Dutch rider Adelinde Cornelissen eliminated in dressage: Horse's mouth bleeding.

[equinedriver]

[QUOTE=ridgeback;5127343]
I have no issue with Isabell’s video. I also understand most of you have no idea what it is like to ride a horse that big and powerful and talented or at that level. Yes she is killing that horse in a snaffle:eek::lol::lol: :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

Honestly confused by your response. My reply was based on the assumption that you were referring not to Isabelle Werth, but to Analinde’s video that is posted of more than 20 min where she is most definitely NOT using a snaffle. There are several video’s posted, including Peter whatshisname of blue tongue fame, poking the tongue back in his horses mouth, which is dripping pink blood tinged foam.

Are you saying that the fact that the horse is large and powerful it justifies ripping it’s face off ???

[MLK1]

Quote by Ridgeback: Her study is scientifc she has the most high tech equipment she said she would love to study rollkur her studies are still underway but all date shows huge improvements with these exercises. Vets come from all over the world to listen to Dr. Clayton she is the expert!!!

I am sorry Ridgeback, you are very naive when it comes to research. One study by one individual does not make it a confirmed fact (expert or not, high tech equipt or not). Her study needs to be repeated by several other independant researchers with the same results before it can ever be stated that these exercises definately benefit the horse. And even then it is not 100%.

Many a researcher has had to withdraw their findings when their studies could not be repeated. Look how many times the FDA has had to pull something off the market that was supposedly tested and safe. At least we humans have a voice and can say this drug ect… does not make me feel well, or I am having these symptoms. Unfortunately, our horses cannot. :no:

[marta]

i quit reading on page 4

talk about a conspiracy theory.
she didn’t look concerned enough??? really??? talk about judgmental. damn! wonder what we’d find about you if we were to analyze your every move with such scrutiny…

[mbm]

just as a small note: those arguing for Rollkur on this thread have been doing so for years using the same ole tired excuses etc.

they argue for argues sake with no new info/data/etc.

as for Sustainable Dressage - i know it is popular with the pro RK crowd to condemn her site, but really - please post point by point the things you disagree with along with footnotes and how you can prove her wrong.

to everyone else: if you felt what AC and others showed at WEG was appalling please take a moment to write the FEI, USDF, USEF and your own NF. Maybe, just maybe they will listen…

[MLD]

[QUOTE=ridgeback;5127343]
I have no issue with Isabell’s video. I also understand most of you have no idea what it is like to ride a horse that big and powerful and talented or at that level. Yes she is killing that horse in a snaffle:eek::lol::lol: :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

And did you see how she forced that poor horse to do a counter canter. The injustice.:eek: :eek: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[ThreeFigs]

Everybody’s arguments both for and against are the same old stuff.

Ony new data (and yes, reproducible data) stands a chance of changing minds, confirming convictions or quieting the arguments. But only a chance, and not a good one.

[ridgeback]

Sorry mlk got to disagree with you…I’m anxious for Dr. Clayton to do research on rollkur but then again they are winning and staying sound so maybe we don’t need the research…:lol::lol::lol:

[ridgeback]

[QUOTE=MLD;5127553]
And did you see how she forced that poor horse to do a counter canter. The injustice.:eek: :eek: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

:lol::lol::lol: I’m sure horses would rather not have us on their backs either…GET OVER IT.

[HorseBabble]

[QUOTE=ridgeback;5127579]
Sorry mlk got to disagree with you…I’m anxious for Dr. Clayton to do research on rollkur but then again they are winning and staying sound so maybe we don’t need the research…:lol::lol::lol:[/QUOTE]

How do you feel about human athletes and doping? I would really like to know.

[mbm]

the “winning and staying sound” argument is so interesting… we are seeing the ones that made it thru… what about the ones that didnt? if there are studies they need to study a complete sample of horses - not just those that make it thru.

it would be like studying only smokers that lived a long life and saying smoking doesn’t cause cancer.

it is just nonsense.

[MLK1]

Yes Ridgeback, I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one, I would like to pose a hypothetical to everyone though.

Lets put ourselves in a world without anyone ever hearing of Rollkur. Along comes a group of cowboys (not to pick on any group just using as example) and they present Rollkur to the dressage world as an excellent way to strengthen the core of the horse. However, they tell us we will have to have our horses chins to their chests for extended periods of time. To get them that way and keep them there, they tell us we may have to use brute force with our hands and upper body.

They also show us photos of what this may look at like at times (ex Adelinde). PLEASE honestly ask yourselves, if it were this group of equestrians presenting this method instead of the URLs would you take them seriously?? You can fool yourself and say yes, but I can almost be certain that you would be shocked and appalled at what they were suggesting.

And then, if you were to raise questions/concerns (for the well being of the horse) pertaining to their methods you would then be accused of performing a witch hunt.

[Kareen]

Ridgeback you should be ashamed. You are a shame for any equestrian. Ok with Bute… Go figure. Good thing you don’t have much saying in this sport. I feel ashamed I read and write on the same bulletin board as you do. Honestly where will you ever draw a line of what is unacceptable?

[ThreeFigs]

I don’t see the correlation…

Doping in human athletes can enhance performance, but it’s “cheating”. Doping in human athletes can also have negative effects on the athlete – depending on the method & substance.

Blood doping = enhanced performance with little or no negative effect (that I’m aware of), but still considered cheating.

Steriods = enhanced performance with negative consequences.

RK is not doping. It’s a posture, if you will, not a substance injected or applied.

But you weren’t asking me. Ridgeback, what say you?

[Equilibrium]

[QUOTE=Beasmom;5126765]
Spirithorse, can you produce a photo of a racehorse in rollkur?

Was it during a race or was this done during a morning workout? Or after the race as the jockeys are slowing the horses down?

Have you ever ridden a racehorse at a full gallop while trying to get it under control? I doubt it. Please, prove me wrong.

Somehow, I doubt that what you are calling “rollkur” at the racetrack is nothing of the sort. So again, prove me wrong and bring up some photos.

I bet there’s another explanation for “restricted oxygen intake” at the conclusion of a race other than “rollkur”.[/QUOTE]

Good questions Bea’s mom. Um if you come close to something like Rollkur at the track, chances are something has gone horribly wrong. Or take that back, it’s about to go horribly wrong. And it’s always good to have horse under control before you get to full gallop. Chances are if you’re not sure you have full control, then you don’t really.

So comparing apples to oranges and don’t know why Spirithorse is bringing racehorses into the equation. I spent 12 years galloping and weigh 100pds. Almost all of them like a long happy rein and are easy as pie to gallop. Like I said, when you have head to chest, not a good situation. Unless of course you’re galloping for Jack Van Berg.

I don’t see what’s wrong with Isabella’s horse, but then again not really looking for problems. To me it looked like she was trying to get him to come up from behind the bit. But I’m not a good judge because I wouldn’t make a top class dressage rider and have never trained for it.

Fugly asked on her blog if anyone ever had a horse come back with a bloody mouth as in 35 years she hadn’t. Well I did at the track and it wasn’t from hauling on their mouths. Some do bite their tongues. I am not saying I think rollkur is a good thing. Personally, it looks like too much of a struggle to deal with. And if the WEG thinks they did the right thing, well then I stand behind that.

Terri

[bort84]

@ridgeback;5127352

@bort84;5127352

So, a simple question: who feels the use of rollkur is a sound/positive training technique and should be used in the place of other options?

Umm there is more than one way to skin a cat I don’t think it has to be one or the other people should do what they think will most improve their horse.

Obviously there is more than one way to skin a cat - it’s horse training, after all, and it can certainly be ugly from time to time. Each horse is an individual and requires flexibility from the trainer. But the question remains, do you like rollkur? Would you use it? Would you like for a trainer to use it on your horse? Do you think it’s a technique we should be seeing on many of the most highly trained horses in our sport? This technique has shifted from just being used here and there on the random horse that really “needs” it - most of the Dutch team uses it on their most highly trained horses.

Clearly some think it will most improve their horse or they wouldn’t be using it. I just feel it’s a shortcut - a shortcut that appears to have the effect the trainers want, but that still doesn’t mean it’s the best way to get there out of a variety of other options.

[HorseBabble]

@Beasmom;5127658

I don’t see the correlation…

Doping in human athletes can enhance performance, but it’s “cheating”. Doping in human athletes can also have negative effects on the athlete – depending on the method & substance.

Blood doping = enhanced performance with little or no negative effect (that I’m aware of), but still considered cheating.

Steriods = enhanced performance with negative consequences.

RK is not doping. It’s a posture, if you will, not a substance injected or applied.

The vast majority of human athletes that dope (including steroids) never experience any negative at all whatsoever. The athletes remain sound and have a distinct advantage. If it were not for those pesky rules, would doping be acceptable?

[bort84]

@MLK1;5127652

Yes Ridgeback, I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one, I would like to pose a hypothetical to everyone though.

Lets put ourselves in a world without anyone ever hearing of Rollkur. Along comes a group of cowboys (not to pick on any group just using as example) and they present Rollkur to the dressage world as an excellent way to strengthen the core of the horse. However, they tell us we will have to have our horses chins to their chests for extended periods of time. To get them that way and keep them there, they tell us we may have to use brute force with our hands and upper body.

They also show us photos of what this may look at like at times (ex Adelinde). PLEASE honestly ask yourselves, if it were this group of equestrians presenting this method instead of the URLs would you take them seriously?? You can fool yourself and say yes, but I can almost be certain that you would be shocked and appalled at what they were suggesting.

And then, if you were to raise questions/concerns (for the well being of the horse) pertaining to their methods you would then be accused of performing a witch hunt.

I’ve tried to make this point too (I don’t think anyone ever responds to it though, haha).

No WAY would Anky and the like (and the defenders on here) have approved of rollkur if they’d seen some no name at a show using the method to some success. They’d likely have said, “Oh my goodness! What is that about? Who in their right mind would let that person train their horse?”

I know they’re all professionals with a lot of experience, talent, and solid training, but that doesn’t mean they’re immune to making bad judgment calls from time to time - I consider rollkur a bad judgment call.

[n2dressage]

I didn’t watch all of Isabelle Werth’s video but I liked it. Her horse looks very supple and he had floppy ears. But this is the way that all of the upper level riders I’ve met and watched since being in Germany ride. Everyone warms up and rides LDR and most people say they don’t even bring their horses up into competition frame except at competitions. One of my friends made her debut at Grand Prix on her 10 yo horse she trained herself as an amateur and came in 8th place with a score of 68% and no one ahead of her was an international rider. Something seems to be working…

[MLK1]

Horsebabble,

Ummmmmm, are you kidding me? :eek: Thats why steroids ARE not allowed, because of the possible health effects. MANY of these individuals suffer from different conditions from the effects of steroid use, especially later in their life.

[GoodyTwo]

[QUOTE=MLK1;5127652]
Lets put ourselves in a world without anyone ever hearing of Rollkur. Along comes a group of cowboys (not to pick on any group just using as example) and they present Rollkur to the dressage world as an excellent way to strengthen the core of the horse. [/QUOTE]

What if the group presenting the new training technique were named Pat and Linda!!!