Doing business with JILL BURNELL? BEWARE.

Well, this is totally off topic in regards to JB/GFF. However, I just can’t not respond to this post! Yes, it is true that the vast majority of vet students can’t handle a horse, cow or pig. But they will also never need to in their careers…they will be small animal vets (75% of graduates), researchers, work for drug companies, etc. Yes, that will make them seem “incompetent” to you working in the barns as they will not know how to put on a halter, run a cow into a squeeze chute, lip snare a pig, etc. These students did not have the luxury to grow up on farms…that does not make them incompetent vets lacking common sense…just makes them not knowledgable with handling large animals. Do you know how to restrain a parrot? Restrain a snake? Get blood from a turtle? Bet not. I would not call you someone without common sense…just no knowledge of how to handle an exotic animal.

Every classmate of mine that became an equine vet had grown up with horses…some English, some Western. Every classmate that became a livestock vet grew up with cows and pigs. Every classmate that grew up with birds and snakes went into exotic medicine. It is just what you are familiar with.

For the poster regarding a shortage of large animal vets…that is true. As more women enter this field we want decent working hours, decent working conditions, decent wage. It is dramatically changing the world of veterinary medicine. These women want to work AND raise their families. Back in the days of only male vets working 60+hr work weeks was the norm but they didn’t also try to raise their families…they were just the bread winners. That is changing…as it must.

In regards to the poster that feels that new vets can’t palpate and only rely on U/S…that is trueto an extent. Palpation, physical exam and diagnostic skills improve with experience. So yes, someone out 10 years is much more skilled than the recent grad. However, we are graduating and taking CE in the world of modern medicine and that includes imaging tool. Personally, I would much rather an U/S that counts follicles, measures follicles, recognizes CLs, uterine edema, uterine fluid, etc. when using frozen semen with no LFG that cost $1K. These tools have advanced our skills and success as veterinarians…and yes they do have a higher fee.

[QUOTE=daisycutter87;6792864]
As an Animal Science graduate who did not persue a vet career; I can honestly say it’s a SCARY sight to see “what” actually makes it into vet school. The majority of students who persue vet school (and I say the majority) are extremely book smart but have zero common sense when it comes to working with large animals ex: horses, cattle, sheep, etc. The majority of them have a dog or cat at home but have never touched a large animal.They can barely put a halter on a horse, they are extremely smart. They go to college and study the “science” of animals in a classroom and rarely actually learns the necessary animal skills to work with them.

I went to school and graduated with an associates and a bachelors in A.S. because I had worked with large animals since I was very young and I wanted to make a career out of it. I have a lot of common sense large animal knowledge that I gathered frommy years and years of working with these animals. I was never good in a classroom or studying and I hated working in lab conditions. I was the type of student who’d much rather be in the barn getting my hands dirty. With that being said; I had no interest in vet school because I never had a 4.0 GPA and I was never going to make it in if I applied. When we were working in the barns, hands-on, with any animals I always found myself assisting the non-experienced pre-vet students with any and all of the activities they had to do. They were simply-put: clueless. I wasn’t the only one to notice;it was an ongoing joke with my fellow classmates about the pre-vet students. Extremely book smart but no skills when it actually came to working with the animals they would one day be working on.

The above story doesn’t cover all vet students; there are a handful out there who have the entire package: brains and real-life working with animal skills.

The fact remains and it’s the honest truth: the majority of vet students or recent graduates are in-fact pretty “dumb”; you’d probably be scared for your horse’s life if you witnessed their “skills”[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Acertainsmile;6794417]

Mardi, you are preaching to the choir, this was my point 2 weeks ago. [/QUOTE]

Sorry for time delay… have been away from this thread and am getting caught up. :slight_smile:

[QUOTE=Fairview Horse Center;6794289]
actually you are missing someone whose “name” has been drug thru the mud repeatedly on this thread - COTH poster “JB” who has nothing to do with Jill Burnell.[/QUOTE]

I think it goes without saying that she is guilty of something. I mean seriously! Who would pick that as a user name unless they were guilty? :wink:

Because that makes as much sense as the idiocy I’ve read on this thread.

I love the idea that an older stallion to be seen and have a PPE to be competently purchased. I’m not sure what people think is being purchased here, but it’s fertility, not jumping 1.5m. That can be handled by a performance guarantee in the contact as easily as anything, and probably more standard in deals around older established stallions than anything else. If the horse shows up thin and needing his feet done, that is unfortunate, but he’s still a breeding stallion. Just one in need of TLC.

Aaaannnnddd…the wheels on the conspiracy train go round and round…round and round…round and round!

[QUOTE=Mardi;6794346]

That said, you ask how is she to know the condition of the stallion when he is in California and she is not. The answer is that she goes and looks before buying him. It’s a big investment so it wouldn’t be unusual for her to travel to have a look. Or if that’s not possible, the pre-purchase exam done by her vet of choice would have revealed his health. Good or bad.

Providing there was a PPE…and those who have top breeding programs would have certainly had one done; assessing his reproductive health would be a priority.[/QUOTE]

I’m baffled by all the people that seem to think a buyer would have had to make the trek out to see him in person. Thousands and thousands of horses are bought sight unseen every single year - I can’t see what’s irresponsible about that. As for vetting him - really? He’s a known quantity, a late teens stallion with multiple approvals, numerous foals on the ground and a past performance record, I’m really not sure what the purpose of a vet check would be at this point. As for the person that thinks RS would be valued in the six figures region, I’m honestly baffled that anyone would think his value is even close to that. I love RS, I have even bred a mare to him, but he’s not a six figure horse, not even close.

[QUOTE=Galileo1998;6794484]
I’m baffled by all the people that seem to think a buyer would have had to make the trek out to see him in person. Thousands and thousands of horses are bought sight unseen every single year - I can’t see what’s irresponsible about that. As for vetting him - really? He’s a known quantity, a late teens stallion with multiple approvals, numerous foals on the ground and a past performance record, I’m really not sure what the purpose of a vet check would be at this point. As for the person that thinks RS would be valued in the six figures region, I’m honestly baffled that anyone would think his value is even close to that. I love RS, I have even bred a mare to him, but he’s not a six figure horse, not even close.[/QUOTE]

But knowing Jills reputation and panache for horse care why would you NOT do the leg work to insure your investment was viable…seems like good old fashion common sense to me. Perhaps Rhonda did in fact do that and is also now a victim who knows.

[QUOTE=Lynnwood;6794502]
But knowing Jills reputation and panache for horse care why would you NOT do the leg work to insure your investment was viable…seems like good old fashion common sense to me. Perhaps Rhonda did in fact do that and is also now a victim who knows.[/QUOTE]

This.

so wait. folks are screaming from the rooftops that JB should never ever own a horse and yet in the next breath say that only an idiot would buy a horse from her? where do you hope the horses go?

This thread is making me long for the civility and restraint shown by the participants in the Oldenburg Wars.

[QUOTE=mbm;6794534]
so wait. folks are screaming from the rooftops that JB should never ever own a horse and yet in the next breath say that only an idiot would buy a horse from her? where do you hope the horses go?[/QUOTE]

A conspiracy minded individual might suggest their own barns. Luckily, I am not conspiracy minded and would never.

No one ever said only an idiot would buy a horse from her…exactly where are you reading that? It’s only being said that at this point in time, (or at least since this thread was started) you might want to do due diligence if you were going to purchase something sight unseen. Makes sense to me.

Just to add to the new vets vs old, I do love that the older vets can draw upon their experience, however, some just are not good at keeping up with the latest research whereas that is where the newbies are starting from. Dr. Kellon’s latest newsletter seems to suggest going away from feeding grain to broodmares/babies altogether, for instance…

[QUOTE=Galileo1998;6794484]
I’m baffled by all the people that seem to think a buyer would have had to make the trek out to see him in person. Thousands and thousands of horses are bought sight unseen every single year - I can’t see what’s irresponsible about that. As for vetting him - really? He’s a known quantity, a late teens stallion with multiple approvals, numerous foals on the ground and a past performance record, I’m really not sure what the purpose of a vet check would be at this point. As for the person that thinks RS would be valued in the six figures region, I’m honestly baffled that anyone would think his value is even close to that. I love RS, I have even bred a mare to him, but he’s not a six figure horse, not even close.[/QUOTE]

Quoting this because it bears repeating.

Just because YOU (the muckraker COTH you, that is) think it’s wrong doesn’t make it so.

[QUOTE=Acertainsmile;6794539]
No one ever said only an idiot would buy a horse from her…exactly where are you reading that?[/QUOTE]

Thanks for injecting common sense. This thread has certainly gotten weird with certain people creating straw men to attack other posters :no:

DMK’s post has gotten tons of likes, and s/he is obviously a popular poster, but let me dare to be the dissenting voice. No attorney has an obligation to defend an unethical client in a civil suit. Where the heck do you get that idea? Also, I have no problems with the vet’s report for the most part. It is mostly observations and reporting what Jill said. No problem with that. But what are the vet’s credentials that allow her to opine that Jill is willing and capable to provide for the horses? It sounds like something a social worker would write in a child protective services report :confused:

P.S. I’m not a muckraker.

Maybe the word idiot wasn’t used, but it has certainly been implied. And it HAS been said that anyone buying a horse from her is bad for enabling her, rather than 1)getting a horse out of there or 2)just buying a horse you happen to like.

For the holier than thous, it is a different world today, and THOUSANDS of sales a year happen solely by video and vet report. That is the way of the world, so don’t go all righteous. If you sell any number of horses at all, that aren’t performance age (or even some that are!), you will experience this. It doesn’t make the buyer right or wrong, good or bad. It is what they do.

A question for lawyers:

If a potential client comes to you asking you to take their case, how much research (beyond what the client tells you) do you do? If you know nothing or next to nothing about the client, but have some interest in the basic subject of their case, does it make a difference in your approach?

[QUOTE=saje;6794963]
A question for lawyers:

If a potential client comes to you asking you to take their case, how much research (beyond what the client tells you) do you do? If you know nothing or next to nothing about the client, but have some interest in the basic subject of their case, does it make a difference in your approach?[/QUOTE]

Here is a start. Rule 11 of the Federal Rule of Civil Procedure (every attorney knows what Rule 11 is) says this:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/frcp/rule_11

[QUOTE=Acertainsmile;6794539]
It’s only being said that at this point in time, (or at least since this thread was started) you might want to do due diligence if you were going to purchase something sight unseen. Makes sense to me.[/QUOTE]

Really ??

I purchase foals in utero. Kind of hard to do PPE’s or due diligence.
Deals are made cross country based on performance without the buyers every actually seeing the horse. SOP

Thanks but I need a cliff notes version - I can’t face wading through all that legalese on my phone.

(Traveling, no computer)

You are not alone, loshad.

[QUOTE=PINE TREE FARM SC;6794974]
Really ??

I purchase foals in utero. Kind of hard to do PPE’s or due diligence.
Deals are made cross country based on performance without the buyers every actually seeing the horse. SOP[/QUOTE]

No kidding…I’ve bought horses sight unseen, and had them bought from me. I think it bears repeating (once again) so I’ll break it down.

  1. Have some idea on who your dealing with (this goes both ways on a sale). It will usually help the transaction go smooth if you know you’re not dealing with a (take your pick here)…Liar, deadbeat, or unscrupulous person.

  2. If there are any doubts (or heck, even 4000 posts about said person on a horse forum), you may want someone else on your team to double and triple check things like, oh I don’t know…Condition of the animal if buying something presumed alive.

If buying in utero, it may also help to have someone on your team verify that the uterus actually lives, and is in possesion of the supposed seller.

So yes, there are signs out there that trouble may be brewing, not too hard to do a little research (especailly when you’ve been part of those 4000 posts.)