Could the people with “stolen” pictures/Copy right infringements be included in the group of potential victims? Might help in putting together the class action suit. Just a thought.
[QUOTE=DownYonder;6559678]
when he was discovered by Linda Woltz for JB/GFF. [/QUOTE]
Oh the things you have time to look for when laid up with a sprained ankle. :lol:
Looks like it is actually Linda Mendenhall that discovered him, but I also recall JB saying on this board he was bought in an auction, so I am not sure what is correct.
I followed that link – Jill bought most of the horses on that list, other than the gelding on the bottom (which makes sense, she wouldn’t buy a gelding).
And the other 2 colts she sold back a couple years ago so they never made it over here. I do remember her talking about a partner and going to court to get sole posession of RW. That was back a few years.
[QUOTE=COTHalter44;6560532]
Oh the things you have time to look for when laid up with a sprained ankle. :lol:
Looks like it is actually Linda Mendenhall that discovered him, but I also recall JB saying on this board he was bought in an auction, so I am not sure what is correct.
http://wbstallions.net/hof-mendenhall/outsidesales.html[/QUOTE]
Yes, Linda discovered him at the auciton and as far as I know the partnership bought him throught the auction.
I remember looking up the original auction sale page in 2007, which I cannot now find, but here is a copy/paste of a post from a BB translated from German to English that states Redwine was sold at the May auction in Verden for 27,000 Euros. You’d have to look up the exchange rate for that date to know the exact sum.
07/05/2007 11:19 # 2
Kathrin
PREMIUM member
“Redwine but last weekend was sold in Verden at the May auction. He went for 27,000 euro in the USA.”
[QUOTE=Indy-lou;6560699]
I remember looking up the original auction sale page in 2007, which I cannot now find, but here is a copy/paste of a post from a BB translated from German to English that states Redwine was sold at the May auction in Verden for 27,000 Euros. You’d have to look up the exchange rate for that date to know the exact sum.
07/05/2007 11:19 # 2
Kathrin
PREMIUM member
“Redwine but last weekend was sold in Verden at the May auction. He went for 27,000 euro in the USA.”[/QUOTE]
If you write and look at that do not forget to add the auction fee and taxes to that auction price. Plus importation costs for a stallion.
So roughly 35,000 us dollars. Plus import fees.
[QUOTE=Fairview Horse Center;6559712]
I am still shocked at how many people “lose” their horse’s history, and Redwine’s offspring may have further reason - to not get drawn into any problems.[/QUOTE]
It has nothing to do with Jill. People want to be able to lose whatever history they choose on a horse, and usually begin by getting a new USEF number, changing the name, etc.
Sellers want a clean slate, not the horse that “stopped with Jane Doe”, the colt that flipped on the ice, was sick for a few months, or even had an abscess.
In addition, with Redwine’s babies, buyers may worry about who they really are (sire due to semen swap?), who really legally owns them, and looking down the road at selling, with this thread as added baggage whenever the name comes up.
Right, it was Linda Mendenhall - not sure why I had remembered it as Linda W!
But I am sure I had heard that he had been standing in Mecklenburg before he was sent to the Verden auction. Since he was 7 at the time of the auction, and we know he sired foals that were registered as Mecklenburg, the timeline makes sense. I do remember thinking it interesting that Verden took an older unlicensed Hanoverian stallion for its auction.
[QUOTE=Fairview Horse Center;6560778]
It has nothing to do with Jill. People want to be able to lose whatever history they choose on a horse, and usually begin by getting a new USEF number, changing the name, etc.
Sellers want a clean slate, not the horse that “stopped with Jane Doe”, the colt that flipped on the ice, was sick for a few months, or even had an abscess.
In addition, with Redwine’s babies, buyers may worry about who they really are (sire due to semen swap?), who really legally owns them, and looking down the road at selling, with this thread as added baggage whenever the name comes up.[/QUOTE]
Agree with most of this, and think more and more buyers will hesitate on buying horses sired by JB/GFF stallions once they hear of all the issues and potential risks.
Agree with most of this, and think more and more buyers will hesitate on buying horses sired by JB/GFF stallions once they hear of all the issues and potential risks.
Okay - this make “0” logical sense to me … :no:
If I have paperwork in hand for my Redwine 2 year old mare that I currently have for sale, it shows me as the breeder and the current owner, the paperwork and description matches the filly standing in front of me, the buyer loves her type / movement / jump / appearance / etc quite frankly they wont care who the sire / dam line is - they are buying the animal standing in front of them and not the papers.
Also remember that probably 90-95% of the buyers are riders and not breeders, so the possible issues of breeding that animal down the road and there possibly being some mix up due to Jill’s bookkeeping doesnt even enter their minds. They dont CARE who the sire or dam are - they care the youngster in front of them moves and jumps a “10” and they can win with it. Any possible breeding / bloodline issues are SO many years down the road, and not under their watch at all - they simply wont even think about it, let alone care
I think so many of you are thinking as “breeders” and what matters to you in your purchasing decision, you lose sight of the fact that there is a whole 'nuther world out there that probably comprise 90-95% of the buying population and they DONT CARE what issues there are with Jill in the breeding end of things
IMO only. Others may think differently …
TC - please note that I said “more and more buyers will hesitate”. I did not say ALL buyers will hesitate".
If a buyer has heard of the issues regarding JB/GFF but loves the horse anyway, she will be reassured that you have proof of identity and ownership.
But I do agree that some buyers are not going to be terribly concerned because they will feel that “those issues” occurred between JB/GFF and the breeder or foal buyer, and it is “all in the past” and so doesn’t affect them.
[QUOTE=TrueColours;6560834]
Also remember that probably 90-95% of the buyers are riders and not breeders, so the possible issues of breeding that animal down the road and there possibly being some mix up due to Jill’s bookkeeping doesnt even enter their minds. They dont CARE who the sire or dam are - they care the youngster in front of them moves and jumps a “10” and they can win with it. Any possible breeding / bloodline issues are SO many years down the road, and not under their watch at all - they simply wont even think about it, let alone care
I think so many of you are thinking as “breeders” and what matters to you in your purchasing decision, you lose sight of the fact that there is a whole 'nuther world out there that probably comprise 90-95% of the buying population and they DONT CARE what issues there are with Jill in the breeding end of things
IMO only. Others may think differently …[/QUOTE]
Nope, the breeders would never want a history lost, it is the riders and trainers that lose them. You think no horse has ever had an abscess, lameness, refused a fence, someone fell off and got hurt? The liability issue is huge with the crazy courts in the US. They may find that the seller sold a defective horse due to a slightly swollen leg, that happened 3 years ago, and somebody found the records.
A stop can be that the seller sold a dirty quitter without disclosing. Who knows what non-horsey jurrors will do? Better to start with a clean slate? 
Who knows what non-horsey jurrors will do? Better to start with a clean slate?
But where is the slate “dirty” ???
Maybe there are some / a few / many / a couple of offspring that have the wrong parentage and maybe some / all / most of them belong to Jill and are within her breeding program and maybe some got the wrong semen, but surely to God no one is saying that every single foal that was conceived off the GFF property has to undergo strict DNA scrutiny to determine exact parentage otherwise 3-5-7-15 years down the road it may come back to bite them in the ass in a court if it is incorrect and they had no idea - as the breeder - this was the case???
Sorry - dont buy that. If there was collusion proven and an intentional goal to deceive a client - thats one thing, but to find at 10 years later that the youngster you sold really wasnt by Redwine even though your contract said you were getting Redwine semen - I cant see how anyone could or would hold you accountable or responsible for that
Has any incorrect parentage been documented? Has anyone not gotten the horse they expected to get? I think the discussion needs to stay on actual documented problems, not speculation.
Darlyn, what you are proposing will happen makes no sense to me, either, as I think the people who will actually become aware of this is pretty small. But if it does, then our Federation is even more guilty of lax record keeping than we already credit them with.
[QUOTE=DownYonder;6560808]
Right, it was Linda Mendenhall - not sure why I had remembered it as Linda W!
But I am sure I had heard that he had been standing in Mecklenburg before he was sent to the Verden auction. Since he was 7 at the time of the auction, and we know he sired foals that were registered as Mecklenburg, the timeline makes sense. I do remember thinking it interesting that Verden took an older unlicensed Hanoverian stallion for its auction.[/QUOTE]
To keep the facts right:
He was licensed in 2002 by Mecklenburg Verband
He did the 30 (2003) and 70 (2004) day test at Redefin with good scores
He has in the FN Database 22 offspring registered for shows. Not too bad for Eastern Germany.
4 of them competed in 2012 with success. 2 of those in jumping classes, two in dressage classes one including level 3 placings.
He has a licensed son (also Hengstbuch I) in Germany.
[QUOTE=TrueColours;6560924]
But where is the slate “dirty” ???
Maybe there are some / a few / many / a couple of offspring that have the wrong parentage and maybe some / all / most of them belong to Jill and are within her breeding program and maybe some got the wrong semen, but surely to God no one is saying that every single foal that was conceived off the GFF property has to undergo strict DNA scrutiny to determine exact parentage otherwise 3-5-7-15 years down the road it may come back to bite them in the ass in a court if it is incorrect and they had no idea - as the breeder - this was the case???
Sorry - dont buy that. If there was collusion proven and an intentional goal to deceive a client - thats one thing, but to find at 10 years later that the youngster you sold really wasnt by Redwine even though your contract said you were getting Redwine semen - I cant see how anyone could or would hold you accountable or responsible for that[/QUOTE]
Losing the history has nothing to do with Redwine or Jill, or this thread. It is what I have seen MANY buyers do, when buying ANY type of horse.
[QUOTE=lauriep;6560947]Has any incorrect parentage been documented? Has anyone not gotten the horse they expected to get? I think the discussion needs to stay on actual documented problems, not speculation.
Darlyn, what you are proposing will happen makes no sense to me, either, as I think the people who will actually become aware of this is pretty small. [/QUOTE]
Anyone who has been listening to the legal system ads etc., knows that in this country, if something happens that you don’t want to take responsibility for - the horse does not work out, goes lame before a decade of ownership, etc, you don’t have to take responsibility for your choice, or a decision you make.
If something in life is not perfect, just start a lawsuit. Hungry lawyers need to pay off their education loans, and jurrors have no clue that a horse may slip and go lame. It MUST be someone else’s fault.
It also happens because the trainer selling the $100,000 horse may not want a buyer to know they bought it for $5000 from a field a year ago, and on the internet, you can search and find things.
No one also has to know the horse is not going to make it at XYZ level jumpers. It was “imported” doncha know, and a really good prospect for that level…
Just change the name, lose the papers, and you have a clean slate.
[QUOTE=Fairview Horse Center;6561106]
Losing the history has nothing to do with Redwine or Jill, or this thread. It is what I have seen MANY buyers do, when buying ANY type of horse.
Anyone who has been listening to the legal system ads etc., knows that in this country, if something happens that you don’t want to take responsibility for - the horse does not work out, goes lame before a decade of ownership, etc, you don’t have to take responsibility for your choice, or a decision you make.
If something in life is not perfect, just start a lawsuit. Hungry lawyers need to pay off their education loans, and jurrors have no clue that a horse may slip and go lame. It MUST be someone else’s fault.
It also happens because the trainer selling the $100,000 horse may not want a buyer to know they bought it for $5000 from a field a year ago, and on the internet, you can search and find things.
No one also has to know the horse is not going to make it at XYZ level jumpers. It was “imported” doncha know, and a really good prospect for that level…
Just change the name, lose the papers, and you have a clean slate.[/QUOTE]
That is not what we are discussing. We are talking about people doing that with REDWINE/RS/ALOHA offspring, based only on the shit going down about their owner. THAT is what I do not see happening. All the rest that you mention has no bearing on this discussion.
Additionally, aside from the imports regularly getting their papers “lost” and so having to create new identities, I don’t think the ID changes are nearly as rampant as you indicate. Name changes happen all the time, and our Federation doesn’t seem to be able to track a horse through subsequent name changes. But these are not mainly done to conceal identity, but to “personalize” a new purchase. I don’t agree with it, but it is not as nefarious as you think.
[QUOTE=lauriep;6561145]
That is not what we are discussing. We are talking about people doing that with REDWINE/RS/ALOHA offspring, based only on the shit going down about their owner. THAT is what I do not see happening. All the rest that you mention has no bearing on this discussion.[/QUOTE]
My statements were in response to
it will be interesting to see how they fare as a group in performance.
I said we may never know the answer to that, as so many horses lose their papers/history.
