great in dressage. What are they doing differently??? We need to figure that out, period. We had one clear SJ round today; they had 5. They are outstanding competitors.
-
The fact that neither our team nor Canada qualified for the OG is a big deal. Sending 4* combinations to the Pan Ams hurts us in the long run. It is a season lost for those combinations (contesting a 2* instead of going to Europe and gaining great experience) and does nothing for our pipeline of youngsters which is already hurting.
-
I’m with everyone else who things DOC has made improvements for the US team. That said, results matter, and these results are no better - arguably worse- then those in the CMP era. The coach is not the whole solution here.[/QUOTE]
DOC just got his ass kiked. Because he did not do what he did with the Canadians.
He took the same old same old and got wasted big time.
Desater, even Braziel managed to finish as a team.
Talking about a low point, how low can it get.
Not our week, again…
Many of these comments sound as if people think the US showing was a disaster.
As said, I think: Far from it. Given their experience level, they did GREAT. Some are a build for the future. The others are … not. Phillip did give TA a great school. Horse for the future.
Just by the way the horses were going and using their feet, it appeared to me that the footing was NOT the same all day. Morning rides got the worst of it, and Buck the worst of all. I think if his ride time had been 2 hours later he would have completed with clean jumping. Maybe Phillip as well. Pure speculation, though.
[QUOTE=Gnep;7741104]
Thanks Love.
But don’t ya think that fresh meat is needed.
Not just by reason of performance, but just by looks.
She is kinde cute, she fits those breeches quiet nicely, I would say.
Compare that with Jr, yaiks.
But honestly US eventing is old. Who wants to watch his father or grandfather compet and fail.
I can do that by going to the nursing home and applaud for the benefit and drop $10 in the bucket so they can grease the wheel chair.
This was not a dressage show, but the top three after dressage duked it out to the end. One rail is just luck and each of them, the top 3, are in my opinion equal, but just one can take the crown.
But youth won again.
The AARP club from Tod to Buck, they just sucked, big time.
Eventing needs the Sandras or Michaels. Klimke, even that she is in rather good shape for her age, is showing that she has not anymore the killer instinct, AARP list. Was a quality ride, but not par with the kiddos.
US, Boyd as anchor, for the future and than put a team around him, 18 t0 30, eye candy, beside skills, please[/QUOTE]
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Well I don’t need the eye candy, personally. Pick the right riders and that part should take care of itself - one way or another. The horses are really pretty to watch !!! 
The dressage established a close pack - the cross-country made the best of them even closer together, so no rails at all were available. That’s some hard-edge competition. 
Thought Jonelle was impressive to shoehorn herself up into that top tier. Will be watching for her in the future. Where is she based?
[QUOTE=Drvmb1ggl3;7741054]
Yes I can tell you. Go back and look at Badminton and Burghley top 10 finishers every year from 50’s through the 90’s and tell us what you find.
The ISH, or ‘Irish Half bred’ as it was called back then, was by far the most sought after horse.[/QUOTE]
But again Irish Bred can mean many different things in terms of actual blood. Some are imported warmbloods with varying amounts of blood ie Ricardo Z, Cavalier Royale etc
Others are Irish Draft with varying amounts of TB, some they don’t even know anything about the motherlines at all, and others end up being pretty much all TB once you look at the pedigree
For example the woman I worked for over there (jumper rider/breeder) routinely bred horses to stallions like Clinton, Luidam, Arko etc and all the offspring would be registered ISH.
I personally love them, I think they are often lovely, light, careful and I also think that something about the upbringing there can give them something special.
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/clover+hill
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=74074
http://kristinschmolze.net/breeding/ricardo-z/
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/diamond+lad
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/index.php?query_type=horse&h=VDL+RICOCHET&g=5&cellpadding=0&small_font=1&l=
http://www.morningside-stud.com/Condios.html
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/harlequin+du+carel
Just some varying examples from perusing the listed breeding on the start list.
[QUOTE=OverandOnward;7741128]
Many of these comments sound as if people think the US showing was a disaster.[/QUOTE]
‘Think’? How about ‘KNOW’. The scores say it all.
Since when and for what is WEG a schooling venue?
I fear you’ve gone around the bend looking for silver linings in a rubbish day in a rubbish era for the US eventing.
Jonelle has been getting impressive results at CCI**** for some years now, including her team bronze in London. Not exactly a newcomer. She’s based in the UK with her husband, Tim Price, who has a CCI**** win to his name.
A list of the top 10 full pedigrees of the WEG has been posted here:
[QUOTE=OverandOnward;7741128]
Many of these comments sound as if people think the US showing was a disaster.
As said, I think: Far from it. Given their experience level, they did GREAT. Some are a build for the future. The others are … not. Phillip did give TA a great school. Horse for the future.
Discuss:
[QUOTE=JER;7741155]
Since when and for what is WEG a schooling venue?[/QUOTE]
Next week we can do some armchair quarterbacking and compare the burghley results to the WEG and play shoulda, coulda. Should be interesting.
I think our riders need to compete in Europe more often. I think we get used to being the big fish in a small pond. We take the results we get competing in our intramural league and think represents world level results.
If you want to be the best you have to compete against the best.
I don’t know if I should laugh or cry.
O&O, what kind of mushrooms have you been eating?
We. got. killed. Anyway you look at it. You can make all the excuses you want – well, except for saying that TA got a good school at the worldeffingchampionships… Oh my. I guess I will laugh.
Thank you (whoever it was) for setting me straight on my “extra events” idea. I can see how unworkable it would be. I forgot about the qualifying up the levels. My bad. I was thinking too much like a h/j person. At least I was enthusiastic about trying to think outside the box. Does that count for anything?
But it seems like the best suggestion I can make is to send all our *** riders to England to train. (Just kidding, folks — well, only 95% kidding).
