Del Mar Live Stream

[quote=“Scr![](bbler,post:119,topic:442374”]

Are these on the same horse? From the posts above I thought this horse was new to her in the past year?

I can imagine a rider thinking they needed a much better horse to get out of a rut of straight C or C minus grades. And then getting a horse they can’t quite ride but believing you can do anything if you set your mind to it (and pay a lot).

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This is the horse in the video [TABLE=“cellspacing: 0”]
[TR]
TestName Min Median Max # Scores [/TR]
[TR]
[TD]I2 Regular[/TD]
[TD]50[/TD]
[TD]60.66[/TD]
[TD]63.684[/TD]
[TD][IMG]https://ajax.googleapis.com/ajax/static/modules/gviz/1.0/util/bar_s.png)[IMG]https://ajax.googleapis.com/ajax/static/modules/gviz/1.0/util/bar_b.png)[IMG]https://ajax.googleapis.com/ajax/static/modules/gviz/1.0/util/bar_s.png) 6 [/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Here are all the horses listed for this rider

  • [TABLE="cellspacing: 0"] [TR] Horse Min Median Max # Scores Last Ride [/TR] [TR] [TD]Vorst D[/TD] [TD]50[/TD] [TD]60.66[/TD] [TD]63.684[/TD] [TD][IMG]https://ajax.googleapis.com/ajax/static/modules/gviz/1.0/util/bar_s.png)[IMG]https://ajax.googleapis.com/ajax/static/modules/gviz/1.0/util/bar_b.png)[IMG]https://ajax.googleapis.com/ajax/static/modules/gviz/1.0/util/bar_w.png)[IMG]https://ajax.googleapis.com/ajax/static/modules/gviz/1.0/util/bar_s.png) 6 [/TD] [TD]Aug 5, 2017[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Bright Lights[/TD] [TD]60.132[/TD] [TD]60.13[/TD] [TD]60.132[/TD] [TD][IMG]https://ajax.googleapis.com/ajax/static/modules/gviz/1.0/util/bar_s.png)[IMG]https://ajax.googleapis.com/ajax/static/modules/gviz/1.0/util/bar_b.png)[IMG]https://ajax.googleapis.com/ajax/static/modules/gviz/1.0/util/bar_w.png)[IMG]https://ajax.googleapis.com/ajax/static/modules/gviz/1.0/util/bar_s.png) 1 [/TD] [TD]Jun 4, 2016[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Comtesse Byhoj[/TD] [TD]49.868[/TD] [TD]56.71[/TD] [TD]63.947[/TD] [TD][IMG]https://ajax.googleapis.com/ajax/static/modules/gviz/1.0/util/bar_s.png)[IMG]https://ajax.googleapis.com/ajax/static/modules/gviz/1.0/util/bar_b.png)[IMG]https://ajax.googleapis.com/ajax/static/modules/gviz/1.0/util/bar_w.png)[IMG]https://ajax.googleapis.com/ajax/static/modules/gviz/1.0/util/bar_s.png) 5 [/TD] [TD]Aug 22, 2013[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Sonata Grace[/TD] [TD]53.571[/TD] [TD]60.51[/TD] [TD]65.705[/TD] [TD][IMG]https://ajax.googleapis.com/ajax/static/modules/gviz/1.0/util/bar_s.png)[IMG]https://ajax.googleapis.com/ajax/static/modules/gviz/1.0/util/bar_b.png)[IMG]https://ajax.googleapis.com/ajax/static/modules/gviz/1.0/util/bar_w.png)[IMG]https://ajax.googleapis.com/ajax/static/modules/gviz/1.0/util/bar_s.png) 8 [/TD] [TD]Apr 25, 2013[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]La Roc[/TD] [TD]57.875[/TD] [TD]61.00[/TD] [TD]68.286[/TD] [TD][IMG]https://ajax.googleapis.com/ajax/static/modules/gviz/1.0/util/bar_s.png)[IMG]https://ajax.googleapis.com/ajax/static/modules/gviz/1.0/util/bar_b.png)[IMG]https://ajax.googleapis.com/ajax/static/modules/gviz/1.0/util/bar_w.png)[IMG]https://ajax.googleapis.com/ajax/static/modules/gviz/1.0/util/bar_s.png) 11 [/TD] [TD]Oct 4, 2012[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]High Society[/TD] [TD]50.488[/TD] [TD]60.12[/TD] [TD]65.349[/TD] [TD][IMG]https://ajax.googleapis.com/ajax/static/modules/gviz/1.0/util/bar_s.png)[IMG]https://ajax.googleapis.com/ajax/static/modules/gviz/1.0/util/bar_b.png)[IMG]https://ajax.googleapis.com/ajax/static/modules/gviz/1.0/util/bar_s.png) 25 [/TD] [TD]Mar 5, 2011[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Wraeder[/TD] [TD]52.778[/TD] [TD]52.78[/TD] [TD]52.778[/TD] [TD][IMG]https://ajax.googleapis.com/ajax/static/modules/gviz/1.0/util/bar_s.png)[IMG]https://ajax.googleapis.com/ajax/static/modules/gviz/1.0/util/bar_b.png)[IMG]https://ajax.googleapis.com/ajax/static/modules/gviz/1.0/util/bar_w.png)[IMG]https://ajax.googleapis.com/ajax/static/modules/gviz/1.0/util/bar_s.png) 1 [/TD] [TD]Aug 14, 2004[/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE]
Our Recommendations:

I see 7 horses, median score of 60% in all tests going back to 2004.

Current horse low of 50, max 63, median 60.

It’s easy to search if you guys want to look up any more info

2 Likes

I agree.

Yes, we should talk about this, why on earth should we not openly discuss this and name her, unless there is specifically some rule here about not naming her? [h=2]Shelley Browning[/h]
I will not feel bad for commenting on a public ride, on a livestream, when there is this level of ABUSE. To cover it up is inexcusable.

Mods, go ahead and delete, but I have no connection to this situation, but let’s get it out there if we are going to discuss in this much detail already. Let everyone do their own research

15 Likes

The ability to buy a team horse…the ability to buy into a syndicate…etc…and who knows who the heck she is training with, but it could also be someone well placed

6 Likes

I agree the performance is fair game for public commentary. Again not for her limited skills, because all of us had or still have novice level skills at some point. It’s the matter of not recognizing your limited abilities and thinking that a spectacular horse can compensate for them.

For sure that strategy has been very successful for a lot of people at lower levels but when you start moving up you have to be able to RIDE that lovely horse.

Personally I don’t buy the theory that the judges went easy because she is apparently rich and “powerful.” I’d be surprised if anyone outside her local area knows who she is; even more surprised if an entire panel of FEI judges knew of her. Axel nailed it on the head by saying the ride was “insufficient” and should have scored comfortably below 50.

The whole thing reminds me of another amateur I know who bought a very nice horse who had been scoring well at GP in Europe. The buyer was fairly capable at First and even Second Level, but was somewhat nervous and definitely lacked the balance, core strength and fitness to ride an upper level horse. Within a matter of months the new horse was not only performing at the rider’s level, but became so frustrated and confused his answer was simply to stop going forward, at all. He would stop and the rider had trouble even getting him to walk forward.

Humility and self-awareness are such an important part of equestrian sports - recognizing your limitations, having the right people around you to tell you the truth and help you progress, and listening to those people. There are certain people who always blame the horse and never ever find fault with themselves. If the trainer tells them the truth, those people just go find another trainer.

19 Likes

![]( think this is a fitting article here by the President
[h=1]A Year Later: We Need To Show Our Integrity In All That We Do[/h] By: Columnist Mary Babick
Jan 20, 2018 - 9:33 PM
[IMG]http://d3smcx1ckyjfrg.cloudfront.net/wp_chronofhorse/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/26092500/HunterStockScratch-284x159.jpg)
[IMG]http://www.chronofhorse.com/images/icon-print.png)Print Share
These views are mine. Yes, I am a “public figure” and for that reason my words carry additional weight. That is a burden that I bear with both pride and it is also the cudgel that is used to beat me. I am speaking up for the sport that I love and with my vision of where we are and where we should be.

Read Mary Babick’s 2017 column, “We All Need To Make Good Choices For Our Sport.”

It has been a year since I sat in the Lexington airport with some fellow USEF directors. If you remember, my question was, “Why aren’t we embarrassed?” During the passage of 365 days I find that I am no longer embarrassed. I am saddened, disappointed and soul sick with so many parts of our industry. In my mind, that is worse than being angry.

Life is full of people who play by the rules, others who play by the rules only when it is convenient and those special few who think rules are for everyone else. Life is also composed of upstanders and bystanders. Our lives are ruled by the choices we make every day.

So, what is our landscape? Have we changed?

Moral outrage has grown by leaps and bounds. All you have to do is walk near an in-gate or read social media to understand that people are really angry. But, have those words translated into action?

For some, yes.

Others hanker for change but are unable or unwilling to step out of their comfort zone to be part of the process. These people love the idea of being an upstander as long as it is in principle but not in reality. To be frank, being an upstander is not a fun or easy task. The risk/reward ratio probably doesn’t feel like it will be in your favor.

I receive many calls. Here is a typical conversation:

Person X: Hi, I want your help in fixing a problem.

Me: I will give it my best. What can I do to help?

X: Well, I saw a person doing (insert truly heinous action) to a horse/person. I felt sick to my stomach. What can you do to prevent this? Our industry is broken! I want this to be fixed!

Me: Would you be willing to give specifics of who and when?

X: Well, no. I wouldn’t want to get involved. I can’t take the risk.

M: Oh, then how do you want me to solve your problem?

X: I don’t know! Isn’t that your job? Now, since you haven’t fixed it, I will have to copy their actions. Otherwise I can’t beat them in competition—you have created an unlevel playing field for me.

Me: Sigh.

I truly wish that this was a bunch of stuff and nonsense. It isn’t. It is also not just one or two people. Many people in the show world share some part of this opinion. Some of them join the cheaters. In my opinion, that makes you part of the problem. Others quit and leave our industry to take up different sports. Some stay and blame everything on governance.

There are many, many people in our horse world that do things without resorting to doping, cruel training practices or poor treatment of animals. It can be done. I live that life. Perhaps some of you will say, “But, she has never ridden, trained or owned a good horse in her life”. My question to those people is: does a good horse deserve worse treatment?

Yes, a horse is a prey animal. It instinctually wants to flee in certain situations. Some horses, regardless of their athleticism, are not good candidates for our disciplines. They are a square peg in a round hole. Proper selection and training of horses allied with proper training of riders are vitally important factors.

Trainers—select wisely (and, honestly, many of you do).

Riders—perfect your craft and know your limitations.

Parents—ask many questions and, once you trust your trainer, TRUST your trainer. Don’t over-mount or over-face your child. Let your trainer do their job. Understand the journey towards knowing your child’s sport. Be willing to accept the learning curve.

All of us need to remember that, although we live in a win, win culture, blue ribbons and accolades are not the most important thing in our sport. The most important thing is love for and respect of our partner—the horse.

Second, if we want to get better, we need to be better. We have to play by the rules. It is time to stop making rules to address personal situations because, in doing so, we have made our rule book convoluted and overly complicated. We need to accept that there cannot be a rule for every situation. As a friend of mine says, you are a judge—use your judgment.

As competitors, we need to play with honor. We don’t need to comb the rule book for loopholes. We shouldn’t be addicted to breaking the rules or only playing fair if we think that no one is looking. The statement “if you aren’t cheating, you aren’t trying hard enough” should be an anathema not a gold standard for our sport.

We need to show our integrity in all that we do. Allow me to relate a conversation I had in a meeting. The topic was qualifying classes for the equitation finals. The task force member was advocating for the removal of the 14-show cap for equitation. The person spoke about a desire to return to the prior system where, at times, trainers instructed their students to purposely make mistakes in classes so that riders needing points could win.

I re-stated the comment: As long as no one is hurt, it is OK to cheat and to game the system? I asked if they were willing to publish their comment in the press. The task force member was horrified by the naivety of my comments. Apparently, parental pressure forces trainers into less than ethical actions. Sorry, but I cry foul on all situations of this type. We should not live under a system where we subscribe to the all of the cool kids are doing it theory.

I had an interesting conversation with a horse show dad the other day. His daughter rides and he is also a horse show announcer. His day job is that of a golf pro. He explained the concept of “protect the field.” Golf is a game of honor and the participants are expected to call penalties on themselves. During a tournament, all competitors protect the field by monitoring each other.

I asked him how he felt about the equitation comment. His answer? If that is how things work then there is no need for my daughter to continue to compete. It is a rigged game and I don’t want her to learn those life lessons. We need to be mindful of his comment. Again, it comes back to honor and integrity.

Last but not least, people put most but not all of the finger of blame on the governance of our sport. I guarantee that there are things that can be done differently and better. I refuse to make excuses for any poor performance of any governance organizations. It is time to conduct a thorough examination of all that we do and to fix any problems that we find. It is time to stop stonewalling people and to start giving them access to the facts—no matter how ugly. I will say that change is a monumental task and it is the yoke that I wear.

Should we abandon or destroy the structures that exist and build again? Should we have no governance at all? Should we embrace only the unrecognized world? These are all good questions.

My personal decision is that it is better to work with the structures that we have rather than to knock the whole thing down and start again. This task feels like one of the 10 labors of Hercules. Cleaning up our sport is akin to Hercules and the Augean stables. I, for one, am up for the task but I can’t do it alone. I have to count on you to help. I am there for you. I hope you are there for our sport.

I don’t want to go through another 365 days of disappointment. Please join me in being an upstander and not a bystander.

9 Likes

Like I said it is one rider. Not a system wide problem. She got a score low enough to apparently make her or her handlers rethink and she scratched her upcoming classes.

That seems to me that the judges sent an effective message even if it wasn’t the most severe in their arsenal.

And actually, allowing the rider to continue and get an embarrassing liw score is probably more effective than ringing her out and having to defend that.

When you have someone like this that’s an outlier so much worse than anybody else and you have to evaluate them it can be hard initially to dial down low enough.

Perhaps if she had barged on and done a similar ride in front of the same judges the next day they might have been alert to ring her out.

But it seems to me the judging accomplished what it needed to and sent the right message.

9 Likes

I’d argue that while grades and test scores are both often put in terms of percentages, the scales are not equivalent, and a 50% on a dressage test is not necessarily akin to a D on a course.

In my classrooms an A grade is usually 94% or above. Let’s assume that Olympic dressage riders are the star pupils, the summa cum laude, the valedictorians of the dressage world. They should be getting A’s. Charlotte’s freestyle in Rio came close, but the ‘course average’ for the rides that won her the gold was closer to 87% (a B in my gradebook). The range of scores among these top riders extends from there well down into the 70s (and even into the 60s). We can also look at CDIs (I’m looking at a few recent CDIs in North America, for the sake of convenience), which should theoretically also demonstrate a score range associated with the highest achievers. Here we find scores centered on the mid-60s through mid-70s, with an occasional score in the 50s and even less frequently a ride in the 80s.

If we consider the sorts of scores that amateurs get at non-FEI levels, I’d expect the central tendency to hover even lower on the scale. It’s not uncommon for the overall high scores at shows I’ve attended to be in the 70s. Mid-60s are often considered to be decent scores for ordinary ammy riders on tests that are appropriate for their skill levels (the B students). USDF rider medals only require scores of 60% or higher, after all. It drops off quickly from there – upper 50s aren’t shamefully bad for an early foray at a level. 50 is not good, neither is it unheard of, but anything below 50 is vanishingly rare.

The distribution of scores in a course I teach is usually slightly negatively skewed (has a longer left tail than right) with a median in the low 80s and a mean a bit below that. Given the range of scores we tend to see in dressage, I’d expect the opposite – a positively skewed distribution (with a longer right tail and a steep drop off on the left), with a median in the 60s and a mean a bit above that. I’d be pretty concerned about my teaching if my gradebook looked like that. It’s the kind of distribution you see if you put together a bad exam, where everyone aces the multiple-choice questions but only a couple of students can fully solve the problem set that follows. This doesn’t mean that it’s problematic in dressage, only that it differs from what we often see in university grades.

If we decide that this is apples and oranges and instead use the qualitative guidelines attached to the numerical scoring scale to find equivalencies, a 5 on each movement would be solidly “sufficient”, and thus we might expect a score that averages out to 50% overall to represent a sufficient grade (C for my program).

Given the range of scores that we see in dressage and the published guidelines for scoring, then, a 50% could easily be rationalized as a “pass” (even if barely), especially by a rider who has a tendency to assign blame to external sources (the horse, the trainer, the show environment, etc.).

In fact, this rider earned a very similar score the previous day, and came back out with spurs a-blazing for another shot in the Friday test. We don’t know if it was the score, some personal/horse care issue, or the shame of rendering Axel Steiner speechless that caused her to scratch after the ride under discussion.

I agree to a certain extent with the “don’t bury them” principle for earnest students who are working hard and taking responsibility for their learning. And it seems like a reasonable philosophy for judging riders who seem to be making an honest effort to meet the objectives of the test and ride according to the principles of the sport. But I have no scruples about assigning an F to a student with low scores if they do not demonstrate that responsibility (e.g. the student who texts under the table instead of participating or routinely misses class or violates academic integrity rules). And I don’t think dressage judges owe that courtesy to riders whose tests demonstrate poor general horsemanship.

5 Likes

Sorry, I assumed this was the same CDI that is held in San Diego and San Juan Capistrano every year and that the sponsor was different this year.

1 Like

Probably I should start a new thread on judging people based on medians or past scores, but since you put this here, I’m going to respond.

First of all, I don’t call those median scores ‘very’ low. Medians are weird, imo. If you have only 1 score of say 65%, then your median is 65%. Does that make sense? On the other hand, if you have a bunch of really old low scores when you were just learning, it takes a long long time to get enough high scores to bring that median up. If I am going to judge someone by their scores, I look at the most recent scores for the last year or year prior. Personally, I would be happy with those medians because they are better than mine which suck.

10 Likes

Video 1 of 3 around the 50 minute mark? That’s an interview… have things been edited?

Try video 2

See if this link works for you: (the test after hers is a lovely pony; Axel talks about taking hands off the reins in the pony video with regard to the previous rider)

https://www.facebook.com/adequanwest…4994799629798/

1 Like

Video 1 of 3 from Friday

Well at my school 85 is an A and 50 to 59 is D. Currently. They fiddle with this periodically but because I mark assignments with a letter grade and submit a letter grade I don’t pay too much attention.

So I think the correlation of per cent to letter grade can be rather fluid between institutions.

And how students react is very different. If you got less than an A in my MA program well really you might as well quit then and there. But now I have undergrads who are thrilled to just get the C plus minimum.

I agree that we can’t really make a direct correspondence between college grades and dressage scores. But on the other hand 60 years ago it was quite likely that C satisfactory might have been the median grade in many college courses whereas now grade inflation has made sure that B is the more likely grade for satisfactory and C is more like unsatisfactory.

​​​

1 Like

YIKES. There it is…

I watched the ride. It made me sick. I’m with Axel: “I can’t say much so its best to say nothing at all.”

I do not understand why the judges let it continue nor at the very least why the judge didn’t step down at the end and say something to the rider. I’ve seen them do this for less egregious reasons.

The way the horse was treated at the end of the test is inexcusable.

12 Likes

Since when has calling out bad behavior become “shaming”? I can’t ride at that level and I couldn’t ride that horse. That’s why I piddle around at training level. She should be ashamed of that ride and the way she took out her lack of skill on that poor horse. She has to know that she had no business riding that level with her skill set. As a society we seem to no longer be willing to hold people to a higher standard.

I’d consider it shaming if someone made fun of someone’s clothing, or their horse’s breeding, or even their riding if they were riding at an appropriate level and struggling.

Money can buy the horse, it still can’t buy skill or class.

22 Likes

Wow – interesting to hear how different the grading is in your program than what I’m used to. I geek out on this because I think a lot about scoring/coding systems and their distributional properties, including for grading (esp. how to scale numerical scores to letters in a way that is fair to students at all levels of achievement but still resists to some extent the trend toward grade inflation … departments and instructors have a lot of leeway in this regard at the universities I’ve taught at). I’m glad you made the analogy. And I actually think that dressage scoring probably comes closer than contemporary university grading to the perfect normal distribution (whichmay never have truly existed at many colleges) with a C average and symmetrical tails… but the “not bury them” notion has become conventionalized differently in dressage and academia such that scoring skews differently in each arena. Thank you for indulging a bona fide geek in a little score distribution discussion.

Yes.

Centerline Scores actually put up a blog post ages ago about their decision to use median scores for summaries. In a nutshell, medians are less sensitive than means to outliers (like that one terrible outlier ride where your horse spooked down the centerline and you got flustered and immediately went off course and hadn’t had a chance to visit the port-a-potty before your test so you chose to use your pelvic muscles for bladder control rather than using any actual seat aids … not that that’s ever happened to me :o).

Anyway, everyone has a bad ride now and then, and I can understand wanting to minimize negative outliers. But I suspect that the overall nature of dressage scoring also impacts the median scores that most riders earn at any level that they ride many tests in, given that people tend to move up to the next level once they’ve started earning higher scores at their current level (>70% is a common rule of thumb). I would guess that most amateur riders accumulate far more low scores than high ones at any given level and don’t have stellar medians.

At one point it looked like Centerline Scores was going to use its blog to post little analyses of the big dataset of scores they’ve compiled. But unfortunately that seems to have fizzled out very quickly.

I would really like to know who advised her to ride… I am sure she has a trainer…

3 Likes