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Archives World Cup Las Vegas -- 2015
#423

I see some contradictions in compiling a few oft-repeated statements when bemoaning the North American results at major games:

  1. our riders aren’t getting specialist coaching in dressage and jumping
  2. our riders are running the horses too much, for too many months each year
  3. the horses are travelling too much

Yet we are told that the Germans are spending more time doing dressage and jumper shows than eventing and if our riders did that, they could also dominate.

However this doesn’t address the real problem of teams that don’t finish XC and therefore aren’t even in contention. So then we get:

  1. The Brits, NZs and Aussies hunt their horses so they have a better foundation for XC riding
  2. the Germans don’t
  3. here in North America we probably have more open land than any of the above-named countries

Coaching:

  1. They have more, and better, specialist coaches
  2. They are able to spend more time, or get funding, for coaching
  3. We have great coaches here but the riders don’t take from them (see above)
  4. the riders can’t afford to spend money on coaching, or take the time to get it, they need to teach/clinic instead

Perhaps some of the grant money that is being spent on flying horses across the ocean for a one-off event, should instead be put into coaching (of any variety)?

#424

[QUOTE=Jealoushe;7746049]
That plan is obviously not working either though - unless they are winning at the 4* level, not sure who your pro is so can’t really comment. Getting experience riding sales horses is not the experience that is going to get you out there dominating internationally.[/QUOTE]

Where did I ever say it worked? I said there are different ways to make money and gave an example, since you are harping on teaching lessons and clinics being the only way they make money. Maybe the current pros need to get creative about ways to make money if they are spending all their time teaching lessons. ALL jobs involve getting creative and making things work - riding shouldn’t be any different.

The pro I support is young, so her success is yet to be determined. It is a great business model for her right now because she is getting so much experience on different horses. She now knows how to make a horse that wins at the lower levels. Next up is bringing this current batch of talented youngsters to the upper levels and seeing where the holes in her training are and patching them up so that she can win at the next level. Everything is a building process, and she had to start somewhere - she is not going to become a 4* rider over night.

#425

Actually there is hunting in Germany, but it’s drag hunting. Someone else will know if German eventers take advantage of hunting there.

#426

[QUOTE=Blugal;7746093]
I see some contradictions in compiling a few oft-repeated statements when bemoaning the North American results at major games:

  1. our riders aren’t getting specialist coaching in dressage and jumping
  2. our riders are running the horses too much, for too many months each year
  3. the horses are travelling too much

Yet we are told that the Germans are spending more time doing dressage and jumper shows than eventing and if our riders did that, they could also dominate.

However this doesn’t address the real problem of teams that don’t finish XC and therefore aren’t even in contention. So then we get:

  1. The Brits, NZs and Aussies hunt their horses so they have a better foundation for XC riding
  2. the Germans don’t
  3. here in North America we probably have more open land than any of the above-named countries

Coaching:

  1. They have more, and better, specialist coaches
  2. They are able to spend more time, or get funding, for coaching
  3. We have great coaches here but the riders don’t take from them (see above)
  4. the riders can’t afford to spend money on coaching, or take the time to get it, they need to teach/clinic instead

Perhaps some of the grant money that is being spent on flying horses across the ocean for a one-off event, should instead be put into coaching (of any variety)?[/QUOTE]

I think our horses need more conditioning (and overall more TB blood, or blood traits, as percentage isn’t everything), and the riders more dressage and jumping experience/coaching.

#427

Whoa…easy. I was hardly harping - I had a two sentence paragraph - jeesh. If it’s not working then I don’t know what your point is. Obviously if you are using Gofund me to build a business expansion then no - it isn’t working. I think it’s great your YR is working towards a sustainable business in the horse industry, but will that make a success at the international level? We don’t know yet. My guess is no, not matter how good they are. Too much time on buying selling, competing on sales horses, etc.

None of the business plans are working as far as delivering results on the International scale.

#428

[QUOTE=Jealoushe;7746217]

None of the business plans are working as far as delivering results on the International scale.[/QUOTE]

That is a good springboard… Which North American has had international success in the past, say, 10-15 years, and should be used as a model? Defined as an individual medal or multiple team medals at any major championships, and/or top 4* success, shall we say?

Off the top of my head (feel free to add)

  1. Amy Tryon, team gold 2002 WEG, team bronze 2004 Olympics, Ind. bronze 2006 WEG

  2. Kim Severson (with Winsome Adante), team gold WEG 2002, Ind. silver & team bronze 2004 Olympics, 3-time 4* winner, 3rd Badminton 2007

  3. David O’Connor, Ind. gold & team bronze 2000 Olympics, same horse won Badminton 1997, team gold 2002 WEG

  4. Phillip Dutton, won Rolex 2008 & 2 golds for Australia Olympics 1996, 2000

  5. Gina Miles, Ind. Silver 2008 Olympics

I am not an expert on the above group; but Amy and Kim did not really follow the model of “instructor/clinician” that we keep talking about. Amy was a firefighter (until she switched to full-time horse pro) with a supportive husband who owned many of her own horses. Kim had one generous sponsor in Plain Dealing Farm and rode and worked for them pretty exclusively.

Gina got McKinlaigh when he was 5 - she definitely did the work with him and had the results to show for it.

Amy started Poggio on his eventing career all the way through.

Kim got Winsome Adante when he was going Prelim.

#429

Becky Holder?

#430

[QUOTE=Gnep;7745674]
It is not about money. US Eventing has tons of money. The amounts spent on eventing are huge. The problem is how to organize that money and use it efectifly[/QUOTE]

This is exactly right.

The money is out there. The challenge is to channel it where it will do the most good.

A lot of the US money goes into very narrow channels supporting proven professionals, not into wider support of more developing riders. It is really no surprise that our team tends toward those older, proven professionals. What else do we have?

It is significant that an effort is being made now for the younger riders. It’s still new, though, and it’s focusing on sending them over to Europe for individual competitions, rather than developing infrastructure on these shores.

Sending young riders on one-off trips overseas is helpful … it’s also short-sighted. The mad scramble for a medal, any medal, NOW, may be coming at the expense of long-term sustainability.

#431

How come Phillip was so successful with the Australians?

#432

[QUOTE=Jealoushe;7746492]
How come Phillip was so successful with the Australians?[/QUOTE]

I have often wondered about that. As soon as he got his US citizenship his international results went downhill. :frowning: And I am not being critical, I am a great admirer of PD.

#433

In my view, the problem isn’t quality of horse or even, strictly speaking, quality of rider…its the relatively few number of miles that the average US rider gets at the top levels. Basically, its a quantity of quality horses issue. Which, of course, isn’t surprising given the expense of keeping a horse at that level.

While it certainly happens that a rider can have great success with experience on just a handful of upper level horses in his/her career, we all know that practice makes perfect. You don’t typically become the type of rider who can consistently deliver at the highest levels of the sport under intense pressure by riding lots and lots of Training/Prelim horses. You acquire that by riding many, many horses at the 3*/4* level. It isn’t just that the European riders like WFP and Jung are more focused on riding rather than teaching, its that they have a lot more miles out on course. They’ve had to ride out of lots of tights spots, dealt with miserable footing, tired horses, and have had some pretty miserable outcomes and have bounced back with an increased knowledge base and more tools in their toolboxes.

Back after the London Olympics, I did a fair bit of digging in the FEI database. I won’t update that today for the 2014 WEG results since I just don’t have the time. But, the break down was:

Team medals:
Germany

  • Peter Thomsen -> 4 horses at the 3/4* level in 2011/2012. 3/4 of those sponsored by Horseware, by the way.
  • Dirk Schrade -> 3 horses at the 3/4* level in 2012
  • Sandra Auffarth -> 2 horses at the 3/4* level in 2012
  • Michael Jung -> 5 horses at the 3/4* level in 2012
  • Ingrid Klimke -> 4 horses at the 3/4* in 2012

Great Britain

  • William Fox-Pitt -> Trust me…you don’t want to know. A lot.
  • Nicola Wilson -> 7 3/4* horses in 2011/2012
  • Zara Phillips -> 4 3/4* horses in 2011/2012
  • Mary King -> 4 3/4* horses in 2011/2012
  • Kristina Cook -> 4 3/4* horses in 2011/2012

New Zealand

  • Jonelle Richards -> 4 3/4* horses in 2011/2012
  • Caroline Powell -> 6 3/4* horses in 2011/2012
  • Jonathan Paget -> 5 3/4* horses in 2011/2012
  • Andrew Nicholson -> 10+ 3/4* horses in 2011/2012
  • Mark Todd -> 8 3/4* horses in 2011/2012

Individuals Medals

  • Michael Jung - see above
  • Sara Algotsson Ostholt - 2 3/4* horses in 2011/2012
  • Sandra Auffarth - see above

So, while it isn’t foolproof, consistently getting those miles at the 3/4* level is extremely important in my view.

Now, the US did have 3 riders with pretty good strings at WEG. Boyd delivered, PD and Buck did not. But in all fairness, both Oscar and Reggie ran out of gas - they didn’t have problems with the questions on course so I don’t think their performance really takes away from my point about getting riders upper level miles.

While I don’t have time to do a really thorough analysis of the top placed riders at WEG, it did occur to me that Michael Jung, Zara Phillips, Sinead Halpin and Lynn Symansky are all approximately the same age - early 30s. I did take some time to look at their respective records.

Lynn - two 4* horses, and 4 other horses at the 1*/2* level. She went 5 years (2008-2013) without a 4* horse. She has run, including WEG, 6 4* events and been to the Pan Ams twice.

Sinead - one 4* horse, 4 horses that ran at the 2* level and one at the 1* level. She has completed 5 4*.

Zara - It would take a LOT of time to do a similar breakdown for Zara. Her FEI record is 4 pages long (and each page has 50 events) - both Lynn and Sinead’s were only a page long. That said, she has competed 4 horses at the 4* level, and competed in at least 19 4*, including twice at the WEG, two European championships and the Olympics. She has had numerous 2*/3* horses.

Jung - Now, Jung doesn’t have as many 4* on his resume as Zara; he has about 9 4* on three different horses. But, the Germans don’t typically tend to run as many 4*…instead, his FEI record is 9 pages long, including lots of 2*/3* results and numerous forays in the jumper ranks. Basically, a ton of miles.

I think Lynn and Sinead are extremely good riders, with very talented horses. But, so are Jung and Zara. The latter also have the benefit of heaps and heaps and heaps of experience at three day events - and on many different horses. I think that on a tough 4* track with less than ideal conditions, those extra miles make a huge difference.

I think its also noteworthy that some younger riders are on that path in North America. Jessica Phoenix is also in that age bracket, and while she doesn’t have numbers that quite compare to Zara/Jung, she has competed at 6 4* and from a quick assessment of her three pages worth of results (so between 100-150 FEI events) many, many 2*/3* events with a variety of horses. I don’t think its a coincidence that last weekend, she rode a clear round in trying conditions on a horse who had not yet contested a 4*.

On a final note, the issue of spending money wisely has come up. Some seem to think that spending money sending riders abroad to compete is not necessarily a great use of funds. I disagree. Its not enough to run more 3*/4* events. The riders (and horses) also need to run some of those events under pressure and against stiff competition. The best place for that experience remains Europe. The USET cannot provide the horses, that is up to the riders and sport supports if desired. But the USET should continue to fund trips abroad.

#434

[QUOTE=Jealoushe;7746492]
How come Phillip was so successful with the Australians?[/QUOTE]

He is now in the US, that’s the problem.
The US is an Island and it causes inbreeding. When do the US riders match themselves up against the top of the world. Not at Rolex, it has become a local show as Sydney. If any of the Euro based riders show up they win it, hands down

#435

[QUOTE=Blugal;7746093]

However this doesn’t address the real problem of teams that don’t finish XC and therefore aren’t even in contention. [/QUOTE]

And that is the real problem: If you can’t complete on XC and be ready to go the following day, you’re not succeeding at international eventing.

Mike Plumb has this to say about the current USEF era’s lack of success: ‘It’s really hard work.’

I think the US suffers from the part-time syndrome that Gnep mentions. But it’s not just a part-time coach, it’s also riders who, on some level, are satisfied with being good enough in the US, but not competitive on a world level.

Recently, we’ve seen riders like Tiana Coudray and Clark Montgomery move to the UK to pursues that goal. They’ve probably learned a lot about what’s missing from the US experience, and we’ll see if that translates into results.

Elite sport isn’t easy, and usually requires a single-mindedness that makes most humans – even talented, ambitious, dedicated ones – uneasy. There are about a million reasons why you won’t find a steady supply of Mike Plumbs or Bruce Davidsons.

#436

[QUOTE=OverandOnward;7746442]
This is exactly right.

The money is out there. The challenge is to channel it where it will do the most good.

A lot of the US money goes into very narrow channels supporting proven professionals, not into wider support of more developing riders. It is really no surprise that our team tends toward those older, proven professionals. What else do we have?

It is significant that an effort is being made now for the younger riders. It’s still new, though, and it’s focusing on sending them over to Europe for individual competitions, rather than developing infrastructure on these shores.

Sending young riders on one-off trips overseas is helpful … it’s also short-sighted. The mad scramble for a medal, any medal, NOW, may be coming at the expense of long-term sustainability.[/QUOTE]

But than you need a certain amount of ruthlenes, if a rider does not deliver he is out.
Klimke has been on that Team for ever, never counted for individuals.
But she delivers, when ever she rides Team, she always comes through, the ultimate anchor.
The day she can not do that anymore, she is history.
As long as you have somebody like her around, delivering, you can take risks and bring fresh faces.

Its about organization of a Team, you need a captain, like Klimke and than you need the stars and the risk, which might turn out to be dynamite and you have to have the individuals, that can put the pressure on the stars, the risk and the captain.
Its about knowing who you are, Klimke, and constant delivering, if you fail, Debo, you are second choise.
For the US, Boyd, the rest failed to deliver, top 20 minimum. Lets have the next generation give it a try

#437

[QUOTE=JER;7747195]
And that is the real problem: If you can’t complete on XC and be ready to go the following day, you’re not succeeding at international eventing.

Mike Plumb has this to say about the current USEF era’s lack of success: ‘It’s really hard work.’

I think the US suffers from the part-time syndrome that Gnep mentions. But it’s not just a part-time coach, it’s also riders who, on some level, are satisfied with being good enough in the US, but not competitive on a world level.

Recently, we’ve seen riders like Tiana Coudray and Clark Montgomery move to the UK to pursues that goal. They’ve probably learned a lot about what’s missing from the US experience, and we’ll see if that translates into results.

Elite sport isn’t easy, and usually requires a single-mindedness that makes most humans – even talented, ambitious, dedicated ones – uneasy. There are about a million reasons why you won’t find a steady supply of Mike Plumbs or Bruce Davidsons.[/QUOTE]

They are working their buts of in US to make a living, they do triple overtime.

There is a difference between tryin to make a living and being a world champion.

The business model that is current in the US does not work.
People are asking for eventing stables and coaches, so the pros are pushed into a corner. They go from one event to a nother, do nothing else.
Eventing has become single minded in the US and is inbreeding.
In Europe eventers do everything, jumping, dressage and sometimes eventing

#438

[QUOTE=Gnep;7747227]
They are working their buts of in US to make a living, they do triple overtime.

There is a difference between tryin to make a living and being a world champion.

The business model that is current in the US does not work.
People are asking for eventing stables and coaches, so the pros are pushed into a corner. They go from one event to a nother, do nothing else.
Eventing has become single minded in the US and is inbreeding.
In Europe eventers do everything, jumping, dressage and sometimes eventing[/QUOTE]

truth

#439

Imagine this …

When the funds first became available to send US eventers overseas … was it 2011? those funds were poured into US 4*-level courses, and doing whatever it takes to get the other courses to European standard, whatever that is. [Forget the FEI approval arguments, this is a fantasy, anyway. And the FEI can’t be allowed to hold back a population nation this large … ]

Bringing over top European coaches on a short- and long-term basis was also a priority, for clinics and also for consistent coaching over a period of time.

Some people did go overseas for experience, but the focus was on infrastructure on these shores.

With building completed by the end of 2011, competing over those courses would have begun spring 2012. The divisions would be small at first but they would grow, rapidly.

Although as of spring 2014 that would have been only 4 eventing calendar seasons, by now those located in the most dense eventing population areas would have divisions at least 2/3’rds as large as the 3*'s in those same areas. Even a dozen horses is important - there might be as many as 20 or more in each division in certain venues. (Compared with how many at WEG & Burghley?)

By 2016, the 4*'s might not have as many entries as Badminton and Burghley, but probably 25-40 riders would be riding 4* courses on a regular basis, some on more than one horse - so perhaps 35-50 horses getting that experience.

Imagine the number of riders and horses in the pool to choose from for the 2016 Olympics - had that path been chosen in 2011.

Imagine the pool for the 2018 WEG … 2020 Olympics …

Compare that with the track we are on today.

Just saying.

#440

Backstage, thank you so much for digging into the FEI database and sharing that research with us. You’ve made an excellent point.

#441

[QUOTE=JER;7747195]
And that is the real problem: If you can’t complete on XC and be ready to go the following day, you’re not succeeding at international eventing.

Mike Plumb has this to say about the current USEF era’s lack of success: ‘It’s really hard work.’

I think the US suffers from the part-time syndrome that Gnep mentions. But it’s not just a part-time coach, it’s also riders who, on some level, are satisfied with being good enough in the US, but not competitive on a world level.

Recently, we’ve seen riders like Tiana Coudray and Clark Montgomery move to the UK to pursues that goal. They’ve probably learned a lot about what’s missing from the US experience, and we’ll see if that translates into results.

Elite sport isn’t easy, and usually requires a single-mindedness that makes most humans – even talented, ambitious, dedicated ones – uneasy. There are about a million reasons why you won’t find a steady supply of Mike Plumbs or Bruce Davidsons.[/QUOTE]

For many I’m sure its a business decision. If someone has a business to support in the US, can they necessarily afford to go overseas for extended periods of time? The best in the US probably can because people like Buck and Boyd have very well-established business models. I think there are many others who are talented, maybe have a horse or two who could do it, but can’t afford to leave their business behind.

Maddie Blackman, another young and talented rider from the US, just moved over to the UK to work for Oliver Townend. She’s young and probably at a point in her life where it is easier to make a move like that. If she were in her mid to late 20’s with lots of clients to teach and horses to train, moving over there would be much more difficult.

It’s about making sacrifices and not everyone has the time or the money to be able to do it.

#442

William Fox-Pitt subscribes to the belief that the correct number of horses to own is n+1, where n = the number he currently owns.

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