Dutch rider Adelinde Cornelissen eliminated in dressage: Horse's mouth bleeding.

[MLK1]

Quote by ridgeback: I look at the facts and since all of them are not in and the horses are not hurt, bleeding and they are happy and like someone else said the jumpers do this, reining etc I will go on the assumption that it is fine until proven otherwise.

If you can HONESTLY look at those photos and tell me her horse is happy than thank God I am not one of your horses!

[ridgeback]

[QUOTE=MLK1;5127899]
Quote by ridgeback: I look at the facts and since all of them are not in and the horses are not hurt, bleeding and they are happy and like someone else said the jumpers do this, reining etc I will go on the assumption that it is fine until proven otherwise.

If you can HONESTLY look at those photos and tell me her horse is happy than thank God I am not one of your horses! :([/QUOTE]

LOL are you happy every moment…if you’re married are you always happy with your husband do you make your husband happy every second of the day??? Sometimes horses can be bad just like teenagers and puppies and sometimes you have to make them a little unhappy to get your point accross and for them to learn something…It’s called LIFE.

[Lex87]

Poor thing… both rider and horse! To be disqualified over something no one had control over…

[MLK1]

Ridgeback,

I am soooooo confused, I thought you said this was a training method to strengthen the horses core. NOW, you are saying it is a correction if the horse is misbehaving???

If this the case, then some of the Dutch team horses must need ALOT of correction as sometimes this goes on for almost an hour!!

Oh yeah but that is LIFE.

[Sandy_M]

[QUOTE=HorseBabble;5127731]
The vast majority never develop problems. The rules are in place to try an prevent the relatively small number that actually do occur (among other reasons).[/QUOTE]

I’m sure Barry Bonds will be relieved to hear that

[ridgeback]

[QUOTE=MLK1;5127926]
Ridgeback,

I am soooooo confused, I thought you said this was a training method to strengthen the horses core. NOW, you are saying it is a correction if the horse is misbehaving???

If this the case, then some of the Dutch team horses must need ALOT of correction as sometimes this goes on for almost an hour!!

Oh yeah but that is LIFE.[/QUOTE]

No you just don’t understand…

[MLD]

[QUOTE=ridgeback;5127580]
:lol::lol::lol: I’m sure horses would rather not have us on their backs either…GET OVER IT.[/QUOTE]

Ridgeback… back up the horsebox. I am on your side. I was making a sarcastic remark to go along with your snaffle bit sarcastic remark. You need to slow down and take a deep breath.

[Graymaresrule]

@OneGrayPony;5127877

What? Jumpers do it and they do it behind closed doors because they know it’s not correct. Clinton Anderson does it for submission purposes and I plain old don’t agree with it, but Clinton Anderson and Western riding are typically not held to the same standard as Dressage.

When CA flexes or bends a horse he RELEASES when the horse gives. The horse is expected to maintain the flexed position but as long as he doesn’t stick his nose out there is no pressure on the reins or lead. If the horse does stick his nose out he is asked again to flex but as soon as he does he is rewarded with a release of pressure.

I don’t like it because I think it teaches a horse to duck behind contact but IMHO because there is a release it’s not harsh or abusive.

Reining horses are expected to go on a loose rein
In RK even when the horse has his chin tucked in as far as it will go there is still contact, often heavy, on the reins

[magnolia73]

If you can HONESTLY look at those photos and tell me her horse is happy than thank God I am not one of your horses!

I watched the video and in her performance the horse seemed happy. When she dropped the reins to leave, he seemed happy and relaxed.

And yes. Those are some bad photos. And I could post probably thousands of pictures of horses looking that unhappy, including my own. There are some awful pics of me and my horse. Yet there are many photos when she is happy and relaxed even in the same ride, even during the same figure or activity.

[Equibrit]

@HorseBabble;5127804

Thanks Equibrit! A 5% to 20% is a pretty wide range, but it still shows 80% to 95% of them never experience problems. And it’s interesting that only 3.11% actually made the claims they were entitled to make. As I said, a relatively small number.

Clearly, you failed to understand the article. Too many hormones maybe ??

Forgotten victims of East German doping take their battle to court

Athletes who were given drugs to compete in the name of communism seek £8m compensation

• Luke Harding in Berlin
• The Guardian, Tuesday 1 November 2005
• Article history

They are the forgotten victims. For three decades, East Germans ran, swam and shot-putted their way to glory, winning Olympic gold medals, setting world records and - so it seemed at the time -demonstrating the superiority of communism. But this month the human cost of East Germany's extraordinary sporting success will be laid bare in a courtroom in Hamburg. Some 190 East German competitors are launching a case against the German pharmaceutical giant Jenapharm. They claim that the East German firm knowingly supplied the steroids that were given to them by trainers and coaches from the 1960s onwards until East Germany's demise in 1989. Jenapharm, now owned by Schering, argues it was not responsible for the doping scandal and blames the communist system. Last month, meanwhile, Germany's athletics federation announced that it was checking 22 national records set by East German athletes. The investigation came after Ines Geipel, a member of the record-holding East German women's 4x100 metres relay team, asked for her record from 1984 to be struck off. She revealed she had been doped. In a separate case another former East German swimmer Karin König is today suing the German Olympic committee for damages. König claims that she was also a victim of doping between 1982 and 1987. This state-sponsored doping regime played a decisive role in the dazzling success of East German athletes in international competitions - most notably at the 1976 Montreal Olympics and the 1980 Moscow games. But it also left a terrible legacy, the athletes' lawyers argue. The victims all received Oral-Turinabol - an anabolic steroid containing testosterone made by Jenapharm. The "blue bean" had astonishing powers - accelerating muscle build-up and boosting recovery times - but its subsequent side effects were catastrophic: infertility among women, embarrassing hair growth, breast cancer, heart problems and testicular cancer. An estimated 800 athletes developed serious ailments. The most public face of the doping scandal is Andreas Krieger - a shot-putter who took so many male hormones she decided to have a sex change. One of the few other victims to have spoken publicly about her plight is the swimmer Rica Reinisch, who at the age of 15 won three gold medals in the 1980 Olympics. "The worst thing was that I didn't know I was being doped," she told the Guardian. I was lied to and deceived. Whenever I asked my coach what the tablets were I was told they were vitamins and preparations." According to Prof Dr Werner Franke, a microbiologist who exposed the doping scandal after the fall of the Berlin Wall, East Germany's secret police kept meticulous records of the impact the drugs had on performance. A top-secret sporting medical committee including members of the Parteibüro, East Germany's communist leadership body, met to decide which members of the national squad were to be given the drugs. The aim was to show the superiority of the communist regime to its capitalist neighbour West Germany. The strategy worked. In the 1972 Munich Olympics, East Germany - a country of 17 million - reached the top three in the medals table with the United States and the Soviet Union. Four years later, East German women won 11 of the 13 swimming events. Franke contends that scientists from Jenapharm attended these secret committee meetings. Documents also suggest that Jenapharm scientists collaborated with the secret police, the Stasi, in an informal capacity, he claims - protesting privately but not publicly - at the use of steroids in sport. "There was no medical reason to give steroids. It was against the law of the German Democratic Republic. It was against medical ethics," Franke said. "Everybody knew these drugs were not allowed. The people who participated in this clandestine operation knew that they would lose privileges if they refused to take part. "But they also knew they wouldn't be executed. Some of the arguments now resemble those brought forward in the Third Reich. Those involved disapproved of what they were doing. They knew it was wrong. But they also knew it was a matter of national prestige, and was good for their careers. The Jesuits have a saying: 'For the greater glory of God.' This is what happened here." Whereas Germany has an exemplary record in the way it has dealt with its Nazi past, much of what happened during communist East Germany has been swept under the carpet - in the apparent interests of national reconciliation. In the late 1990s criminal cases were brought against Manfred Ewald, the former East German team doctor, and Dr Manfred Hoppner, a former team medical consultant. They were given suspended sentences. Schering, one of the world's largest pharmaceutical companies, has so far refused to pay any compensation. Isabelle Rothe, Jenapharm's chief executive, said she could give only some general background in advance of the trial, but she said she had "sympathy" with the victims of the doping scandal, and admitted that many of them were "under age" when they were given the steroids. "I'm convinced that the claims for damages against Jenapharm are not justified," she added. "After everything we now know the company was not involved in concrete doping or training plans. This is also true of doping experiments on athletes." She called for further research, saying it would reveal previously unknown aspects of the case. It is not clear yet whether the firm will cave in when both sides meet this month for an arbitration hearing or tough out the inevitable bad publicity and fight the case. Lawyers for the victims are hoping for €10-12m (£6.7m-£8.1m) in compensation, with most of the money going to former competitors whose lives have been ruined. Germany's parliament has already given €2m, €10,500 each. Intriguingly, some of the world records set by East German athletes while using Oral-Turinabol have not been bettered.

[bort84]

@ridgeback;5127939

No you just don’t understand…

I can understand your frustration with some of the emotional comments, but you aren’t being 100% crystal clear with your commentary either, perhaps that’s why some don’t understand you. So I’m directing this post at you, without ire or emotion beyond curiosity, because I’m curious as to how you really feel about rollkur beyond defending the riders who use it (which is understandable).

Do you like rollkur? Do you think it’s a good method? Would you like to see it used on your horse if he were in training with Anky and she said it would help him, or would you ask her to find a different way?

I’m in agreement with you that most of these horses look as happy as a horse in work can be - MOST of the time. I don’t think rollkur is generally abusive, and I have seen no good proof it causes long term physical damage.

However, putting all of that aside, do you feel rollkur is a good training method? I’m just curious.

In my mind - because I have to agree most of these horses look fine most of the time and have clearly adjusted to a training life with rollkur in it (horses are pretty adaptable creatures) - the biggest problem with rollkur for me is not about abuse or physical damage it may or may not cause (since we can’t prove anything either way about that at this point), it’s about how it fits in with the ideals of dressage. It just seems very opposed to the generally accepted tenets of dressage, and I hate to see our very best riders resorting to it when they have many other tools in their box.

Also, to clarify, I think there is a difference between working “deep” and “rollkur.” While some work deep can be beneficial depending on the horse, I think rollkur is unnecessary.

[ridgeback]

[QUOTE=MLD;5127967]
Ridgeback… back up the horsebox. I am on your side. I was making a sarcastic remark to go along with your snaffle bit sarcastic remark. You need to slow down and take a deep breath.[/QUOTE]

Sorry:(

[ridgeback]

Borte if I was riding with Anky and she felt my horse could benefit with her method of training I would be ok with it because I don’t think they abuse their horses… I would be more worried about lack of turnout then riding 20 min RK,LDR whatever you want to call it:D I’m not saying they don’t turn out their horses just saying for me this is a bigger welfare issue.

[bort84]

@ridgeback;5128043

Borte if I was riding with Anky and she felt my horse could benefit with her method of training I would be ok with it because I don’t think they abuse their horses… I would be more worried about lack of turnout then riding 20 min RK,LDR whatever you want to call it:D I’m not saying they don’t turn out their horses just saying for me this is a bigger welfare issue.

All right, fair enough = ) Though I don’t think they abuse their horses either - I just don’t like the use of rollkur in a training program and would ask for a different training route.

I do agree that, as a horse, I think I’d rather have some rollkur treatment for 20 minutes every day than not get turnout.

[ThreeFigs]

“Also, to clarify, I think there is a difference between working “deep” and “rollkur.” While some work deep can be beneficial depending on the horse, I think rollkur is unnecessary.”

Bort 84, I’m in 100% agreement with this statement.

Dr. Clayton’s studies regarding deep carrot stretches, held for a few seconds, may be a useful application of a “rollkur like” posture to activate muscles in the core. I’d like to read her studies and learn more.

[Coreene]

Here’s today FEI press release about it

[B]ALLTECH FEI WORLD EQUESTRIAN GAMES 2010 - DAY 5
Lexington, 29 September

JERICH PARZIVAL by Louise Parkes[/B]

The Dutch Equestrian Federation has pointed out that Adelinde Cornelissen’s gelding Jerich Parzival, which was eliminated during the Team Grand Prix Dressage competition yesterday at the Alltech FEI World Equestrian Games™ in Kentucky, bit his tongue during the dressage test and not in the warm-up beforehand as reported in yesterday’s FEI press release.

The Dutch rider and her horse were eliminated following movement number 5 (of 33), the halt and rein-back, when the Ground Jury observed blood in the horse’s saliva. The Dutch Federation has stated that photographs show there was no blood visible during the first four movements of the test.

Dr Wojtek Markowski (POL), the competition’s technical delegate, said afterwards, “The rule is clear, and it is written to protect the welfare of the horse: blood coming from the mouth is contrary to the welfare of the horse and the horse must be eliminated for veterinary reasons.”

Ground Jury President, Stephen Clarke (GBR), commended the rider for her gracious acceptance of the decision to discontinue her test. Parzival only suffered a very slight injury and the bleeding stopped very quickly.

[Aelphabae]

More than just bloody mouths

I think it is interesting to note that there are images showing Adelinde Cornelissen (not sure if they were posted much earlier in the thread) riding Parzival in extreme hyperflexion in warm ups. It comes as no great surprise to me that he ended his performance with blood in the mouth when I saw before that news the pictures of his head to such extreme that his nose was practically parallel with the ground.

It is important to keep in mind that the methods of training used at such high levels of competition (just as in the racing world and any other arena where money is a major motivating force) are not at the aim of the horse’s welfare. Rather welfare is something akin to the government (US anyways). You do what you can not to cross the line and end up in trouble or be disqualified and then in the background you file your taxes in such a way as to maximize the returns and minimize your payouts even if it is not entirely legal. You speed just enough to get where you are going more quickly but not so fast that you get pulled over and lose your license. It almost appears to be a nuisance for these riders to have to abide by the rules in place for the horse’s well being.

In all of the articles about Cornelissen being disqualified all I heard was about how upsetting it was for her, and poor Adelinde. NOTHING about concern over the horse. I could not have been the only person who saw it was Parzival and not Adelinde who left that arena bleeding…

Because all of this is money motivated all the cries coming from the point of “you’re abusing the horse” and so on will only fall on deaf ears. Where they feel impact is only in the pocket book. All of the stands at the WEG filled with spectators just pouring their money into the whole charade is what keeps these practices propped up. Until those stands are empty it will continue. Until there is no money in it for the riders.

There is a whole photo gallery and some video of the warm-ups posted at
http://www.writingofriding.com/pressing-matters/2010-weg-demonstrates-hyperflexion/

Cheers

[n2dressage]

I did say most but I’m not sure all ride LDR all the time and never bring the horse up. I’ve just heard it a lot from riding other people’s horses since I’ve been here. I have yet to ride a Grand Prix so I can’t say how well it works to ride deep and then need the horse to be that up for a test. I don’t think it would be quite like squats vs marathon but I see your point.

[QUOTE=mbm;5127724]
justa a question: if you ride a horse down all the time and only ever bring them up for the 6 minutes in the show arena - how the heck can the horse build the required muscles to do that without pain and stress? ie you never work the correct muscles and then expect the horse to use them properly?

when did training become so detached from the actual tests?

it would be like doing only squats and saying that you are training for a marathon -???[/QUOTE]

[equinedriver]

[QUOTE=Aelphabae;5128217]
I think it is interesting to note that there are images showing Adelinde Cornelissen (not sure if they were posted much earlier in the thread) riding Parzival in extreme hyperflexion in warm ups. It comes as no great surprise to me that he ended his performance with blood in the mouth when I saw before that news the pictures of his head to such extreme that his nose was practically parallel with the ground.

It is important to keep in mind that the methods of training used at such high levels of competition (just as in the racing world and any other arena where money is a major motivating force) are not at the aim of the horse’s welfare. Rather welfare is something akin to the government (US anyways). You do what you can not to cross the line and end up in trouble or be disqualified and then in the background you file your taxes in such a way as to maximize the returns and minimize your payouts even if it is not entirely legal. You speed just enough to get where you are going more quickly but not so fast that you get pulled over and lose your license. It almost appears to be a nuisance for these riders to have to abide by the rules in place for the horse’s well being.

In all of the articles about Cornelissen being disqualified all I heard was about how upsetting it was for her, and poor Adelinde. NOTHING about concern over the horse. I could not have been the only person who saw it was Parzival and not Adelinde who left that arena bleeding…

Because all of this is money motivated all the cries coming from the point of “you’re abusing the horse” and so on will only fall on deaf ears. Where they feel impact is only in the pocket book. All of the stands at the WEG filled with spectators just pouring their money into the whole charade is what keeps these practices propped up. Until those stands are empty it will continue. Until there is no money in it for the riders.

There is a whole photo gallery and some video of the warm-ups posted at
http://www.writingofriding.com/pressing-matters/2010-weg-demonstrates-hyperflexion/

Cheers[/QUOTE]

This is the best post of this entire thread and I agree completely.

[Eye_in_the_Sky]

[QUOTE=Coreene;5125270]
Just shoot me now.[/QUOTE]

You and me both. Had she dismounted, people would have said she was being inappropriate.

I am not commenting on the warm-up, but only the test - the horse looked amazing. If I understand correctly, the tongue on any mammal has quite a few capillaries, so it would follow that even a minor cut would produce a large amount of blood.

It appears to me that some are viewing this tongue-biting incident as a direct result of her riding him in a manner that some have suggested is abusive. I think to blame the horse biting his tongue on any prior riding incident is a false argument and unfair. I am not saying the warm-up was NOT abusive, but that the two incidents were actually separate and should be treated as such.