In response to the person who buys foals in utero. I would certainly ask for photos of the mare every few months, records of her inoculations and worming program, information on her feeding program and turnout.
[QUOTE=candico;6794639]
Just to add to the new vets vs old, I do love that the older vets can draw upon their experience, however, some just are not good at keeping up with the latest research whereas that is where the newbies are starting from. Dr. Kellon’s latest newsletter seems to suggest going away from feeding grain to broodmares/babies altogether, for instance…[/QUOTE]
and I will add a bit more to the young vs old. The above newsletter is how we get breeders starving their animals, by expecting a hard keeper to not eat grain. That “latest research” is often paid for by a company with an agenda, and wrong. Just like the “research” that says your horse will get ulcers, if not fed hay 24/7 made more than 50% of the horses in danger of laminitis from obesity.
And on that note, the term laminitis itself is now often used for bruised feet, with thousands of dollars of treatment needed, instead of the horse will be fine in a week or two, pitch him. <turnout and constant walking being the best outcome for keeping blood flow, and return to 100% even though watching a hobbling horse may not be fun> The laminitis term use though, will scare people into being willing to pay a lot more to their vet bill that month.
Horses need to be managed according to their individual needs.
Horses are all different, and older vets have seen much, which is why new vets usually join practices with older vets. Good older vets do stay current - sometimes better than ones just out of school.
That said, generally evaluating a farm and the horses, does not take latest research, or many years of experience to be competent.
[QUOTE=ise@ssl;6795129]
In response to the person who buys foals in utero. I would certainly ask for photos of the mare every few months, records of her inoculations and worming program, information on her feeding program and turnout.[/QUOTE]
I knew someone would take the bait. LOL
DMK add in utero buyers and sellers to your list please.
For those that buy In-utero foals: When doing so, do you not expect that the foal is coming out of a mare that is well cared for, nutritionally well-fed, UTD on everything, and full knowledge that that in-utero foal is coming from a very reputable business/farm. Here’s the issue I see: Jill Burnell has painted her business to other horse professionals, to be an upstanding, well maintained program.One look at the pictures will further prove that point. She has pictures of the foals and mares running through lush pastures, frolicking and looking healthy. In reality; they were living on a few acre dirt lot with no shelter and in a giant mass of horses on one small plot of land. Now we have the Humane Scoiety/animal control involved as the horses were moved to vacant land with no shelter, small paddocks, mud, etc. Horses (including several mares) have been siezed for poor body condition. It’s a known fact that she has not been caring for these horses the way they should’ve been looked after. It’sobvious these mares were not recieving theyre nutritional needs as preganant broodmares. Old pictures of broodmares from Gray Fox has turned up showing ribby mares also. If you buy an in-utero foal; that foal sticks with the mare until weaning. Now you’ve left (an obvious incompetent person) to provide adequate care for the mare during her gestation and now you’re going to rely on this same person to provide adequate care the mare and newborn foal until weaning… and you still haven’t laid eyes on the foal in person yet? I think this is how a lot of the buyers ended up recieving sickly foals.if I purchased an in-utero foal for 2013fromher, you can bet my blood would be boiling at this point. Knowing what we know now; I can’t imagine what was lacking from the broodmare/foal standpoint in the past few years of her business operation.
Over the last 15 years, I’ve bought all but 2 of my horses without traveling to see them. Primarily because they’ve been at the farthest points away from me and I can’t always just drop everything and go fly someplace, not to mention that it eats up a large portion of my usually very tight budget. In a perfect world, horses I’m interested in would be within a half a days drive from me but that rarely happens.
So, I rely heavily on videos, pictures, and recommendations from others to narrow down my choices and then make my decisions. I’ve only been “burnt” once and that was my own fault because I let my emotions for the horse over-ride what I now know were red flags and didn’t insist on a PPE first. However, lesson learned, I’ve never repeated that mistake and been very happy with my last three purchases.
[QUOTE=PINE TREE FARM SC;6795151]
I knew someone would take the bait. LOL
DMK add in utero buyers and sellers to your list please.[/QUOTE]
I really hope you are smarter in real life than what you type…if there is any lesson to be learned through all of this mess (and I would at least hope that there is) it would be that people need to check, and then double check when it comes to buying anything sight unseen from someone who has less than a stellar reputation.
If this lesson fails, people like Jill Burnell will continue to come out of the woodwork, preying on those who may be niave to their practices, but most of all, failing the horses in their care who have absoloutely no voice or recourse in the situation.
We are no longer “speculating” on Jills horse keeping practices, nor are we drinking the kool aid and thinking that these accusations about her are coming from jealous stallion owners. We are also not speculating that she has had a few of the top professionals suing for non-payment for services, etc.
If you know where and whom you are buying horses, foals, or in utero foals from thats great, there is no need to be a little paranoid and double check. If there is a shadow of a doubt than you would be a fool (yes I said it) to fork over your cash and hope for the best.
Auction Updates
Auction Items Closing This Evening, Tue Jan 22 2013:
[SUP](Note that auction closes at time indicated or approximately 5 minutes after last bid)
[/SUP]
21:10:00 EST 1 Gift Certificate for Boarding and Grooming with/at Postmore Kennels
21:25:00 EST 1 breeding to the Holsteiner stallion, Ralando II
21:40:00 EST 1 Breeding to the Knabstrupper stallion, Pegasus vom Niehaus-hof
21:55:00 EST 1 breeding to the Holsteiner stallion, Lotus T
22:10:00 EST 2 doses frozen semen from the Oldenburg stallion, Ex Libris
Tally to Date/Time of Posting
[table=“width: 70%, class: grid, align: center”]
[tr]
[td]Date[/td]
[td]Total
Winning
Bids[/td]
[td]Payments Received to Date
[SUP](Google Checkout, PayPal or other payment commissions not deducted)[/SUP][/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]January 10-16, 2013[/td]
[td]$15,379.00[/td]
[td]$9,604[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]January 17, 2013[/td]
[td]$1,650.00[/td]
[td]$1,650[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]January 18, 2013[/td]
[td]$1,750.00[/td]
[td]$1,150[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]January 19, 2013[/td]
[td]$1,064.50[/td]
[td]$730[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]January 20, 2013[/td]
[td]$1,250.00[/td]
[td]$605[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]January 21, 2013[/td]
[td]$890[/td]
[td]$245[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]TOTALS:[/td]
[td]$21,983.50[/td]
[td]$13,984[/td]
[/tr]
[/table]
[QUOTE=Acertainsmile;6795050]
-
Have some idea on who your dealing with (this goes both ways on a sale). It will usually help the transaction go smooth if you know you’re not dealing with a (take your pick here)…Liar, deadbeat, or unscrupulous person.
-
If there are any doubts (or heck, even 4000 posts about said person on a horse forum), you may want someone else on your team to double and triple check things like, oh I don’t know…Condition of the animal if buying something presumed alive. [/QUOTE]
It’s so awesome that you know that all current transactions fail this test and that everyone who is buying a horse from JB must be an idiot because clearly they are - every last one of them - rubes who never learned to enter into a transaction with a known entity in a way that can protect their interests. (Or maybe I have it wrong and you are just implying that ONE transaction in particular falls into this category?) I’m sure they all wish they had your Sooper Mad Deductive Skilz!!11!!
Wowza DMK, are you okay? Where did I say ALL current transactions fail? Maybe those who had okey dokey transactions did do their homework, crossed their t’s and dotted their i’s. Or maybe Jill decided to have a moment of clarity and do the right thing…I have no idea. No crystal ball here, just some common sense when dealing with someone like Jill Burnell.
I do think that perhaps the horse world needs to borrow some practices from other business worlds… Perhaps its time that trainers take advances and that purchasers retain a certain percentage of payment until said animal is at their doorstep?
these are both practices done in various other fields of business with high rates of possibility of fraud.
[QUOTE=Acertainsmile;6795248]
I really hope you are smarter in real life than what you type…if there is any lesson to be learned through all of this mess (and I would at least hope that there is) it would be that people need to check, and then double check when it comes to buying anything sight unseen from someone who has less than a stellar reputation.
If this lesson fails, people like Jill Burnell will continue to come out of the woodwork, preying on those who may be niave to their practices, but most of all, failing the horses in their care who have absoloutely no voice or recourse in the situation.
We are no longer “speculating” on Jills horse keeping practices, nor are we drinking the kool aid and thinking that these accusations about her are coming from jealous stallion owners. We are also not speculating that she has had a few of the top professionals suing for non-payment for services, etc.
If you know where and whom you are buying horses, foals, or in utero foals from thats great, there is no need to be a little paranoid and double check. If there is a shadow of a doubt than you would be a fool (yes I said it) to fork over your cash and hope for the best.[/QUOTE]
I think if you take a poll of those who bought inuteros or foals from JB you might find that the majority were very happy with their purchases.
That statement does not condone JB’s horsekeeping practices, but I think calling people stupid for the way they buy their horses is once again changing the direction of the thread. I’m sure there are plenty of sales where the purchaser has seen a horse in person and had problems afterwards.
[QUOTE=mbm;6795318]
I do think that perhaps the horse world needs to borrow some practices from other business worlds… Perhaps its time that trainers take advances and that purchasers retain a certain percentage of payment until said animal is at their doorstep?
these are both practices done in various other fields of business with high rates of possibility of fraud.[/QUOTE]
I do wish more people would do this. I have done it using an escrow account. I highly recommend it.
I actually said you would be stupid at this point in time without taking proper measures, let’s face it, it’s no longer a secret what her business practices are.
Not really into taking polls, but I’ve seen enough on this thread alone to know that many recieved foals in poor health, or recieved no foal, or there was actually no mare in foal (at least in JB’s possesion). Unless of course this is all make believe…
[QUOTE=Acertainsmile;6795317]
Wowza DMK, are you okay? Where did I say ALL current transactions fail? Maybe those who had okey dokey transactions did do their homework, crossed their t’s and dotted their i’s. Or maybe Jill decided to have a moment of clarity and do the right thing…I have no idea. No crystal ball here, just some common sense when dealing with someone like Jill Burnell.[/QUOTE]
Gotcha. So it’s just the one transaction you are worried about? You seem happy to speculate and wonder endlessly in the absence of oh, I don’t know… any information or facts whatsoever?
Which is why I wondered a week ago if money had actually changed hands for this horse. Seems a little suspicious that the “new” owner couldnt find out any information on him. Maybe there was a contract, and he really is in bad enough shape that she backed out of it.
ust want to make it clear that I never suspected the possible buyer (or new owner) of RS of any shady dealings, just that it was odd that she could not (to our knowledge) find out anything on his condition if she had actually purchased him.
And if in fact the stallion was actually purchased, why wouldnt the new owner go out at this point with paperwork in hand and find out his condition?
No one ever said only an idiot would buy a horse from her…exactly where are you reading that? It’s only being said that at this point in time, (or at least since this thread was started) you might want to do due diligence if you were going to purchase something sight unseen.
If there is a shadow of a doubt than you would be a fool (yes I said it) to fork over your cash and hope for the best.
You have gone on and on about how you are so worried about it, so I just wonder why you are just so darn worried? Did RS take out a loan from you to purchase the horse or is this just an amazing display of heartfelt concern for a fellow COTH poster? I mean I’m sure only the finest of motives apply!
Anyone in the know able to give us a vague update on the condition of the seized horses? Are the injuries RS received healing well?
^^^ I too would like to know the status of the horses.
I do not expect details because I know they are keeping those safe for their own reasons. Just wondering if RS is doing OK? Are the mares doing OK?
Why there isn’t more info available…
This is a contested case involving private property. Confidentiality applies to vets and the MHS and what they can and cannot make public. The seized horses are private property and the owner’s attorney is all over the case and MHS. Why would MHS jeopardize the case by revealing facts just to satisfy bystanders? The court is where information is presented and available to the public. Unless MHS attorney or other authority okays a press release.
To get the scoop requires good journalism on the ground, doing the investigating and then double checking sources. Until you can get a respectable news organization to do this work – and report – bystanders have to rely on the official statements. Or speculate and guess work - which seems to fuel some folks and this thread for pages and pages.
[QUOTE=DMK;6795402]
Gotcha. So it’s just the one transaction you are worried about? You seem happy to speculate and wonder endlessly in the absence of oh, I don’t know… any information or facts whatsoever?
You have gone on and on about how you are so worried about it, so I just wonder why you are just so darn worried? Did RS take out a loan from you to purchase the horse or is this just an amazing display of heartfelt concern for a fellow COTH poster? I mean I’m sure only the finest of motives apply![/QUOTE]
I wouldn’t call it worry, hey, not my dimes and nickles…just curiosity which seems to cover about everyone who has posted on this thread. Could you point out where I ever stated that I was “worried” about it? Sometimes it’s actually good to bring this stuff up, you know, so people can actually read and learn from others possible mistakes. Besides the frying of JB, isn’t that kind of what this entire thread is about?
DMK I think the cliche “Fool me once shame on you Fool me twice shame on me” is applicable here.
The statements made are conditional based upon past, current and sadly I’m sure future evidence that has been compiled against Mrs. Burnell.
As per Horsenut’s statement about “majority were very happy”. How are you so certain? When it has been discussed , proven and re proven over the course of 212 pages that her website and its list of sale/sold horses available in utero’s, mares and even purchasers is nothing more then a elaborate tapestry with some fragments of truth , some fantasy and out right lies, all woven together in order to create the illusion of grandeur.
I think that those that purchase horses from her for whatever reason are certainly more then free to do so. However I would also expect even prior to this particular thread that there has been enough FACTUAL evidence provided that anyone expecting to do business with her and hoping for a positive outcome without providing their own fail safes certainly would have earned a few adjectives to describe their naiveté.
We are not talking about buying horses sight unseen from a breeder or establishment of good repute. The discussion is about doing business with Jill Burnell.
