Doing business with JILL BURNELL? BEWARE.

[Renascence]

I am sorry to agree that I have observed most hunter riders, which is RW’s market, could care less, and are not knowledgable about papers or breeding. They care about whether the horse can go out and win at whatever level they are showing right now. We all know that it is usually the hunter trainers who make up a hunter to whatever level it reaches and then sells it. If one has managed to do that with a RW, and they even know it is a RW, they are probably going to brag that it is a RW because JB has created a market for RW hunters, even though apparently most are not even old enough to show off the line. Hopefully for their sakes, the people with RWs end up with horses big and powerful enough to excell at actual hunter performance.

I think the important thing is to warn people of the seemingly atrocious horsekeeping, and apparent dicy viable semen delivery, the documented fraud judgements, and they can make their own choice as to whether they want to get involved with breeding or buying or leasing to JB.

[TrueColours]

I think the important thing is to warn people of the seemingly atrocious horsekeeping, and apparent dicy viable semen delivery, the documented fraud judgements, and they can make their own choice as to whether they want to get involved with breeding or buying or leasing to JB.

Exactly this without going off on totally unrelated tangents way out into left field … :yes:

I had someone come to see my Redwine filly today. I point blank asked if she was aware of the “issues” surrounding Jill Burnell / Redwine / Gray Fox Farm and she said “No. Should I?” and “Do any of those issues affect this filly at all?” and I said “No” and she responded:

“Why should I care then?”

And that is it in a proverbial nutshell and this is a long time trainer on the “A” circuit up here who has been around for many years and has some of the top horses around here

So - by all means continue to alert MO’s, potential buyers, trainers, etc about dealing with Jill directly, but to state that all offspring by her stallions will be indelibly tainted for the rest of their lives and no one will want them is a little “out there” to be honest …

[3Dogs]

[QUOTE=TrueColours;6560834]
Okay - this make “0” logical sense to me … :no:

If I have paperwork in hand for my Redwine 2 year old mare that I currently have for sale, it shows me as the breeder and the current owner, the paperwork and description matches the filly standing in front of me, the buyer loves her type / movement / jump / appearance / etc quite frankly they wont care who the sire / dam line is - they are buying the animal standing in front of them and not the papers.

Also remember that probably 90-95% of the buyers are riders and not breeders, so the possible issues of breeding that animal down the road and there possibly being some mix up due to Jill’s bookkeeping doesnt even enter their minds. They dont CARE who the sire or dam are - they care the youngster in front of them moves and jumps a “10” and they can win with it. Any possible breeding / bloodline issues are SO many years down the road, and not under their watch at all - they simply wont even think about it, let alone care

I think so many of you are thinking as “breeders” and what matters to you in your purchasing decision, you lose sight of the fact that there is a whole 'nuther world out there that probably comprise 90-95% of the buying population and they DONT CARE what issues there are with Jill in the breeding end of things

IMO only. Others may think differently …[/

TC…sorry …nonsense! First off, most buyers of potential HUNTER foals? If such a thing? Are buying for Hunter Breeding! Everyone else is buying their HUNTERS from their trainers who go to Europe! Second, there are not enough progeny of any of JB’s stallions to KNOW if they produce either a. A perfect 3 foot Ammie horse OR b. a future Hunter Derby horse! My “humble opinion” is that dazzle dazzle and great marketing and cheap stallions fees go a LONG way here when fact is the whole “hunter” thing is so poorly documented.
Some of us DO look for real statistics…and judging a FOAL that “jumps a 10”. ??? Maybe I misread that comment.
I do know from years at hunter shows…decades …that most TOP hunters …depending on your goal…are by JUMPER bred stallions. But that is based on the pitiful data we have. And the mare makes the critical difference!
This thread has gone on a long time! People’s breeding choices or purchases are their own decisions. But as said, why support a crook when there are so many honest stallion owners out there?

[Laurierace]

[QUOTE=3Dogs;6561590]

[QUOTE=TrueColours;6560834]Okay - this make “0” logical sense to me … :no:

If I have paperwork in hand for my Redwine 2 year old mare that I currently have for sale, it shows me as the breeder and the current owner, the paperwork and description matches the filly standing in front of me, the buyer loves her type / movement / jump / appearance / etc quite frankly they wont care who the sire / dam line is - they are buying the animal standing in front of them and not the papers.

Also remember that probably 90-95% of the buyers are riders and not breeders, so the possible issues of breeding that animal down the road and there possibly being some mix up due to Jill’s bookkeeping doesnt even enter their minds. They dont CARE who the sire or dam are - they care the youngster in front of them moves and jumps a “10” and they can win with it. Any possible breeding / bloodline issues are SO many years down the road, and not under their watch at all - they simply wont even think about it, let alone care

I think so many of you are thinking as “breeders” and what matters to you in your purchasing decision, you lose sight of the fact that there is a whole 'nuther world out there that probably comprise 90-95% of the buying population and they DONT CARE what issues there are with Jill in the breeding end of things

IMO only. Others may think differently …[/
TC…sorry …nonsense! First off, most buyers of potential HUNTER foals? If such a thing? Are buying for Hunter Breeding! Everyone else is buying their HUNTERS from their trainers who go to Europe! Second, there are not enough progeny of any of JB’s stallions to KNOW if they produce either a. A perfect 3 foot Annie horse OR b. a future Hunter Derby horse! My “humble opinion” is that dazzle dazzle and great marketing and cheap stallions fees go a LONG way here when fact is the whole “hunter” thing is so poorly documented.
Some of us DO look for real statistics…and judging a FOAL that “jumps a 10”. ??? Maybe I misread that comment.
This thread has gone on a long time! People’s breeding choices or purchases are their own decisions. But as said, why support a crook when there are so many honest stallion owners…wit
Out there![/QUOTE]

The bolded really is what this thread is all about. Garbage, dead chickens etc are just distractions from the real message.

[TrueColours]

3 Dogs - where did you get that I had a Redwine FOAL for sale? I clearly stated that she is a 2 year old … So yes - her movement and jump for the hunter ring can be accurately assessed at this age …

And that is where we stand right now. She wants to see her through a jump chute (so do I!!! ) and then we’ll go from there

[runwayz]

Maybe because you just said you had someone come to look at your RW filly? Thats what I got too, that she was for sale.

[lauriep]

[QUOTE=3Dogs;6561590]

[QUOTE=TrueColours;6560834]Okay - this make “0” logical sense to me … :no:

If I have paperwork in hand for my Redwine 2 year old mare that I currently have for sale, it shows me as the breeder and the current owner, the paperwork and description matches the filly standing in front of me, the buyer loves her type / movement / jump / appearance / etc quite frankly they wont care who the sire / dam line is - they are buying the animal standing in front of them and not the papers.

Also remember that probably 90-95% of the buyers are riders and not breeders, so the possible issues of breeding that animal down the road and there possibly being some mix up due to Jill’s bookkeeping doesnt even enter their minds. They dont CARE who the sire or dam are - they care the youngster in front of them moves and jumps a “10” and they can win with it. Any possible breeding / bloodline issues are SO many years down the road, and not under their watch at all - they simply wont even think about it, let alone care

I think so many of you are thinking as “breeders” and what matters to you in your purchasing decision, you lose sight of the fact that there is a whole 'nuther world out there that probably comprise 90-95% of the buying population and they DONT CARE what issues there are with Jill in the breeding end of things

IMO only. Others may think differently …[/

TC…sorry …nonsense! First off, most buyers of potential HUNTER foals? If such a thing? Are buying for Hunter Breeding! Everyone else is buying their HUNTERS from their trainers who go to Europe! Second, there are not enough progeny of any of JB’s stallions to KNOW if they produce either a. A perfect 3 foot Ammie horse OR b. a future Hunter Derby horse! My “humble opinion” is that dazzle dazzle and great marketing and cheap stallions fees go a LONG way here when fact is the whole “hunter” thing is so poorly documented.
Some of us DO look for real statistics…and judging a FOAL that “jumps a 10”. ??? Maybe I misread that comment.
I do know from years at hunter shows…decades …that most TOP hunters …depending on your goal…are by JUMPER bred stallions. But that is based on the pitiful data we have. And the mare makes the critical difference!
This thread has gone on a long time! People’s breeding choices or purchases are their own decisions. But as said, why support a crook when there are so many honest stallion owners out there?[/QUOTE]

3Dogs, I don’t know where you get the idea that people who buy hunter type foals buy them primarily for HB prospects. Of the HUNDREDS of this type foal produced every year, so very few show up in the HB ring. Most of those foals are bought by amateurs who want a high quality animal but can’t afford an adult. Most could care less about HB. They keep them at home or board them, whatever, and grow them out until they are ready to be ridden. And that is where the breakdown often comes. They realize they don’t have the knowledge to break them, and can’t afford to send them to someone who can. We hear of it ALL the time, get the calls from the owners who are STUCK and want us to do it for peanuts. But the numbers in the HB ring simply don’t bear out your supposition.

Secondly, the Redwines produced in the US are only 4 this year, and there are only a few of those. How the heck could their talent be documented? You make it sound like they have tried and failed and that is that! Why don’t you sit back and wait a couple of years before pontificating that they will only be 3’ or less. We all know you don’t like the stallion, for whatever reasons, but you also have never had one, much less several, in your possession to study and test. As we have. So, I really don’t think you have a leg to stand on here. You have decreed more than once that Apiro is THE stallion, yet he only has one offspring competing. I’m sure they will be nice hunters, but the DOCUMENTATION you speak of isn’t there for his kids, either.

The Redwine kids, and the Apiros, Just The Bests, Westportes, etc., will all be judged on their merit IF and WHEN they get to the show ring and get that chance. All of that remains to be seen.

[Noms]

[QUOTE=lauriep;6561916]

[QUOTE=3Dogs;6561590]

3Dogs, I don’t know where you get the idea that people who buy hunter type foals buy them primarily for HB prospects. Of the HUNDREDS of this type foal produced every year, so very few show up in the HB ring. Most of those foals are bought by amateurs who want a high quality animal but can’t afford an adult. Most could care less about HB. They keep them at home or board them, whatever, and grow them out until they are ready to be ridden. And that is where the breakdown often comes. They realize they don’t have the knowledge to break them, and can’t afford to send them to someone who can. We hear of it ALL the time, get the calls from the owners who are STUCK and want us to do it for peanuts. But the numbers in the HB ring simply don’t bear out your supposition.

Secondly, the Redwines produced in the US are only 4 this year, and there are only a few of those. How the heck could their talent be documented? You make it sound like they have tried and failed and that is that! Why don’t you sit back and wait a couple of years before pontificating that they will only be 3’ or less. We all know you don’t like the stallion, for whatever reasons, but you also have never had one, much less several, in your possession to study and test. As we have. So, I really don’t think you have a leg to stand on here. You have decreed more than once that Apiro is THE stallion, yet he only has one offspring competing. I’m sure they will be nice hunters, but the DOCUMENTATION you speak of isn’t there for his kids, either.

The Redwine kids, and the Apiros, Just The Bests, Westportes, etc., will all be judged on their merit IF and WHEN they get to the show ring and get that chance. All of that remains to be seen.[/QUOTE]

Bolding is mine.

There are quite a few Just the Best kids competing and doing well. There is an approved Apiro son in Germany, and also quite a few Apiro offspring in Europe doing very well in jumper classes. There is no guessing when it comes to these stallions and their ability to produce offspring that can jump and jump well. There is no guesing because you can look to their pedigree and see the athletic jumping stallions in their lineage, Apriro has the great Argentinus/Pilot. No guessing at all, however when you dont have those great jumping bloodlines, well then you certainly do have to wait and see.

[TrueColours]

No guessing at all, however when you dont have those great jumping bloodlines, well then you certainly do have to wait and see.

Without taking this thread into a totally different direction, it would have been fun if Rotspon or Rubinstein had been purchased / campaigned by a top hunter trainer in the US and then in later years, would they have become known as a “top” hunter sire??? That could also sire dressage horses out of the right mare?

I bred my Nightlight (TB) mare to Bliss MF who is Balou du Rouet / Argentinus in his bloodlines. I loved the stallion, loved everything about him and the bloodlines SHOULD come forward into athletic ability but until he actually gets to the show ring, no one knows if he will have the bravery, ability, technique, desire, etc to make it to a top hunter or jumper or event horse. And that is the Big “?” when buying babies or breeding them isnt it ?

And if “all” the offspring by XX or XXX or XXXX are capable of is the 3’ division and they are happy, attractive individuals that can take a joke and do their jobs for their Ammy owners, there is a steady demand for horses that fit into that category too …

Back to the subject at hand so we dont go off on totally unrelated tangents

Are there any updates at all with the work being done behind the scenes?

[PINE_TREE_FARM_SC]

[QUOTE=lauriep;6561916]

[QUOTE=3Dogs;6561590]

. You have decreed more than once that Apiro is THE stallion, yet he only has one offspring competing. I’m sure they will be nice hunters, but the DOCUMENTATION you speak of isn’t there for his kids, either.

The Redwine kids, and the Apiros, Just The Bests, Westportes, etc., will all be judged on their merit IF and WHEN they get to the show ring and get that chance. All of that remains to be seen.[/QUOTE]

Just the Best has produced performance horses for years. There are several Westportes competing this year and winning. and I’m quite sure there is more than one Apiro showing over fences in the US. He had foal crops in Europe as well as in the US.

So it’s not really a question of IF and WHEN. Perhaps as the number of Westporte’s and Apiro’s showing increases better judgement can be made on their abilities but what’s out there now is doing well.

[Mara]

[QUOTE=lauriep;6561916]

[QUOTE=3Dogs;6561590]

3Dogs, I don’t know where you get the idea that people who buy hunter type foals buy them primarily for HB prospects. Of the HUNDREDS of this type foal produced every year, so very few show up in the HB ring. Most of those foals are bought by amateurs who want a high quality animal but can’t afford an adult. Most could care less about HB. They keep them at home or board them, whatever, and grow them out until they are ready to be ridden. And that is where the breakdown often comes. They realize they don’t have the knowledge to break them, and can’t afford to send them to someone who can. We hear of it ALL the time, get the calls from the owners who are STUCK and want us to do it for peanuts. But the numbers in the HB ring simply don’t bear out your supposition.

Secondly, the Redwines produced in the US are only 4 this year, and there are only a few of those. How the heck could their talent be documented? You make it sound like they have tried and failed and that is that! Why don’t you sit back and wait a couple of years before pontificating that they will only be 3’ or less. We all know you don’t like the stallion, for whatever reasons, but you also have never had one, much less several, in your possession to study and test. As we have. So, I really don’t think you have a leg to stand on here. You have decreed more than once that Apiro is THE stallion, yet he only has one offspring competing. I’m sure they will be nice hunters, but the DOCUMENTATION you speak of isn’t there for his kids, either.

The Redwine kids, and the Apiros, Just The Bests, Westportes, etc., will all be judged on their merit IF and WHEN they get to the show ring and get that chance. All of that remains to be seen.[/QUOTE]

Important to note also that the connections of Apiro, Just The Best, and Westporte do not rip off their breeding clientele, vets, feed stores, etc., and that their checks to the registries aren’t made of rubber.

[Mardi]

@3Dogs;6561590

TC…sorry …nonsense! First off, most buyers of potential HUNTER foals? Some of us DO look for real statistics…and judging a FOAL that “jumps a 10”. ??? Maybe I misread that comment.

My goodness. Re-read TC’s post again (and what you had quoted).
It says "They dont CARE who the sire or dam are - they care the youngster in front of them moves and jumps a “10” and they can win with it. "

Youngster, not foal.

BTW, foals do show their jumping style at a very young age. Watch them at inspections when they jump over the poles as their mom is lead around the triangle. Their jumping style is like a fingerprint, and will stay with them all their lives.

[Lynnwood]

[QUOTE=Mara;6562295]

Important to note also that the connections of Apiro, Just The Best, and Westporte do not rip off their breeding clientele, vets, feed stores, etc., and that their checks to the registries aren’t made of rubber.[/QUOTE]

I’ll second this. I don’t care if Redwine or the rest of her stallions and I happen to like Romantic Star quite a bit. Were throwing 100% division and derby winners every time I’d not breed to them because of Jill Burnell’s prior actions and history period. They end up owned by someone else and I’d consider it.

[lauriep]

To be clear, Lynwood’s quote didn’t come from me. Not sure how my name got attached.

[Renascence]

I wonder if Elizabeth Mandrino of Amber Hill might weigh in over here about her positive or negative dealings with Jill Burnell. She just had a breeding question thread shut down on her over in Hunters. Apparently she owns a 2 yo Federalist colt she may have been breeding to her pony mare of unknown breeding.

[Lynnwood]

[QUOTE=lauriep;6562570]
To be clear, Lynwood’s quote didn’t come from me. Not sure how my name got attached.[/QUOTE]

Truth it was Mara’s quote I don’t know how it got assigned to you fixed I think.

[3Dogs]

[QUOTE=Renascence;6562736]
I wonder if Elizabeth Mandrino of Amber Hill might weigh in over here about her positive or negative dealings with Jill Burnell. She just had a breeding question thread shut down on her over in Hunters. Apparently she owns a 2 yo Federalist colt she may have been breeding to her pony mare of unknown breeding.[/QUOTE]

Oh Please Please Ranascence - don’t invite EM/Amber Hill over here :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

Birds of a feather FLOCK together :lol:

I guess you mean the one she is “looking for” ???

[Renascence]

:lol:
I could not resist connecting those dots:lol and it is somewhat on topic:lol:

[Prime_Time_Rider]

[QUOTE=lauriep;6561916]

[QUOTE=3Dogs;6561590]

3Dogs, I don’t know where you get the idea that people who buy hunter type foals buy them primarily for HB prospects. Of the HUNDREDS of this type foal produced every year, so very few show up in the HB ring. Most of those foals are bought by amateurs who want a high quality animal but can’t afford an adult. Most could care less about HB. They keep them at home or board them, whatever, and grow them out until they are ready to be ridden. And that is where the breakdown often comes. They realize they don’t have the knowledge to break them, and can’t afford to send them to someone who can. We hear of it ALL the time, get the calls from the owners who are STUCK and want us to do it for peanuts. But the numbers in the HB ring simply don’t bear out your supposition.

I couldn’t agree with you more! When I ask most amateurs about the bloodlines of their six figure hunters they give me a blank look and don’t know and don’t care! The market for hunter prospects is primarily amateurs who want a high quality performance horse that can’t afford or don’t want to pay the high cost of an imported WB ready to go show.

[runwayz]

Most amateurs with 6 figure hunters also give you a blank look when you ask them anything about their horse except what color it is.