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Cross Country

Archives World Cup Las Vegas -- 2015
#363

I have major issues with him leaving Sinead off the team…

What kind of “vision” holds back a rider like her?

[QUOTE=snoopy;7743356]
Here is the thing…We are not privy to the terms of DOC’s contract with regards to performance so calling for his head is really not realistic. He is only two years in to a VERY broken system. I know it is easy to say “ANOTHER epic fail” when we take into account the last rotation of the CMP years. I think this is unfair on DOC and the system trying to be implemented. I just do not think we should throw the baby out with the bathwater…just yet.

We can look to Canada’s result at WEG in 2010 as a triumph in his system and as a well won medal or a medal that the teams ahead of them lost. It is all perspective. We can look a the Canadian results in the OG’s two years later as a fail or some bad luck.

David, again, inherited a pretty dire system in Canada and did not have much time to really get his vision and system on solid ground.

Again, I think to lump him in as just a continuation of the CMP program is a bit unfair. We should give him his chance…we have no choice.

The riders themselves should be applauded for their effort.[/QUOTE]

#364

OK. Selection decisions are not only an “issue” with the USA. There are many countries who have been in a position to to say “should have, could have would have”. The difference is that many of those teams still come up with the goods when seemingly shoe in combinations are left off the team. The USA is not in that position to really “choose”…yet.

So, who shall we blame?

Shall we blame the riders? After all, do you honestly think they went lout there not caring about performance and what was on the line?

Shall we blame the selectors? After all, do you honestly think they just pulled names from a hat and went with those picked? They have a job to do.

Shall we blame David? After all, he is not someone solely responsible for the day to day training of those qualified for selection. We do not have a national training centre that oversees ALL training.

It would appear that everyone qualified is over in europe whether named to the WEG team or contesting burghley and blenheim.

I was not in the room when the selectors made their decisions. There must have been some strategy for those they selected.

#365

A few comments/opinions:

  1. as I said before I really don’t care about the team concept. Eventing is an individual sport not a team sport. I really don’t care about the team medals. I care about individuals. Some of our individuals had some decent results and one good result. We really are a long way behind the top five countries in the world.

  2. As long as you have a selection committee you are going to having politics and controversy. I would rather see a published formula for ranking riders/horses and then take the top six on that list.

  3. I don’t want us to recruit from other countries. I have no interest in rooting for imports or hired guns. I may like to watch them ride but hiring people for the team will sour the team concept that much more.

  4. Other than being a political intermediary the coach is highly overrated when it comes to prepping a team. A bad coach can really hurt but a good one is a neutral. All these riders are supposed to be top pros and should be able to access anyone they need for help/training. If they can’t do that then they are not a top pro. Also, they should know what is best for their horse when it comes to training, vets and farriers. Why would you want to change what has made you successful?

  5. If you really want to be a top pro then you need to make the commitment and the investment. That means getting overseas to compete with the best. If you are waiting on grants for one off competitions then you are not a top pro. Being a top pro means getting you operation funded through your own efforts.

#366

[QUOTE=FitToBeTied;7743411]
A few comments/opinions:
5) If you really want to be a top pro then you need to make the commitment and the investment. That means getting overseas to compete with the best. If you are waiting on grants for one off competitions then you are not a top pro. Being a top pro means getting you operation funded through your own efforts.[/QUOTE]

How many of them can leave a business behind to go off to Europe?
Edited to add the following:

Leaving a business behind to spend significant time competing in Europe is not a trivial matter. It would l ikely include some (if not all) of the following:

  1. An extremely good assistant trainer: someone who can take over the rides and teaching while you are away.

  2. Deep pocket sponsors: someone who is finding good horses for you or has in the past in order to help you develop and make a name for yourself so you can attract even more clients and actually BE in a position where you have a chance to do well.

  3. An understanding SO: if you are in a relationship, someone who understands and supports you going overseas for extended periods of time.

  4. A strong business model: you would need to be established enough in your career so that your business doesn’t fall apart when you are gone. Either that or be independently wealthy. Or pehaps young enough that you don’t have a large, well established business that you are leaving behind. I can think of at least one US rider in this position (young and moved overseas)

#367

I don’t think going to Europe is the best solution. Maybe for a small tour, but not for the long term foundation we need to develop a strong horse culture.

I do think hiring some Europeans to come over here and give some serious clinics is a solution. We have had a good foundation planted here by those Europeans that took the time to work with us before.

We have done our best to ruin that foundation.

#368

[QUOTE=BaroquePony;7743457]
I don’t think going to Europe is the best solution. Maybe for a small tour, but not for the long term foundation we need to develop a strong horse culture.

I do think hiring some Europeans to come over here and give some serious clinics is a solution. We have had a good foundation planted here by those Europeans that took the time to work with us before.

We have done our best to ruin that foundation.[/QUOTE]

What do you think has ruined it?

#369

[QUOTE=BaroquePony;7743457]
I don’t think going to Europe is the best solution. Maybe for a small tour, but not for the long term foundation we need to develop a strong horse culture. [/QUOTE]

You are not going to develop a horse culture in this country. Equestrian activities don’t even rise to the level of a niche sport here. I looked at 2009 report from the US Census bureau of the top 40 leisure activities and sports by participants in the US. Equestrian is not even on the list.

From hunting and eventing, I know a lot of riders with kids. I’d say that less than 50% of their kids even ride at all. It is a small group and getting smaller all the time.

#370

I’m trying to figure out how to put it into the simplest form here …

A lack of honesty and integrity for the sport, the horses and the riders … at the very core.

One way or another these things have been eroded and given way to some pretty nasty behavior, especially behind people’s backs, so to speak … and in other ways, too.

All that being said, the eventing culture is a subset of the horse culture (industry) which in turn is a subset of the American Culture, which is a mess at this time in history if you believe in a somewhat democratic process.

#371

[QUOTE=FitToBeTied;7743537]
You are not going to develop a horse culture in this country. Equestrian activities don’t even rise to the level of a niche sport here. I looked at 2009 report from the US Census bureau of the top 40 leisure activities and sports by participants in the US. Equestrian is not even on the list.

From hunting and eventing, I know a lot of riders with kids. I’d say that less than 50% of their kids even ride at all. It is a small group and getting smaller all the time.[/QUOTE]

Look at how expensive it is to show, progress as a rider, or bring along young horses in this country. There have been threads on COTH about how it is so much easier and less expensive to do it in europe.

If the competitive group is getting smaller it is only because there are fewer people with the disposable income to pursue this as a hobby or those willing to spend the money. Come on, when you have to own several horses with certain BNT’s in order to achieve “good client” status as a junior, how easily are you going to move up and progress? I think you either have to be really rich or really talented and willing to work your @$$ off.

#372

Really?

http://www.doubledonut.com/2006/08/14/top-25-most-popular-sportsrecreational-activities-in-the-us

“Sport/Activity
Bowling – 53.5 million
Treadmill Exercise – 48.0 million
Stretching – 42.3 million
Freshwater Fishing – 42.1 million
Tent Camping – 38.6 million
Horseback Riding – 38.0 million
Running/Jogging – 37.8 million
Overnight Hiking – 36.6 million
Fitness Walking – 36.3 million
Billiards/Pool – 35.2 million
Basketball – 32.0 million
Hand Weights – 31.4 million
Weight/Resistance Machines – 29.0 million
Dumbells – 28.4 million
Golf – 25.7 million
Calisthenics – 24.9 million
Barbells – 23.0 million
Darts – 18.8 million
Tennis – 18.3 million
RV Camping – 18.2 million
Hunting (Shotgun/Rifle) – 18.0 million
Elliptical Motion Trainer – 16.7 million
Abdominal Machine/ Exercise – 16.5 million
Inline Skating – 16.5 million
Outdoor Soccer – 15.8 million
Other prominent sports located outside the top 25 sports/activities are: fitness swimming (14.6 million), ice skating (14.6 million), touch football (14.1 million), table tennis (14.1 million), slow-pitch softball (12.9 million), skateboarding (11.4 million), paintball (10.4 million), Pilates Training (10.4 million), baseball (10.3 million), water skiing (7.3 million), tackle football (5.8 million), racquetball (4.9 million), fast-pitch softball (3.5 million), and surfing (2.7 million).”

#373

I think the numbers are shaky because you are telling me that there are more people riding horses in this country than playing basketball. I don’t think so. Any idea how many recreational basketball leagues there are in this country or just the number that play pick-up. Or that there are more people riding than playing softball? According to what you posted bowling is the most popular sport in the country? Have seen how many bowling alley’s have closed in the last few years? According to Bloomberg Financial the number of bowling alleys has dropped 25% in the last 15 years and there are only about 4,000 in the country.

Despite that, if you think that equestrian is the sixth most popular sport in the country I think you need to do a reality check.

#374

I doubt it is 6th … I doubt the stats are very good, actually, but judging by how many backyard horses I see … I am somewhat amazed at the numbers.

#375

[QUOTE=snoopy;7743356]
Here is the thing…We are not privy to the terms of DOC’s contract with regards to performance so calling for his head is really not realistic. He is only two years in to a VERY broken system. I know it is easy to say “ANOTHER epic fail” when we take into account the last rotation of the CMP years. I think this is unfair on DOC and the system trying to be implemented. I just do not think we should throw the baby out with the bathwater…just yet.[/QUOTE]

I’m not sure where you’re getting the baby and bathwater thing. I haven’t seen any calls for DOC’s head.

That said, a national team coach is still responsible for the results of a national team. Failing to finish a team at a major championships is a failure in any sense of the word. Note that I said ‘failing to finish’, not ‘failing to podium’. Not scoring well enough is one thing; not getting a real score is another.

It may well have been a lucky one-off. Canada didn’t leave anyone at home for WEG 2010 and those results were never replicated, at London 2012 or at any other major venue (like Badminton).

Agreed, and also another reason why it may have been a lucky one-off.

I mentioned CMP only in the context of the ongoing long run of non-results for the US team, not as a continuation of the program.

:slight_smile:

Which leads me to ask the following questions: At what point do we hold a coach responsible for results? At what point do we expect a coach to take responsibility for the results of his/her team/athletes?

This has been on my mind lately, in no small part because I just returned from the Youth Olympic Games in Nanjing, where, as modern pentathlon coach for Canada, I was living and working among coaches and young elite athletes in almost all of the Olympic sports. Here are two things I learned: results do matter, and in programs where funding is dependent on results, results really really do matter.

#376

[QUOTE=SnicklefritzG;7743428]
How many of them can leave a business behind to go off to Europe?
Edited to add the following:

Leaving a business behind to spend significant time competing in Europe is not a trivial matter. It would l ikely include some (if not all) of the following:

  1. An extremely good assistant trainer: someone who can take over the rides and teaching while you are away.

  2. Deep pocket sponsors: someone who is finding good horses for you or has in the past in order to help you develop and make a name for yourself so you can attract even more clients and actually BE in a position where you have a chance to do well.

  3. An understanding SO: if you are in a relationship, someone who understands and supports you going overseas for extended periods of time.

  4. A strong business model: you would need to be established enough in your career so that your business doesn’t fall apart when you are gone. Either that or be independently wealthy. Or pehaps young enough that you don’t have a large, well established business that you are leaving behind. I can think of at least one US rider in this position (young and moved overseas)[/QUOTE]

Agree. And I’ve said it before and ill say it again–the reason we keep getting our a$$e$ handed to us is not because of lack of rider skill or horseflesh, but because their elite riders can make a living doing nothing but being elite riders. WFP doesn’t teach lessons, hardly ever teaches clinics, doesn’t really have students in the way we would consider it, and the only time he rides a baby is when it is owned by one of his long time owners. Otherwise, he rides a handful of FEI-level event horses, day in and day out, focusing on nothing but the production of elite 4-star horses. Ditto Jung, ditto, well, almost all of them.

Contrast that with what our rider must do to just feed themselves, and it’s no great mystery why we struggle. Now, as far as changing our culture to be competitive? Well, lets just say while we’re wish granting, I’d like to lose 40lbs and travel abroad on magic teleporting unicorns because I hate to fly.

Patronage of that sort is not an American tradition like that. And Americans tend to wig at any sense of elitism (read the WFP clinic kerfluffle from last year–the sky was falling because he didn’t teach anyone below training level).

So basically, we’re kinda screwed. :frowning:

#377

Results do matter as JER clearly points out in all aspects of competitive sport.

Luck just can’t be counted on all the time.

Our riders are just fine. They are competitive. They need mounts.

Phoenix, you’re saying we need to let them develop horses as their sole business. If you start with a donkey, you can get sponsors, retire from the outside real world stress, and train the holy living crap out of it and it will still be a donkey. If they go and buy a Shamwari they get in the top ten. If we had a teamful of “Shamwari”'s, of sorts, then our riders would not have to make up barnfuls of young horses to clinic and teach themselves sick for the cashflow to bankroll said barnful.

Good horses are easy to spot. They are easy to find. They are not easy to buy and you have to know a little bit to train one up, but can be with enough money – having some way to attract big-money owners to this sport is imperative and…without results…hard to do that.

It’s pretty much what you’re mounted on.

#378

WFP and his team produce MANY horses from the 5-6 year old level. Just read his website. Bay My Hero and Moon Man come to mind right away. He has tons of young ones on his site that are aimed towards the 5, 6, and 7 year old championships. I do agree that by not teaching lots, he can really focus on riding. He does have people that work for him that he helps though (a la Sinead).

WFP has a super established program, is a great rider, can make his own horses, and has exceptional mental control. All things our riders need to work on.

#379

[QUOTE=retreadeventer;7743882]

Good horses are easy to spot. They are easy to find. They are not easy to buy and you have to know a little bit to train one up, but can be with enough money – having some way to attract big-money owners to this sport is imperative and…without results…hard to do that.

It’s pretty much what you’re mounted on.[/QUOTE]

You do mean once they are made horses right? Because if there is some secret to picking out a future 4* winner from a herd of yearlings, 2, 3 or even 4 year olds I’d love to know it.

#380

Yes but again, those are young horses, owned and/or bred by his longtime owners, doing the FEI YH classes. He’s not riding Sally Whoever’s 4-y-o, to make it up for her. Not the same at all. Of course, he’s got a wonderful system for producing horses, but he only applies it to serious top level prospects.

And actually in a press conference at Rolex last year, Sinead and he related how he actually wouldn’t help her for months after she started to work for him. She’d beg for a lesson, he’d say no, I hired you because you know what you’re doing. Not exactly the average working student situation.

And I just don’t agree we don’t have the horses. I won’t argue that best prospects don’t always end up with the top riders or end up In other disciplines, but that’s not the same as saying we don’t have them.

#381

WFP does have long-term owners.

He also has oodles of family money. He is what you’d call ‘posh’.

I point this out because it means that WFP has, throughout his adult life, been able to afford to make different choices than many event riders. Even if it’s not your parents’ money that’s supporting you outright, it’s the connections and access to money that you have when you come from money and are educated at Eton.

None of this is to say that WFP isn’t a hard worker or deserving of his success. He is and does. But when we’re talking about business models and riders’ choices, a lot depends on where you’re starting from.

#382

[QUOTE=PhoenixFarm;7743998]
Yes but again, those are young horses, owned and/or bred by his longtime owners, doing the FEI YH classes. He’s not riding Sally Whoever’s 4-y-o, to make it up for her. Not the same at all. Of course, he’s got a wonderful system for producing horses, but he only applies it to serious top level prospects.

And actually in a press conference at Rolex last year, Sinead and he related how he actually wouldn’t help her for months after she started to work for him. She’d beg for a lesson, he’d say no, I hired you because you know what you’re doing. Not exactly the average working student situation.

And I just don’t agree we don’t have the horses. I won’t argue that best prospects don’t always end up with the top riders or end up In other disciplines, but that’s not the same as saying we don’t have them.[/QUOTE]

Being a working student in the US is very different from being a working student in Europe. Read Tik Maynard’s blog.

As to WFP teaching below Training level that would be like an MIT professor of Economics teaching a bunch of kindergarteners their numbers

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