I don’t think just competing in Europe for practice and to be around the best is really going to get us very far. A few people, maybe, but a solid team with plenty of back-up, not likely.
If we don’t figure out a way to establish basics in this country, then we aren’t going to have solid basics. That’s the foundation we need.
The politics here are creating a mess.
Of course, the following may not be significant at all but check out who the coach of the Brazilian team is: Nick Turner. I’m betting Snoopy knows who he is, and maybe many others.
Much as I appreciate Team O’Connor, I always thought the US should have scooped Nick to be coach. The man is flat out brilliant. As has been pointed out, the Brazilians finished a team and the US didn’t. I’m thinking they are on course to continue improving.
Some good thoughts here and some thoughts that sort of make me wince.
One thing I am very afraid of.
The Pan Ams being a two star but having such importance for Olympic qualification will turn into a flatout dressage show. Very sad because it really won’t be a three-day event. It will basically be four star dressage, then a cross-country school and jump school and the placings will be separated by tenths in the end.
Poops.
Hey they put what they thought would work on the team and it didn’t – what I’d like to know is what the depth was on the German side, if they had a lot of that type of rider/horse to pick from (Jung, Auffarth) and a deep bench there or just those four-five.
I think conditions were extreme and as extreme as they could get. Toddy, Phillip, Jock Paget with a stop, look at the riders who did not get around…that says a lot. It’s not age or fitness really I don’t think it was fitness. I think it was beyond fitness. I think the questions were extreme. I know everyone is talking about fitness but I think the obstacles required extraordinary effort. Those fishes at 30 - 31 were so ugly. The very best horses made it just barely. Mr. RE watched it with me who is a horse person but not an event person and he said they looked AWFUL, how could the riders pull on their mouths and kick them like that, it looked terrible to him and he is a 50-year race horse trainer who has seen it all. He said it was NOTHING like Fair Hill International which he does like to see each fall. And he has been there in the mud.
[QUOTE=Badger;7740031]
We are at a hotel in Caen, about 2-1/2 miles from the main arena. It’s a bit over an hour drive to the XC venue. Yesterday we left the hotel at 7am and were sitting by a XC jump at 9:40 waiting for the first horse to go at 10. We stopped at a bakery for pan au chocolate on the way in, plus a food truck after we entered the XC course and grabbed chicken baguettes to hold onto until lunch. Traffic added about 30 mins to our drive each way, and it was a hike to parking, but the XC course itself was super easy to negotiate with far less walking than Rolex, and parking was way better than Rolex WEG opening ceremonies (times 10!). The mud was way improved over Thurs: muddy soles but not much deeper if you used some caution where you stepped. Organizers finally got things right.[/QUOTE]
Bwahahaha. You are kidding me. Consider yourselves very very lucky because for us and everyone we talked to, it was a disaster of EPIC proportions. First, we sat in standstill traffic for two hours. We were turning our cars off and standing on the road.
Then when we got to the road where we’d turn off, it was closed and they were making people walk (this wasn’t the parking area, far far before that). It was miles with a good part uphill, my mother started to feel sick, she got very very pale and disoriented. A couple from SC managed to figure out a hidden side road and was driving by and picked her up. They were there to see sinead halprin and missed her ride completely because of the traffic. They had VIP parking but they wouldn’t let them through. None of the officials seemed to know where anything was, the police were very very nice though. When my mum started to feel sick, I had ran back to the car and pleaded with them to let me through and the police gave me an escort. There was plenty of parking, there was no reason for that road to be closed.
Other people we talked to the next day, were so stuck in traffic they bagged the whole thing - five xc tickets wasted. We ended up seeing about 5 horses go before we left because we were worried it was going to be an even bigger cluster on the way out. All the horses looked completely exhausted. And I don’t blame them, the footing the spectators were walking through was a sticky muddy mess (although I do realize the weather cannot be helped)
Lines for food were ridiculously long, by the time my husband got to the counter they were out of everything but diet coke. We hadn’t eaten anything all day. Wanted to get a t-shirt (why I don’t know … A memento of this awful day?). But they were out. There was no place to sit that we could see although we couldn’t walk too far because of the crowds and our exhaustion.
We are no strangers to intl competitions (Rolex, badminton, burghley, Aachen, WEG 2010) this was the worst by about 500%. All other competitions were wonderful experiences. Hopefully bromont will be better.
Not sure what point you are trying to make. That Irish breeders started outcrossing to continental stallions in the late 80s and early 90’s is hardly news.
The person I responded to made two claims.
Half Bred = is a colloquial term, not literal
HIS = Hunter Improvement Society
IDA = Irish Dept of Agriculture
Quote by retreadeventer:
what I’d like to know is what the depth was on the German side, if they had a lot of that type of rider/horse to pick from (Jung, Auffarth) and a deep bench there or just those four-five.
The German High Performance team, in addition to those from last weekend, includes Andreas Dibowski with a proven **** horse, Bettina Hoy, ditto, Kai-Steffen Meier, ditto. Three individuals, all with Championship experience, and medals as well as **** credits to their names (and horses). The B-team also includes people like former Team riders Anna Warnecke, Elmar Lesch and Kai Rüder. There is an incredible depth here, especially considering that several riders have more than one championship horse. Heck, Michael Jung could actually BE a team all by himself, riding Sam, Halunke and Rocana.
[QUOTE=frugalannie;7741289]
Of course, the following may not be significant at all but check out who the coach of the Brazilian team is: Nick Turner. I’m betting Snoopy knows who he is, and maybe many others.
Much as I appreciate Team O’Connor, I always thought the US should have scooped Nick to be coach. The man is flat out brilliant. As has been pointed out, the Brazilians finished a team and the US didn’t. I’m thinking they are on course to continue improving.[/QUOTE]
i thought NT was coaching the Irish team, apparently I am behind the times. DOC was a lock for US team coach even before CMP left. I don’t understand how the US passed up Leslie Law or even Andrew Hoy.
Nick used to train Brazil before taking over the job for Ireland from Ginny last year.
The Germans have a system from the getgo for riders. IIRC, riders are not allowed to show in German National competitions until they have a “license” from the FN. They are very organized, very structured, and very well funded.
The Brits have Pony Club, which is a real factor, as well as the BHS. They are also very well funded.
Pony Club here is not what it is in the UK; we have no equivalent of BHS; and, of course, we have little or no outside funding from our governments, state and federal. As a country, we probably wouldn’t put up with the German organization and structure.
There’s a thread on the Eventing Board talking about rides at NAYRC at Rolex Head of the Lake. The consensus seems to be that a rather large majority of the riders were not prepared for the difficulty of that obstacle.
Someone mentioned the basics, and it’s the basics that, IMO, we need to figure out how to improve.
Meshach, I read similar comments on the 2014 Altech Normandy FB page, one from a volunteer who could not get to the venue due to traffic and parking woes… had no food or water all day and then could not be picked up at the end of the day due again to traffic, etc.
Talking to my mother in France where she tries to follow as much as she can… not a peep about the problems… everything is a success…
wow…
People want refunds!! yeah, as if this will happen. First, they need WEG to reply to their emails… which they don’t! No reply either on the FB page… it is really telling.
Really crossing my fingers that Bromont is taking notes and will be swamped with comments/observations once they set up their FB page!!
The pedigrees certainly indicate that for this track you were best off with the blood up close. FWIW for the US horses Shamwari has a little more blood like influence than indicated as his granddam was “about” 3/4 trakehner -a different way to add blood sometimes.
[QUOTE=JER;7741155]
Since when and for what is WEG a schooling venue?[/QUOTE]
When the horse is new to that level of challenge. And fitness. Then it’s a school - and a good one to build for the future. Same with Lynn and Donner. Good investment for the future. I’m pleased.
Here’s Trading Ace’s FEI record. Super horse in US eventing. Retired at his only previous 4* in KY, was 28th last year at the Boekelo 3*, his only previous European event. I think he’s one of the best in the US, has great promise for the future. But he needs to get there in his own time.
https://data.fei.org/Horse/Performance.aspx?p=950A20A0D63D9BCFBFF9612C533F46F5
At first I was a little disappointed that Phillip didn’t finish out the course so the team would at least have a completion from that pair. But in hindsight I stand up and salute his decision not to ride into misery a horse that had given its very all. Given the level of training and preparation, Trading Aces performed magnificently over that course, with Phillip’s help all the way.
Phillip was right, it was time to finish while the horse could retain a good impression of the day. TA came off the course a better horse, I’m sure, having given all he had.
The difference is expectations - mine vs yours. If you expected results like those produced by the top 3 teams, yes you could absolutely call it a disaster. Personally I think those expectations are beyond the realm of reality. I think they set the US team up for failure. I think they inevitably set up another round of “disaster” calls that this team does NOT deserve.
I think the problem with many public perceptions of where the US is in eventing is setting expectations that set the team up for failure, not success. Success is defined in an unrealistic way, comparing our riders/horses to individuals and teams that aren’t comparable on their records.
That’s what I like about the Brazilian Model: Success is defined appropriate to that team and the individuals on it. The US certainly doesn’t have to use the same criteria, and doesn’t need to be taking all the long routes. But there was NOTHING that indicated most of the US team should be expected to turn in performances like the British or German team. On ANY 4* course, and particularly this one.
My own definition of success is based more on what I think it reasonable. I’m not looking for a silver lining in hindsight, at all. In many ways, as a team, they did BETTER than I expected ahead of time. IMO 
Shamwari was awesome and that pair was our anchor, rightly so. I thought Tate was a little off his game, but that happens on any team and the drop score fixes it. Of course Tate wasn’t on the team where I thought he belonged. But the team hasn’t been doing what I want them to do for years now. 
The rest? They were WONDERFUL given the task they were presented and what they brought forward to it (and in Buck’s case, how he was probably instructed to ride). I base that on what I saw, how they were riding, how the horses were running and jumping. Not the score. Given the competition and the course, it doesn’t really matter to me where they finished, except for Boyd and Sinead. And I can give Tate a pass on this one because he has more than made up for it elsewhere and he should have a team around him.
[QUOTE=BaroquePony;7741235]I don’t think just competing in Europe for practice and to be around the best is really going to get us very far. A few people, maybe, but a solid team with plenty of back-up, not likely.
If we don’t figure out a way to establish basics in this country, then we aren’t going to have solid basics. That’s the foundation we need.
The politics here are creating a mess.[/QUOTE]
amen to that
IMO team management can’t get its head up above the trees. There is a desperate need for outside input and fresh air. Politics rule, though.
[QUOTE=Maren;7741385]Quote by retreadeventer:
what I’d like to know is what the depth was on the German side, if they had a lot of that type of rider/horse to pick from (Jung, Auffarth) and a deep bench there or just those four-five.
The German High Performance team, in addition to those from last weekend, includes Andreas Dibowski with a proven **** horse, Bettina Hoy, ditto, Kai-Steffen Meier, ditto. Three individuals, all with Championship experience, and medals as well as **** credits to their names (and horses). The B-team also includes people like former Team riders Anna Warnecke, Elmar Lesch and Kai Rüder. There is an incredible depth here, especially considering that several riders have more than one championship horse. Heck, Michael Jung could actually BE a team all by himself, riding Sam, Halunke and Rocana.[/QUOTE]
^^^^^^ and I repeat ^^^^^^^^^
The British team is just as great (terrifying), record-wise. And the Aus, and NZ. Etc.
The US can’t send an equivalent team. We don’t have one to send.
The idea that the US team, as is, is going to kick butt on the perennial top teams is just a fantasy. Sometimes I wonder if Disney movies are too much a part of US rider/team/coach development - really. So many people carry this notion that if you work hard and try your best, you’ll overcome everything and get a gold medal. That’s many shovel-full’s short of a realistic game plan.
you betcha 
[QUOTE=Maren;7741162]
A list of the top 10 full pedigrees of the WEG has been posted here:
http://www.fontana-syndikat.de/edit_weg_busch2014.html[/QUOTE]
Very interesting. Thanks for the link!
If anything I think Trading Aces proved that he is not a potential team horse for the future. He’s lovely, and a great jumper and great on the flat, but he isn’t a true four star horse. Ditto for Reggie, unfortunately. They just ran out of gas. Yes they are nice horses who do well in good conditions but a team horse needs to be able to do well in ANY conditions.
Just ducking in for a moment to say that if a horse needs a school around a WEG course, it is not ready or not capable of being a team horse. It sucks that we had to find that out in a team environment. By the time a horse makes it to a team competition, it should be a solid 4 star horse. It should come out of the box with the bit between its teeth going “let me at this thing!” If the rider has to nurse it around*, it shouldn’t be there.
*Obviously, some nursing was necessary for a lot of good horses this weekend due to the footing, especially for our team of horses used to firm, hard going. I think TA was beyond that, though.
[QUOTE=OverandOnward;7741557]
When the horse is new to that level of challenge. And fitness. Then it’s a school - and a good one to build for the future. Same with Lynn and Donner. Good investment for the future. I’m pleased.
Here’s Trading Ace’s FEI record. Super horse in US eventing. Retired at his only previous 4* in KY, was 28th last year at the Boekelo 3*, his only previous European event. I think he’s one of the best in the US, has great promise for the future. But he needs to get there in his own time.
https://data.fei.org/Horse/Performance.aspx?p=950A20A0D63D9BCFBFF9612C533F46F5
At first I was a little disappointed that Phillip didn’t finish out the course so the team would at least have a completion from that pair. But in hindsight I stand up and salute his decision not to ride into misery a horse that had given its very all. Given the level of training and preparation, Trading Aces performed magnificently over that course, with Phillip’s help all the way.
Phillip was right, it was time to finish while the horse could retain a good impression of the day. TA came off the course a better horse, I’m sure, having given all he had.
The difference is expectations - mine vs yours. If you expected results like those produced by the top 3 teams, yes you could absolutely call it a disaster. Personally I think those expectations are beyond the realm of reality. I think they set the US team up for failure. I think they inevitably set up another round of “disaster” calls that this team does NOT deserve.
I think the problem with many public perceptions of where the US is in eventing is setting expectations that set the team up for failure, not success. Success is defined in an unrealistic way, comparing our riders/horses to individuals and teams that aren’t comparable on their records.
That’s what I like about the Brazilian Model: Success is defined appropriate to that team and the individuals on it. The US certainly doesn’t have to use the same criteria, and doesn’t need to be taking all the long routes. But there was NOTHING that indicated most of the US team should be expected to turn in performances like the British or German team. On ANY 4* course, and particularly this one.
My own definition of success is based more on what I think it reasonable. I’m not looking for a silver lining in hindsight, at all. In many ways, as a team, they did BETTER than I expected ahead of time. IMO
Shamwari was awesome and that pair was our anchor, rightly so. I thought Tate was a little off his game, but that happens on any team and the drop score fixes it. Of course Tate wasn’t on the team where I thought he belonged. But the team hasn’t been doing what I want them to do for years now.
The rest? They were WONDERFUL given the task they were presented and what they brought forward to it (and in Buck’s case, how he was probably instructed to ride). I base that on what I saw, how they were riding, how the horses were running and jumping. Not the score. Given the competition and the course, it doesn’t really matter to me where they finished, except for Boyd and Sinead. And I can give Tate a pass on this one because he has more than made up for it elsewhere and he should have a team around him.
amen to that
IMO team management can’t get its head up above the trees. There is a desperate need for outside input and fresh air. Politics rule, though.
^^^^^^ and I repeat ^^^^^^^^^
The British team is just as great (terrifying), record-wise. And the Aus, and NZ. Etc.
The US can’t send an equivalent team. We don’t have one to send.
The idea that the US team, as is, is going to kick butt on the perennial top teams is just a fantasy. Sometimes I wonder if Disney movies are too much a part of US rider/team/coach development - really. So many people carry this notion that if you work hard and try your best, you’ll overcome everything and get a gold medal. That’s many shovel-full’s short of a realistic game plan.
you betcha :D[/QUOTE]
:yes:
Just to remind y’all that the DUTCH!, the Dutch who have never won anything in eventing, got the bronze with no horse that had ever won a 4*; and their top horse finished 13th! at WEG.
If y’all don’t want to compare the US to Australia, New Zealand, Germany or GB, surely we can compare ourselves to the Dutch.
We had ONE horse of six who made it around without XC penalties. The Dutch did much better than that. And they only had 4 horses.
Actually, I NEVER said that an ISH could NOT be conditioned like a TB to run long format or testing conditions. What I said was that, given the same conditioning regimen, the TB would run an ISH into the ground.
That is not to say the ISH can’t be conditioned to do those same things, but that it takes MORE conditioning (trot sets, walk sets, hills, whatever) to achieve the same results. That means more pounding on the horse’s legs. And YES, some ISH simply CANNOT achieve the same fitness levels as the average TB regardless of their fitness because they have less TB blood and more ID blood. Trading Aces is the absolute PRIME example of that, having clearly run out of steam despite what is I’m sure was one of the most thorough conditioning schedule of the six pairs, considering the lingering questions people had prior to Rolex regarding his fitness levels. Surprise, an ISH with only approximately 35% TB blood!
And yes, you’re right in that I was mistaken regarding the TB, although there were certainly a fair share of pure Thoroughbreds in the winners of Badminton of whom I could actually determine their breeding. Most of the breeding of the winners was unrecorded, but did find lots of TBs…and lots of ISH. So I stand corrected. However, all of the ISH winners of which I could determine breeding seemed to have at least 50% TB breeding.
My original point was that the more the TB blood, the easier the horse is to condition. And also that yes, there does seem to be a cutoff on the percentage of ID blood a horse can have before it cannot do its job at this level in these conditions. What that level of ID blood is, I do not know, but obviously only 35% TB blood doesn’t seem to cut it. If you try to tell me that a 100% ID horse could get around that WEG course, well that would be ‘bull$hit’. I know very nice ID horses who need to be supremely well conditioned to get around a Training level courses; they aren’t going to cut it for Prelim, let alone WEG. The closer you get to the ID phenotype, the less they can handle.
And yes, I still believe that given the exact same conditioning schedule, a TB will outrun an ISH. The ID were bred to TB to add the endurance, to add the speed. A 100% TB in general will outlast a 75% TB/25% Draft, given the same conditioning schedule. Less TB blood = more conditioning to achieve the same fitness results. Those ISH hunters who hunt all day? I’m sure they are extremely fit.
And obviously there are always exceptions to the rules, I’m talking about in general. And overall, I am wondering if, moving forward, that the percentage of blood of the ISH in particular, and all of the horses in general becomes a factor in team selection.
That’s it. NOT a slam on ISH endurance…which is ultimately due to their infusion of TB blood.
I think the US is always going to have to work twice as hard in order to move up in the area in which it is behind. Here’s an analogy of sorts…
If the physics of Star Trek were real and I could get a key to the transporter and go anywhere and do anything, how would I use it?
If I wanted to go somewhere for a nice meal, or just simply a good loaf of bread, I’d go to France.
If I wanted a hand knit wool sweater, I’d go to the UK.
If I wanted a well engineered car, I’d go to Germany.
The list could go on, but people probably get the idea. When things are part of your culture, people gravitate to you for those things, it’s easier to develop new talent, and to become even better at those things.
As someone who comes from a family half of which is German, I can attest to the fact that certain things are part of the culture. They tend to have a very systematic, organized, and careful way of doing things. When it comes to horses, they have had strict breeding programs for a very long time. There are also very strict rules for who can and can’t teach. You don’t just hang out a shingle and call yourself a trainer. You can’t just walk into any show at any level and just do it. There are rules that govern such things as well.
I firmly believe that Americans don’t want to be told what they can and cannot do. Peter Wylde said a while ago in an article that he “wants to speak out as he earns [his] stripes in this industry.” The comment he made in the article (I believe it might have been Practical Horseman) is that the US is “mired in a see and be seen” environment and that the “Europeans are better than we are at a very young age”. Another article in Practical Horseman around the same time also commented that “Americans don’t want to be told what they can and can’t breed”. Things may have changed since then, as there are many good breeders now, but major changes aren’t going to happen overnight.
Sine we don’t have certain things engrained in our culture, I believe that the US will need to work twice as hard to catch up and play on the same level with the Germans.
Thank you Maren! Good information! Ah ha. As I thought – many to pick from. And all good, very good, even excellent.
[QUOTE=Maren;7741385]
Quote by retreadeventer:
what I’d like to know is what the depth was on the German side, if they had a lot of that type of rider/horse to pick from (Jung, Auffarth) and a deep bench there or just those four-five.
The German High Performance team, in addition to those from last weekend, includes Andreas Dibowski with a proven **** horse, Bettina Hoy, ditto, Kai-Steffen Meier, ditto. Three individuals, all with Championship experience, and medals as well as **** credits to their names (and horses). The B-team also includes people like former Team riders Anna Warnecke, Elmar Lesch and Kai Rüder. There is an incredible depth here, especially considering that several riders have more than one championship horse. Heck, Michael Jung could actually BE a team all by himself, riding Sam, Halunke and Rocana.[/QUOTE]
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