Dutch rider Adelinde Cornelissen eliminated in dressage: Horse's mouth bleeding.

[bort84]

@BetterOffRed;5126060

If you take enough photos, you will find enough bad ones of everyone…take for example this one that I found.

http://terrimiller.exposuremanager.com/p/weg_dressage_vet_inspection/weg_926-2899_17_2_1 could be considered shocking if you didn’t take it in context.

I find this WITCH HUNT Almost as offensive as the blue tongue incident. AND I DON"T EVEN KNOW HOW TO RIDE IN ROLLKUR!!!

That photo is kind of a different beast though (I’d imagine if you saw it from a different angle, it wouldn’t really compare to a lot of the rollkur snaps you see).

I agree that you can find bad photos of anyone, and I don’t think this is a witch hunt for everyone - for me, it’s just a technique I really dislike and feel has no place in the dressage ring (especially not the warmup ring at the WEGs).

I believe that every rider on the Dutch team that uses rollkur is also a top notch rider/trainer and a horseperson that cares deeply for their animals. I would love to work with any of them. I only question why they feel the need to use rollkur when they clearly have the talent and horseflesh to find a better way. The only thing I can figure is that once Sjef convinced himself and Anky it was okay, more people started warming up to the idea because of their reputations.

I’d imagine if Anky or Edward Gal had first been introduced to rollkur by seeing some no name at a small show using it, they’d have come home and said, ugh, what was that rider thinking? But when introduced by someone of Sjef’s stature, they thought, well, maybe it’s worth a shot - and now we have rollkur as a widespread trend. The only problem is, even the best horsemen can make mistakes and make the wrong decisions.

I don’t think these people are abusive, and I don’t like to see anyone get knocked out like Adelinde did today. It’s heartbreaking. However, I would like for more to be done by the powers that be to let the world know they see rollkur as a negative and non-dressage friendly technique. I’m not looking for a witch-hunt, just less of a wishy washy stance by those in charge.

This technique is the kind of stuff you see at the late night workout sessions at the “breed shows” that many people in FEI disciplines like to rag on. Dressage likes to brag it is above “gadgets” and the shortcut training you see in other disciplines, and it usually is, but rollkur has somehow crept in and become acceptable to many. I just don’t get it.

Again, not looking for a witch hunt, just confused at why top notch riders feel they need to resort to this to win when they have all the tools to find a better way.

[Sandy_M]

[QUOTE=Sonesta;5124918]
Well, I have a VERY clear photo of her with the blood prominently showing. It was sent to me by a professional photographer who is there. I am waiting to hear from him if I can release the photo.

I do want to make it clear that the photo shows the blood but not WHY there is blood. And while I am NOT a fan of Rollkur, I HAVE had horses bite their tongues while being ridden and bleed a bit, so I am not ready to condemn this rider for brutal riding based on this incident.[/QUOTE]

I must say, however, that I have never in 55 years of riding seen a horse bleeding from a bitten lip/tongue, including lesson horses/rent horses with non- or very poor, rough riders on them. I HAVE seen bleeding sores (ugh!) on some poor old horses on the rent string with ill-fitting bits, but never have I seen a horse with a bloodied mouth unless it was (a) intentional from rough handling, or (b) from the horse hitting something, i.e., bopping it’s mouth on a jump pole during a refusal, tripping or falling on cross-county, etc. Just my experience. I’m sure it IS possible, but I sure never have seen it.

The judge are more and more aware, though. A friend had her test stopped because the judge thought the horse was bleeding from spurring. He was a horse that was reluctant to move forward and my friend DID feel she needed spurs with him, but when the TD inspected, it was just a sweat mark and she was allowed to continue. Still, better they checked than ignored it.

[Thomas_1]

[QUOTE=Coreene;5125349]
Hmmm … didn’t see the stewards jumping all over your supposed harshness, did you?[/QUOTE] Regrettably not.

It’s sickening that dressage has come to that.

[jenm]

[QUOTE=CiegoStar;5124637]

Eventing Nation has a photo of her schooling at the horse park. http://eventingnation.com/home/2010/09/late-night-links.html[/QUOTE]

Just saw the picture. Yikes.

[Sandy_M]

[QUOTE=equinedriver;5125849]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzG-0TyTuMs

Klimke riding warm up the day before the WEG at Aachen in 1995, long low and IN A SNAFFLE…[/QUOTE]

And in Neil ffrench Blake’s World of Dressage Book, there’s a picture of Klimke on Dux (before Biotop, before Ahlerich), warming up with stirrups crossed over the front of the saddle and in a snaffle, schooling prior to a big competition. Sigh. perhaps we are fools or naive admiring the “good old days.”

[sdlbredfan]

[QUOTE=arnika;5125052]
The story that accompanies the photos of the bleeding states “Stewards rushed to inspect the horse and found that he had bitten himself on the underside of the tip of his tongue.”.

So the cut is on the underside of his tongue apparently. Perhaps from having his tongue pressed against his teeth? If she warmed him up in a similar fashion as the photos from yesterday, I could see that happening. Every pic showed his lips and mouth gaping open with tremendous rein pressure.[/QUOTE]

That seems the most plausible cause. I have never heard of/read nor seen a horse do that, as it is not the kind of problem a horse would have if a) bitted correctly - bit adjustment and b) ridden with adequate concern for its wellbeing at all times. The warmup pictures were so disgusting it was incredible. I have seen beginner riders be more diplomatic in rein handling than that for pete’s sake!

[maudie]

Just an idea… but doesn’t Rollkur cut off the horse’s airway? If the rider was doing lots of it, maybe the horse’s airway was damaged, and during the ride the horse stuck his tongue out a little to help open up the airway, then biting it.

[akor]

Let’s hope more of these poor tortured beasts start biting themselves so the riders are eliminated.

That photo in eventing nation is GROSS. Disgusting. Made may stomach turn. And, I"m not very touchy feeling.

That is SO FAR away from the principles of classical dressage it’s sickening. Horses do not do that naturallly. Ever.

[spirithorse]

Rolkur/overbent airway

here is an eye opener for you folks.
There is a halter mounted endoscope that would once and for all prove or disprove the shutting off of the airway.

Guess what … I can find no where on the Internet where any reputable equine vet or vet school has tested this theory.

As for SP and the broadside image I saw…I personally can tell you that this happens on the racetrack all the time and you can hear the airway blockage.

[maudie]

[QUOTE=spirithorse;5126426]
here is an eye opener for you folks.
There is a halter mounted endoscope that would once and for all prove or disprove the shutting off of the airway.

Guess what … I can find no where on the Internet where any reputable equine vet or vet school has tested this theory.

As for SP and the broadside image I saw…I personally can tell you that this happens on the racetrack all the time and you can hear the airway blockage.[/QUOTE]

I’m not trying to pass the blocked airway theory as fact, it was just an idea that popped in my head

[BaroquePony]

I haven’t read all of the posts so someone may have already noted it … the close-up photo showing Adelinde with her hand covering her mouth and bloody foam on Parzival’s lower lip … anyone notice the crank noseband is so tight that the hair above it is coming over the top of the noseband … that’s friggin’ tight.

[buschkn]

@Coreene;5125270

Just shoot me now.

THIS.

[yventer]

I try to stay out of these discussions because they often devolve into personal attacks, but I have to say the photos of Adelinde make me very sad. Sad for the horse, sad for the sport, sad that this is what the public will remember. In this case, it wasn’t a one-off moment in warmup - there are several shots of similar force being used by her in that session.

I’ve trained and ridden horses to FEI dressage and FEI eventing (simultaneously), and I know that if I did in an eventing competition warmup what I see in these photos I would most likely have been disqualified in short order, before entering the competition arena.

I have to wonder (and I bet the public will, as well): If this is what she does in a warm-up in front of the world’s watching eyes, what is happening behind the scenes? I can’t understand why a horse at this level would require repeated use of such force. Even if things are going badly, there are better solutions.

Again, I’m just sad. How did dressage come to a point that one of the world’s top contenders would readily display this kind of riding? I know that bad training practices happen in all the equine sports, but usually behind closed doors. Many of us work to stop that; but this was done right out in front of the whole world, which makes me assume she thinks it’s OK. After all the bad press over that last couple years, how could she think it’s OK?

“The whole world’s watching.”

[flyracing]

[QUOTE=maudie;5126368]
Just an idea… but doesn’t Rollkur cut off the horse’s airway? If the rider was doing lots of it, maybe the horse’s airway was damaged, and during the ride the horse stuck his tongue out a little to help open up the airway, then biting it.[/QUOTE]

No, if the horse cannot breath it will not exercise very long… successfully or poorly. Sadly, many horses have been observed in a rollkur position for for several minutes to over an hour without a break. Those horses would be dead. Also, since horses don’t have the capability for breathing through the mouth, it seems less likely they would engage the tongue and more likely a suffocating horse would give a full body response (getting the rider off!).

The worst thing that actually seems directly related was the blue tongue incident. I’m not sure if any other injury (if that is an injury) has been directly accounted to rolkuer.

There is no doubt that when used roughly it is too harsh to be considered acceptable dressage, but apparently, what do we know?

[arnika]

Many of us work to stop that; but this was done right out in front of the whole world, which make me assume she thinks it’s OK. After all the bad press over that last couple years, how could she think it’s OK?

yventer, if you look at one of the St. Georg photos, you’ll see her coach, Sjef Jansen standing there watching the warmup. He’s the brain behind the whole rollkur into a pretzel idea. With her coach telling her to do it and the team winning medals, of course she’s going to keep using the method. Especially since the TDs and stewards keep closing their eyes.

[Across_Sicily]

[QUOTE=mbm;5126080]
well he did break her arm… i was thinking about it today after watching her surf on his face… how hard does the pressure need to be to snap a human arm?

that is how hard she is pulling…[/QUOTE]

When did that happen? I don’t really follow dressage - I’m more of a jumper/eventer follower - so I haven’t heard about this… what happened?

[yventer]

[QUOTE=arnika;5126710]
yventer, if you look at one of the St. Georg photos, you’ll see her coach, Sjef Jansen standing there watching the warmup. He’s the brain behind the whole rollkur into a pretzel idea. With her coach telling her to do it and the team winning medals, of course she’s going to keep using the method. Especially since the TDs and stewards keep closing their eyes.[/QUOTE]

That’s one reason I think it’s so sad. Many riders, probably good horsepeople, are put in a position of continuing to be good horsepeople or get on the team. But it only takes a few to stand up and say “No”. And why demonstrate in public what has already been condemned? Hubris? Or assumed approval via the lack of censure from TDs and stewards as you noted?

I’m not one for strong statements, but the current state of affairs makes me want to kick someone in the (mouth) and see how they’d like it.

Other horse sports have stood up and made changes for the better. Perhaps dressage can do the same.

Yvonne

[spirithorse]

"Those horses would be dead. Also, since horses don’t have the capability for breathing through the mouth, it seems less likely they would engage the tongue and more likely a suffocating horse would give a full body response (getting the rider off!)."

Excuse me! No one said it totally blocks the airway. The amount of air being taken in is limited…that as been found true with racehorses held in rolkur while galloping. Testing of the blood cells has verified restricted oxygen intake.

[ThreeFigs]

Spirithorse, can you produce a photo of a racehorse in rollkur?

Was it during a race or was this done during a morning workout? Or after the race as the jockeys are slowing the horses down?

Have you ever ridden a racehorse at a full gallop while trying to get it under control? I doubt it. Please, prove me wrong.

Somehow, I doubt that what you are calling “rollkur” at the racetrack is nothing of the sort. So again, prove me wrong and bring up some photos.

I bet there’s another explanation for “restricted oxygen intake” at the conclusion of a race other than “rollkur”.

[mbm]

[QUOTE=Across Sicily;5126732]
When did that happen? I don’t really follow dressage - I’m more of a jumper/eventer follower - so I haven’t heard about this… what happened?[/QUOTE]

I am not finding anything on Google but that doesn’t mean much

here is where I first heard of it but I heard it elsewhere too… i wonder if anyone can confirm?

http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=221109