Bort 84,
I think they don’t respond because deep down they know that their reaction would be just as we suggested.
Just ask the East German women
[QUOTE=Eclectic Horseman;5127295]
Well, don’t worry about it. Neither you, nor I dare say your trainer, will ever have the opportunity to ride like that-neither a horse like that nor in an international venue like that. :winkgrin:[/QUOTE]
You probably shouldn’t make assumptions about people you don’t actually know anything about. It makes you look like an immature fool.
[QUOTE=n2dressage;5127693]
I didn’t watch all of Isabelle Werth’s video but I liked it. Her horse looks very supple and he had floppy ears. But this is the way that all of the upper level riders I’ve met and watched since being in Germany ride. Everyone warms up and rides LDR and most people say they don’t even bring their horses up into competition frame except at competitions. One of my friends made her debut at Grand Prix on her 10 yo horse she trained herself as an amateur and came in 8th place with a score of 68% and no one ahead of her was an international rider. Something seems to be working…[/QUOTE]
justa a question: if you ride a horse down all the time and only ever bring them up for the 6 minutes in the show arena - how the heck can the horse build the required muscles to do that without pain and stress? ie you never work the correct muscles and then expect the horse to use them properly?
when did training become so detached from the actual tests?
it would be like doing only squats and saying that you are training for a marathon -???
The problem with doping is not the health problems. The problem with doping is that it is CHEATING. It is no longer an athletic contest if what is being tested is who has the best chemicals…
Rolkur does exist in western!
go to Google Images and search ‘western rolkur’
Yep there are some interesting images…oh and Clinton Anderson has done rolkur
[QUOTE=MLK1;5127698]
Horsebabble,
Ummmmmm, are you kidding me? :eek: Thats why steroids ARE not allowed, because of the possible health effects. MANY of these individuals suffer from different conditions from the effects of steroid use, especially later in their life.[/QUOTE]
The vast majority never develop problems. The rules are in place to try an prevent the relatively small number that actually do occur (among other reasons).
Sorry sprithorse,
I was just using them as an example, I should have put endurance riders. 
[QUOTE=HorseBabble;5127682]
The vast majority of human athletes that dope (including steroids) never experience any negative at all whatsoever. [/QUOTE]
Are you serious? :no:
I agree. What is it that you actually know about Adelinde Corenlissen again?
I think I missed that. :lol::lol:
[QUOTE=Eclectic Horseman;5127741]
I agree. What is it that you actually know about Adelinde Corenlissen again?
I think I missed that. :lol::lol:[/QUOTE]
I think you missed the part where I didn’t say a single thing about Adelinde Corenlissen in this thread, I referred to a video posted in this thread of another rider hauling on her horse’s mouth.
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/26/sports/drug-testing-east-german-steroids-toll-they-killed-heidi.html
DRUG TESTING; East German Steroids’ Toll: ‘They Killed Heidi’
By JERE LONGMAN
Published: January 26, 2004
MAGDEBURG, Germany, Jan. 20— Andreas Krieger opened a shopping bag in his living room and spilled out his past: track and field uniforms, a scrapbook and athlete credentials from the former East Germany.
The photos on the credentials looked familiar, but the face was fuller and softer, the hair covering the ears and draping down the neck. This was Heidi Krieger, the 1986 European women’s shot-put champion, perhaps the most extreme example of the effects of an insidious, state-sponsored system of doping in East Germany.
The taking of pills and injections of anabolic steroids created virile features and heightened confusion about an already uncertain sexual identity, Krieger said, influencing a decision to have a sex-change operation in 1997 and to become known legally as Andreas.
‘‘They killed Heidi,’’ Krieger said.
More than 14 years after the fall of the Berlin Wall, and more than three years after criminal trials resulted in convictions of East Germany’s top sports official and sports doctor, Krieger and a number of other athletes are still trying to resolve legal, medical and psychological issues related to the secretive doping program that was known by the Orwellian euphemism of ‘‘supporting means.’’ Many of the athletes were minors at the time and say they were given performance-enhancing drugs without their knowledge.
Karen König, a retired swimmer, filed a civil lawsuit against the German Olympic Committee, contending that it inherited more than $2.5 million in assets from East Germany upon reunification in 1990 and thus bears responsibility to assist the former East German athletes.
She is seeking $12,500 in a test case, and as many as 140 former East German athletes, including Krieger, are deciding whether to file similar complaints. Last month, a state court in Frankfurt ruled that König’s case could proceed. Indications are that the case could be settled out of court, according to German news reports.
Jens Steinigen, König’s lawyer, said in a telephone interview that he was also exploring the possibility of suing the pharmaceutical company VEB Jenapharm, formerly state-run and now a subsidiary of the Schering AG Group. According to evidence in the criminal trials of the late 1990’s, Jenapharm produced the steroid Oral-Turinabol that was given to East German athletes.
‘‘We won’t be able to make these wrongs undone, but the athletes can still use the money for medicine or therapy,’’ Steinigen said.
As Krieger sees it, no amount of money could restore his health, which he considers harmed by steroid use and secondary effects. He experiences such intense discomfort in his hips and thighs, from lifting massive amounts of weight while on performance-enhancing drugs, that he can no longer sleep on his side. Only the mildest physical exertion is tolerable. Long unemployed, he now works two days a week as a clerk for a real estate agent.
On Tuesday, the same day that President Bush called for an end to steroid abuse in American sports in his State of the Union address, Krieger again told his own story, feeling compelled to shed more light on one of the darkest chapters in the history of performance-enhancing drugs.
As many as 10,000 East German athletes were involved in a state-sponsored attempt to build a country of 16 million into a sports power rivaling the United States and the Soviet Union, recent trials and documents of the East German secret police have revealed.
An estimated 500 to 2,000 former East German athletes are believed to be experiencing significant health problems associated with steroids, including liver tumors, heart disease, testicular and breast cancer, gynecological problems, infertility, depression and eating disorders. Some female athletes have reported miscarriages and have had children born with deformities like club feet.
In 2002, two years after the criminal trials ended, the German government established a compensation fund of $2.5 million for the doping victims, with a maximum payout of $12,500. Only 311 athletes, however, made claims – Krieger among them – by the deadline of March 31, 2003, according to Birgit Boese, a board member of Doping Victim Aid, an assistance group…read on
[QUOTE=Eclectic Horseman;5127728]
The problem with doping is not the health problems.[/QUOTE]
Exactly. Soundness and winning are NOT the sole measure of what is acceptable (unless you happen to be Ridgeback).
Thanks Equibrit! A 5% to 20% is a pretty wide range, but it still shows 80% to 95% of them never experience problems. And it’s interesting that only 3.11% actually made the claims they were entitled to make. As I said, a relatively small number.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not advocating we allow doping. I’m just pointing out that it protects a relatively small minority. Which is fine by me.
[QUOTE=Kareen;5127656]
Ridgeback you should be ashamed. You are a shame for any equestrian. Ok with Bute… Go figure. Good thing you don’t have much saying in this sport. I feel ashamed I read and write on the same bulletin board as you do. Honestly where will you ever draw a line of what is unacceptable?[/QUOTE]
:lol::lol::lol: well then get off…
Unbelievable
Huh? You are quoting me out of context. I said that doping was cheating. Are you saying that rollkur is cheating??? If not, what’s your point.
I don’t do hypotheticals! I have no problem with bute lets say a tab 24 hours before competition… I don’t care if you disagree you are entitled to your opinion. Human althetes can take certain meds before a competition and before you say the horse can’t talk blah blah blah… I do think there should be tighter guidelines for that reason. Here is the difference between many of you and me…I look at the facts and since all of them are not in and the horses are not hurt, bleeding and they are happy and like someone else said the jumpers do this, reining etc I will go on the assumption that it is fine until proven otherwise.
Some days horses can be bad and sometimes you need to get into them a little bit.
[QUOTE=Eclectic Horseman;5127854]
Huh? You are quoting me out of context. I said that doping was cheating. Are you saying that rollkur is cheating??? If not, what’s your point.[/QUOTE]
The point is there is more to what is or is not acceptable than soundness and winning.
Here is the difference between many of you and me…I look at the facts and since all of them are not in and the horses are not hurt, bleeding and they are happy and like someone else said the jumpers do this, reining etc I will go on the assumption that it is fine until proven otherwise.
What? Jumpers do it and they do it behind closed doors because they know it’s not correct. Clinton Anderson does it for submission purposes and I plain old don’t agree with it, but Clinton Anderson and Western riding are typically not held to the same standard as Dressage.
Why?
When your horse is rushing fences, what people say is that you need dressage training.
When your horse is poking is nose out on the corner or disobeying you on the trail, people say that you need dressage.
When your horse is bucking, evading, not going onto the bit, whatever, people say that you need DRESSAGE.
Now what I’m hearing is that Dressage is looking to the other disciplines to see what is okay?
Some days horses can be bad and sometimes you need to get into them a little bit.
This doesn’t help your case. I don’t like, but agree with, a momentary correction - but being ridden like these horses are being ridden is not a momentary correction. In fact, these horses must be absolutely horrible absolutely all the time during practices - who knew?
