Cross Country

[prosefullstop]

[QUOTE=SnicklefritzG;7741020]
If riders from the US spent more time hunting and drinking, their X-C scores would likely improve.[/QUOTE]

There’s probably a partial truth to this. I’m from England, and am what would be considered a very low-level rider. I’ve never owned a horse, leased a bit as a teenager, and have only done a handful of competitions, and yet, out hacking either on loan ponies or on hacks through trekking centres, I’ve jumped ditches, done steep banks, jumped a myriad of fallen trees and stone walls, galloped over umpteen stubble fields etc. I suspect now being based in CT H/J land has much to do with this, but a US rider of comparable experience has probably only left the ring a few times, or walked/trotted through the woods. There’s a mindset difference; the chief emphasis of the US riders I’ve met is safety/correctness, while daring is the chief concern of the English rider. One need only look at the difference between UK and US hunter classes.

[Gnep]

[QUOTE=OverandOnward;7741557]
When the horse is new to that level of challenge. And fitness. Then it’s a school - and a good one to build for the future. Same with Lynn and Donner. Good investment for the future. I’m pleased.

Here’s Trading Ace’s FEI record. Super horse in US eventing. Retired at his only previous 4* in KY, was 28th last year at the Boekelo 3*, his only previous European event. I think he’s one of the best in the US, has great promise for the future. But he needs to get there in his own time.
https://data.fei.org/Horse/Performance.aspx?p=950A20A0D63D9BCFBFF9612C533F46F5

At first I was a little disappointed that Phillip didn’t finish out the course so the team would at least have a completion from that pair. But in hindsight I stand up and salute his decision not to ride into misery a horse that had given its very all. Given the level of training and preparation, Trading Aces performed magnificently over that course, with Phillip’s help all the way.

Phillip was right, it was time to finish while the horse could retain a good impression of the day. TA came off the course a better horse, I’m sure, having given all he had.

The difference is expectations - mine vs yours. If you expected results like those produced by the top 3 teams, yes you could absolutely call it a disaster. Personally I think those expectations are beyond the realm of reality. I think they set the US team up for failure. I think they inevitably set up another round of “disaster” calls that this team does NOT deserve.

I think the problem with many public perceptions of where the US is in eventing is setting expectations that set the team up for failure, not success. Success is defined in an unrealistic way, comparing our riders/horses to individuals and teams that aren’t comparable on their records.

That’s what I like about the Brazilian Model: Success is defined appropriate to that team and the individuals on it. The US certainly doesn’t have to use the same criteria, and doesn’t need to be taking all the long routes. But there was NOTHING that indicated most of the US team should be expected to turn in performances like the British or German team. On ANY 4* course, and particularly this one.

My own definition of success is based more on what I think it reasonable. I’m not looking for a silver lining in hindsight, at all. In many ways, as a team, they did BETTER than I expected ahead of time. IMO

Shamwari was awesome and that pair was our anchor, rightly so. I thought Tate was a little off his game, but that happens on any team and the drop score fixes it. Of course Tate wasn’t on the team where I thought he belonged. But the team hasn’t been doing what I want them to do for years now.

The rest? They were WONDERFUL given the task they were presented and what they brought forward to it (and in Buck’s case, how he was probably instructed to ride). I base that on what I saw, how they were riding, how the horses were running and jumping. Not the score. Given the competition and the course, it doesn’t really matter to me where they finished, except for Boyd and Sinead. And I can give Tate a pass on this one because he has more than made up for it elsewhere and he should have a team around him.

amen to that

IMO team management can’t get its head up above the trees. There is a desperate need for outside input and fresh air. Politics rule, though.

^^^^^^ and I repeat ^^^^^^^^^

The British team is just as great (terrifying), record-wise. And the Aus, and NZ. Etc.

The US can’t send an equivalent team. We don’t have one to send.

The idea that the US team, as is, is going to kick butt on the perennial top teams is just a fantasy. Sometimes I wonder if Disney movies are too much a part of US rider/team/coach development - really. So many people carry this notion that if you work hard and try your best, you’ll overcome everything and get a gold medal. That’s many shovel-full’s short of a realistic game plan.

you betcha :D[/QUOTE]

At that level at the WEG, you better bring a horse that can do it, or stay home.
Look at the German Team, how may 4* do they have under their belt.
The top 2 horses maybe 1 or 2. But when it counts, they are super fit and do the job.
Has Klimke’s horse done a 4 star before ? Maybe Luh, despite the problems, she nursed her home, just time and had enough left in tank to do a perfect stadium.
MJ had his second string horse, maybe one 4 star under the belt and did one of the fasted rides. Same for the Brits and the Netherlands.
Superbly fit, horse and riders and with the attitude to win and the skills to do that.

The US has just one rider that can break into the top ten, at international championships.
He is an import so to speak, cut his teath abroad.

But the real joke about 2014, The Tem had the all guys from 2010 on it except the Lady and DOC whooped them with his young Canadian Team and it was a solid whooping on home turf, not to forget.
Than he shows up with the same Team, except the Lady and gets his a… kicked big time.

Lets go schooling,
YAIKS

[Gnep]

[QUOTE=retreadeventer;7742068]
Thank you Maren! Good information! Ah ha. As I thought – many to pick from. And all good, very good, even excellent.[/QUOTE]

Those are just the seniors, the old farts. Take a look at the teens at 2 and 3 star level. The next MJs.
Same in GB or France
The depth of talent, not just horses, riders, is amazing. If one of the old hands slips, he or she, will get dumped, eaten alive, by the new comers.
The established know that, they have seen MJ and A take over, it keeps them very much on their towes and the next twens are pushing in their doors.

[Danny1234]

Actually, they isn’t much depth concerning elite riders in Germany. :o Take those six from WEG, plus Hoy and Dibowski yes, and Kai Rüder – maybe, wait for Burghley, that pair is unproven yet. Anna Warnecke’s Twinkle Bee is too old to be an option for any championship, and so is Meier’s Karascada, Lesch’s horse is generally considered not to have enough scope, and frankly, there are those who think nor does the rider. Jung may have 3 rides to chose from, maybe 4, but at the moment, there are just 9 riders, maximum.

[Danny1234]

And the youngsters, the teens at 2 or 3 star level? Well. It is true, German horses don’t run a lot of 4 stars. And, there aren’t many riders who do or ever did. Because they have to take their time, they have to wait. Each year I see so many young American combinations, obviously just giving it a shot at Rolex, and after that most of them never turn up there or anywhere again. Jung and Bio Sam both did their first 4 star ever at Luhmühlen 2009, they won. Auffarth and OL did their first in 2011, they finished second. They were ready then, both of them, both combinations. Right, those like Julia Krajewski and young Romeike have multiple 3 stars under their belt, and they wanted to do Luhmühlen CCI4 this year, and they were talked out of it or simply not allowed to, by the coaches. But, expect to see them next year. No use in frustrating or burning young riders, nor horses, they just aren’t that many in Germany.

However, if it really wasn’t a frustrating experience for I. Klimkes WEG-ride, that is yet to see, imho… And there’s not everything running just perfect in the German system, e.g. the federation and coaches have basically the same issues between them and Niklas Bschorer, who chooses to ride in the UK and not base himself at Warendorf - much like Jung never wanted to either.

[BaroquePony]

Give us a couple more years and we’ll have a team on rescue horses with barefoot trimmers and carrot sticks.

[Danny1234]

[QUOTE=Gnep;7740591]

So what skills do the European riders have, that the North Americans are missing.[/QUOTE]

They are used to ride on bad ground. Sure, at Luhmühlen and Aachen it’s mostly perfect, but riders and horses both grow up on bad ground. Ever seen a typical 2 star course in Germany? Well, there’s a reason why there aren’t many international events in Germany. No foreign riders want to ride there - and that’s homecountry of two WEG Team titles, two Olympic Team titles, and multiple individual medails within the last 8 years, yes. Also riding on small fields, there just aren’t any other grounds, or parks, or farmland, so riding twisting and turning courses does come quite naturally for them, yes.

Also, not sure if that has anything to with it, but just one of my pet themes - have US riders always gone to Florida for the winter, or did that just come up more or less within the last 10-12 years…?

[Danny1234]

And. The support of a psychologist. The German team uses one ever since 2003. And no rider has ever talked about their awful childhood there, I’m sure, just some advice and simple strategies to help riders relax and focus. Does the US-Team use one? If not, go get one! I truly feel it’s absolutely incredible how everybody seems to just have plotted on after Ben Winters death, also with all the flack the sport got as a consequence. And that’s not just the elite rides, she - the psychologist - works with everyone who wears a red German team jacket basically, i.e. coaches, juniors, all the way down to the Pony riders team.

[BaroquePony]

I don’t think there is any shortage of bad ground in America.

[nzrider]

Don’t know about the North Americans but the NZ riders have pretty much always said if you want to be the best you have to compete against the best, all the time at every level. So that includes young horses, 1* and 2* level etc. Which is why since the 80s the top NZ riders have based themselves in the UK. They aren’t the best when they make the move there and those that don’t have the courage and commitment to shift themselves halfway around the world and commit to it never seem to quite make it. Various riders have tried from here in NZ at one stage or another but they always seem to look good on paper and not quite deliver. So much so that the entire high performance program is now based in the UK and there is a steady truckle of riders in their early 20s giving up everything else they have to make a go at it.

And isn’t that what the UK based North American riders are saying now too? From what I read on the Pro blog, eventing nation etc, that riding, watching and compering with the best day in day out is why they are there and they think is how they will get good enough to beat the best.

Have to admit though I don’t think it’s that good for eventing back here in a way, the top level classes are often just riders who have just moved up for the first time or those who don’t have the hunger to get to the top for r whatever reason. Which imo means that the competitive environment here is not conducive to producing great riders as opposed to good riders. Anyway, my thoughts on what the UK and Europe have the everyone else doesn’t

[JER]

[QUOTE=OverandOnward;7741557]

The difference is expectations - mine vs yours. If you expected results like those produced by the top 3 teams, yes you could absolutely call it a disaster. [/QUOTE]

My expectations for the US contingent named for WEG ran more or less identical to what actually happened.

My expectations for USET eventing are higher than that. After all, this is a program that paid $250K in annual salary to the failed former coach Capt. Mark Phillips (his program was an undisputed failure by its end) and probably promised a similar compensation package for the current coach, who was selected through a vetting process that some saw as thorough. I don’t know how much the coaches get paid for some of the nations that got a team around WEG, but I bet it’s a whole lot less than the US coach. It’s not like Americans are inherently more expensive to coach.

Same goes for the USET program, with its funded trips abroad and various rider grants. What are we getting for that money?

@Gnep;7742221

At that level at the WEG, you better bring a horse that can do it, or stay home.

Gnep gets it. But, puzzlingly, this appears to be a minority viewpoint on this forum.

Maybe Americans are okay with failure and repeat failure. Nothing wrong with that, but still, no need to make excuses.

[Maren]

Everything Dannie1234 said, with a bit different perspctive on the particulars of the upcoming German young riders.
I’m taking US event folks to the Bundeschampionat this week, actually tomorrow. 4 of the 6 German horses came up through that “system”, plus Lion after that. These young horse programs go a huge way towards buidling an increadible base. The US is getting one established, hence also the trip to the BuCha with people that are involved in the YEH program. YOu have to see it to understand the difference. That doesn’t make it necessarily better, just different, and different things work sometimes.

[BaroquePony]

Posted by JER:

[QUOTE]Quote Originally Posted by Gnep:

At that level at the WEG, you better bring a horse that can do it, or stay home.

Gnep gets it. But, puzzlingly, this appears to be a minority viewpoint on this forum.

Maybe Americans are okay with failure and repeat failure. Nothing wrong with that, but still, no need to make excuses.[/QUOTE]

I don’t necessarily think that Gnep is the only one that gets this. I do think that some people, including myself, are so frustrated with some of the attitude involving the entire USEF ‘system’ and the attitude of a lot of the ‘horse industry’ in this country right now that they just don’t know where to start, or want to engage in some of the behind the scenes nastiness that ensues.

[SnicklefritzG]

[QUOTE=BaroquePony;7742531]
I don’t necessarily think that Gnep is the only one that gets this. I do think that some people, including myself, are so frustrated with some of the attitude involving the entire USEF ‘system’ and the attitude of a lot of the ‘horse industry’ in this country right now that they just don’t know where to start, or want to engage in some of the behind the scenes nastiness that ensues.[/QUOTE]

Yes, there are a lot of people who are frustrated. Look at how many times Sinead has been left off the team, yet has had better results than some people on the team. If this happens once you can try to ignore it, but when it happens multiple times then one begins to wonder about politics somewhere.

I have a long time business relationship with someone who had a horse who was under consideration for the team. I got to hear first hand about the politics and the sense of entitlement amongst the people running the team. Based on that, I’m not surprised that the US is doing poorly in some equestrian sports compared with other countries.

[Jealoushe]

[QUOTE=SnicklefritzG;7742579]

I have a long time business relationship with someone who had a horse who was under consideration for the team. I got to hear first hand about the politics and the sense of entitlement amongst the people running the team. Based on that, I’m not surprised that the US is doing poorly in some equestrian sports compared with other countries.[/QUOTE]

Yepp…you look at the UK team and sometimes riders are left off that you think are a shoe in - for an up and coming rider who has proved they deserve to be on the team. The US seems to rather watch that rider for 3 or 4 years and suck the life out of them - holding them back from competing at other 4*s to save the horse for what may never come. The same riders are chosen time and time again.

I feel the Canadians are the same way - same riders getting the funding, same riders getting chosen. Horses being bought by EC for some riders yet I can think of a handful of young Canadian riders that if given the horse - could go and compete and win, riders who have shown they can win at an international competition and have experience riding on teams.

The team choices and support is so political -it is really holding back our sport.

[OverandOnward]

[QUOTE=Danny1234;7742300]
Actually, they isn’t much depth concerning elite riders in Germany. :o … there are just 9 riders, maximum.[/QUOTE]

Or in other words: Germany could send 3 elite teams of 3 riders each to WEG.

They aren’t the only country who could send more than one team who are realistically capable of medaling. I’ve been saying this for awhile now - if the US team wants to be on that podium, we have GOT to get some of those people who aren’t making the German and British teams to switch their citizenship to the USA. I was after Nicola Wilson for years, but dang she’s on the team now at last. I guess the other riders need to start now to get that citizenship change in time for Rio? How did Boyd get it done in time?

Because see, that’s [fill in the blank] more elite riders than the USA has ready to show WFP and Jung a thing or two. (The answer is: a number close to 9.)

And in some cases, we have a rider that may be more or less ready enough … but that rider hasn’t got an Opgun Luovo or Chilli Morning under the saddle.

@JER;7742344

Maybe Americans are okay with failure and repeat failure. Nothing wrong with that, but still, no need to make excuses.

What excuses? They came. They rode. No excuses to make.

What failure? That’s a level of unrealistic pressure that is the path to a shorter and less happy life.

Once again: The Brazilian Model. Brazil doesn’t go to win medals. They give themselves the opportunity to come home happy without medals. That’s a winning attitude, even if it isn’t a wall full of medals.

At this point in time, that’s where we are, too - acceptance helps.

At this moment in time … The ‘Medal Or Die’ approach is not a healthy view of the US team, imo. I was madly frustrated with the decisions made before the horses ever went up the centerline at the Olympics in Hong Kong and London - if we had any chance at a medal, is was thrown out the window before the event even started. Gina’s silver looks more significant all the time.

Stopped caring. Time to put feet up on the tack trunk, relax and enjoy, like watching the mediocre hometown baseball team. “Oh they got through another combination, yay! Pass the beer and peanuts.” This is much better. I DO get it. Better than some, maybe. I’m going to enjoy my time here on earth, not angst again and again over something I can’t change. Top 'er up, will you. <hic>

We don’t want to stay home. We want to go to WEG’s. We want to be an Eventing Nation that goes to WEG’s and Olympics. So we go. We can tailgate, cheer on our riders whatever happens, keep smiling and drink lots. Lots. :winkgrin:

That’s not the way to go to WEG, you say? It’s the world championship and we should go to mow down all comers? Well, that ain’t goin to happen. So as long as they keep letting us in, we might as well tote along the lawn chairs and picnic baskets.

The problem is that (at this point in time) we are on a par with a mid-rank entry at Rolex KY, who should be thrilled to go home with the participation plaque, but who is kicking and screaming that we didn’t get a medal. WAAHH !!! Just sayin.

We had two (2) respectable chances at an individual medal - but not more than respectable. Because look at who medaled !!! And the Top 5 !!! Our guy and gal did credibly, although one didn’t have the best day on XC. One of em is actually from the US.

Just imo. It really is easier this way.

[BaroquePony]

God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; courage to change the things I can; and wisdom to know the difference.

:lol:

[BaroquePony]

I don’t necessarily think it is really a totally lost cause … but I do think there needs to be a completely different approach.

[SnicklefritzG]

I think every rider from the US did the best they could under the circumstances.

I don’t agree with the way the selectors have handled things nor the way DOC has been running the program. there’s where a big part of the problem is.

[QUOTE=OverandOnward;7743155]
Or in other words: Germany could send 3 elite teams of 3 riders each to WEG.

They aren’t the only country who could send more than one team who are realistically capable of medaling. I’ve been saying this for awhile now - if the US team wants to be on that podium, we have GOT to get some of those people who aren’t making the German and British teams to switch their citizenship to the USA. I was after Nicola Wilson for years, but dang she’s on the team now at last. I guess the other riders need to start now to get that citizenship change in time for Rio? How did Boyd get it done in time?

Because see, that’s [fill in the blank] more elite riders than the USA has ready to show WFP and Jung a thing or two. (The answer is: a number close to 9.)

And in some cases, we have a rider that may be more or less ready enough … but that rider hasn’t got an Opgun Luovo or Chilli Morning under the saddle.

What excuses? They came. They rode. No excuses to make.

What failure? That’s a level of unrealistic pressure that is the path to a shorter and less happy life.

Once again: The Brazilian Model. Brazil doesn’t go to win medals. They give themselves the opportunity to come home happy without medals. That’s a winning attitude, even if it isn’t a wall full of medals.

At this point in time, that’s where we are, too - acceptance helps.

At this moment in time … The ‘Medal Or Die’ approach is not a healthy view of the US team, imo. I was madly frustrated with the decisions made before the horses ever went up the centerline at the Olympics in Hong Kong and London - if we had any chance at a medal, is was thrown out the window before the event even started. Gina’s silver looks more significant all the time.

Stopped caring. Time to put feet up on the tack trunk, relax and enjoy, like watching the mediocre hometown baseball team. “Oh they got through another combination, yay! Pass the beer and peanuts.” This is much better. I DO get it. Better than some, maybe. I’m going to enjoy my time here on earth, not angst again and again over something I can’t change. Top 'er up, will you. <hic>

We don’t want to stay home. We want to go to WEG’s. We want to be an Eventing Nation that goes to WEG’s and Olympics. So we go. We can tailgate, cheer on our riders whatever happens, keep smiling and drink lots. Lots. :winkgrin:

That’s not the way to go to WEG, you say? It’s the world championship and we should go to mow down all comers? Well, that ain’t goin to happen. So as long as they keep letting us in, we might as well tote along the lawn chairs and picnic baskets.

The problem is that (at this point in time) we are on a par with a mid-rank entry at Rolex KY, who should be thrilled to go home with the participation plaque, but who is kicking and screaming that we didn’t get a medal. WAAHH !!! Just sayin.

We had two (2) respectable chances at an individual medal - but not more than respectable. Because look at who medaled !!! And the Top 5 !!! Our guy and gal did credibly, although one didn’t have the best day on XC. One of em is actually from the US.

Just imo. It really is easier this way.[/QUOTE]

[snoopy]

Here is the thing…We are not privy to the terms of DOC’s contract with regards to performance so calling for his head is really not realistic. He is only two years in to a VERY broken system. I know it is easy to say “ANOTHER epic fail” when we take into account the last rotation of the CMP years. I think this is unfair on DOC and the system trying to be implemented. I just do not think we should throw the baby out with the bathwater…just yet.

We can look to Canada’s result at WEG in 2010 as a triumph in his system and as a well won medal or a medal that the teams ahead of them lost. It is all perspective. We can look a the Canadian results in the OG’s two years later as a fail or some bad luck.

David, again, inherited a pretty dire system in Canada and did not have much time to really get his vision and system on solid ground.

Again, I think to lump him in as just a continuation of the CMP program is a bit unfair. We should give him his chance…we have no choice.

The riders themselves should be applauded for their effort.