Dutch rider Adelinde Cornelissen eliminated in dressage: Horse's mouth bleeding.

[MLK1]

To see how it feels, I think everyone should try keeping their chins up against their neck for a period of a time. You can feel all the muscles in your neck pulling. It does become harder to breathe, even through your nose. Try it… It is a VERY un-natural and uncomfortable posistion.

Now imagine a rider on your back while you are doing this pulling your neck and mouth this way and that. While you are in this position you will be asked to run and do all sort of movements with your body at the same time. OH, and you may be asked to hold this posistion for up to an hour.

[ridgeback]

[QUOTE=MLK1;5126851]
To see how it feels, I think everyone should try keeping their chins up against their neck for a period of a time. You can feel all the muscles in your neck pulling. It does become harder to breathe, even through your nose. Try it… It is a VERY un-natural and uncomfortable posistion.

Now imagine a rider on your back while you are doing this pulling your neck and mouth this way and that. While you are in this position you will be asked to run and do all sort of movements with your body at the same time. OH, and you may be asked to hold this posistion for up to an hour. :([/QUOTE]

Except Dr. Hillary Clayton has shown with high tech equipment while doing a study on building the core of the horse without a rider on them when the horse puts his nose on the chest it does nothing to the middle of the neck but it lifts the back. Which she said is a great exercise to strengthen the core. Maybe that is why the dutch have such great horses.

[MLK1]

I understand your point Ridgeback, but has anybody asked the horse how this feels? High tech equipt can’t do that and neither can we unfortunately. I let my horses talk to me through their eye and expression. In all the photos I have seen of horses being asked for this type of substained position, the horses look completely miserable and unhappy.
Just look at the photos of Adelinde and her horse. You cannot tell me that horse is a happy camper.

My point is, do the ends justify the means for the horses sake. Also you mentioned that study was done without the rider on the horses back in a controlled study. I have done research all my life and any single added variable (like a rider) can COMPLETELY change the outcome of a study. I am not an ULR, but one look at these horses expression tells me all I need to know about Rollkur.

[ridgeback]

[QUOTE=MLK1;5126972]
I understand your point Ridgeback, but has anybody asked the horse how this feels? High tech equipt can’t do that and neither can we unfortunately. I let my horses talk to me through their eye and expression. In all the photos I have seen of horses being asked for this type of substained position, the horses look completely miserable and unhappy.
Just look at the photos of Adelinde and her horse. You cannot tell me that horse is a happy camper.

My point is, do the ends justify the means for the horses sake. Also you mentioned that study was done without the rider on the horses back in a controlled study. I have done research all my life and any single added variable (like a rider) can COMPLETELY change the outcome of a study. I am not an ULR, but one look at these horses expression tells me all I need to know about Rollkur. :([/QUOTE]

Well since I’ve sat right at the ring and watched these guys school 3 days in a row I can tell you their horses are NOT miserable. What happens at home I have no idea but what I can tell you their horses look happy in the ring showing and look just fine schooling. I don’t believe for one minute they ride their horses like this the entire time they work at home. Ya’ll just need to get over this. I have a feeling if and when Dr. Hillary Clayton does the research on this you are all going to be very disappointed with the outcome. Although I have a feeling you won’t let the facts get in your way. I’m more of a fan of the way Laura and Catherine Haddad train but that is just my personal opinion and it doesn’t make different training methods wrong.

[dwblover]

The issue is simple. I’m sidestepping any implications here that the cut on Parzival’s tongue was caused by rollkur, as that will never be proven or disproven. However, the photos are real and disturbing to many people, myself included.

I am not by my nature an anti-rollkur bandwagon traveller. In fact these last few posts I’ve made are my first outcry against it on this board or anywhere else. It is not merely the positioning of the head, that honestly does not get to me per se. However, the open, gaping mouth of Parzival combined with the hands of the rider pulling hard and at the rider’s bosom is what really gets to me. I would expect to see that sort of posture for horse and rider after a 30 mph bolt that had to be stopped, not at a dressage warm-up at WEG!!!

And of course there are the few posters who like to poke fun at anyone who DARES to say rollkur might not be comfortable for the horse. Well, I DARE you to put a bridle on and I’d be quite amused to see what you think with the bit in YOUR mouth. Ignorance is bliss for you guys I suppose, but I damn glad I’m not your horse!

[HorseBabble]

[QUOTE=ridgeback;5126949]
Maybe that is why the dutch have such great horses.[/QUOTE]

If they were using performance enhancing drugs would you feel the same way? Does the ends justify the means?

[Fantastic]

dwblover, I’m with you - I am not by nature an anti-RK bandwagoneer either. I have never spoken up about rollkur until this incident either. I simply could not remain silent after what happened yesterday and seeing the photos.

Harmony, beauty, and the art of dressage has been lost in this technique. The invisible, silent aids have been replaced with cruel, rude, and loud forcefulness. The posture of the horse is all wrong: - the gaping mouth, the curled up neck, the closed throat. The posture of the rider is also all wrong: strong forceful hands, yanking and cranking back and forth, driving seat with upper body leaning behind the vertical.

And yet, they call this dressage, and this is what is done to achieve the highest levels?

[Graymaresrule]

@MLK1;5126972

I understand your point Ridgeback, but has anybody asked the horse how this feels? High tech equipt can’t do that and neither can we unfortunately. I let my horses talk to me through their eye and expression. In all the photos I have seen of horses being asked for this type of substained position, the horses look completely miserable and unhappy.
Just look at the photos of Adelinde and her horse. You cannot tell me that horse is a happy camper.

My point is, do the ends justify the means for the horses sake. Also you mentioned that study was done without the rider on the horses back in a controlled study. I have done research all my life and any single added variable (like a rider) can COMPLETELY change the outcome of a study. I am not an ULR, but one look at these horses expression tells me all I need to know about Rollkur.

Somehow I don’t think the researchers are simulating this
http://st-georg.de/bilder_popup.php?objekt_id=8357&next=12

zoom in on this
http://st-georg.de/bilder_popup.php?objekt_id=8357&next=8

I used 400% and contrast the color of the saliva dripping out of the horse’s mouth with the white pad of the horse behind him

[magnolia73]

I just want to say that in the video, the dutch horse saunters off on a long rein looking very relaxed. I have seen horses ridden in an abusive manner and they never look that relaxed and content. They resent the rider very quickly and it shows.

I think if roll kur is abusive to the horses, then they will not perform long term. It may not be a good practice, “correct”. It may be a short cut. But to me, it is hardly abusive. I have ridden a horse who was abused by draw reins. He shut down and was unrideable and went with no joy, even without draw reins. I have seen horses get fearful and tense over big bits. We have all seen cranked and spanked horses. Yup- abusive techniques. And the end result showed.

The dutch horse? We may think he is being abused, but it sure looks like he is happy most of the time. Sometimes it has to get a little ugly is some people’s training manifesto- its pretty darn effective. I doubt they ride him ugly outside of the show ring all the time… he’d be a different horse.

[Eclectic_Horseman]

@MLK1;5126851

To see how it feels, I think everyone should try keeping their chins up against their neck for a period of a time. You can feel all the muscles in your neck pulling. It does become harder to breathe, even through your nose. Try it… It is a VERY un-natural and uncomfortable posistion.

Now imagine a rider on your back while you are doing this pulling your neck and mouth this way and that. While you are in this position you will be asked to run and do all sort of movements with your body at the same time. OH, and you may be asked to hold this posistion for up to an hour.

That’s just silly! 1: A human being is not a horse. Your anatomy is just not the same. 2: Have you ever seen an expert yoga practioner? When they sit in a pose with their legs behind their ears, boy, it sure looks like it would hurt. And you know what? It would hurt me! But I am not that athlete. I haven’t got years of practice and I wasn’t born that flexible to begin with. I can’t even do a split! When done properly, yoga doesn’t cause injury. (Unlike many exercise techniques that cause wear and tear on the joints, etc.)
3:Why are these rollkur trained horses all so sound into their senior years?

Again, I say it IS a witch hunt. Please, if you want to burn someone at the stake–take the French, please! They EAT horses, don’t they for god’s sake? :mad:

[NCRider]

If you don’t think there are horses who are tolerant and kind enough to put up with abuse and still have moments in which the abuse is not occurring and they appear content fond of the people in their lives, you’ve never met a school horse at a large lesson barn or a hourly rent a horse. Some horses can learn to tolerate just about anything and separate the moments of “abuse” from the rest of their lives.

[HorseBabble]

[QUOTE=Eclectic Horseman;5127111]

3:Why are these rollkur trained horses all so sound into their senior years?[/QUOTE]

Is this really where we draw the line? It must produce physical harm? Waterboarding causes no physical harm.

And again, I keep thinking of the drug analogy. The vast majority of human athletes who use performance enhancing drugs do not have problems. Does that make it acceptable?

[shawnee_Acres]

[QUOTE=dwblover;5127022]
The issue is simple. I’m sidestepping any implications here that the cut on Parzival’s tongue was caused by rollkur, as that will never be proven or disproven. However, the photos are real and disturbing to many people, myself included.

I am not by my nature an anti-rollkur bandwagon traveller. In fact these last few posts I’ve made are my first outcry against it on this board or anywhere else. It is not merely the positioning of the head, that honestly does not get to me per se. However, the open, gaping mouth of Parzival combined with the hands of the rider pulling hard and at the rider’s bosom is what really gets to me. I would expect to see that sort of posture for horse and rider after a 30 mph bolt that had to be stopped, not at a dressage warm-up at WEG!!!

And of course there are the few posters who like to poke fun at anyone who DARES to say rollkur might not be comfortable for the horse. Well, I DARE you to put a bridle on and I’d be quite amused to see what you think with the bit in YOUR mouth. Ignorance is bliss for you guys I suppose, but I damn glad I’m not your horse![/QUOTE]

I have kept away from the rollkur drama, as some of the videos I ahve seen of this were not bad at all, overflexed yes, but nothing disturbing. However what the above poster said I agree with, as I saw some photos of Parzival and Adelinde with the horses head basically cranked around almost to her knee, her leaning back and HAULING on the left rein, horses mouth WIDE OPEN and the right hand NOT GIVING so bit was being pulled around to the right out of the horses mouth about 2 inches! Now I am sorry but I see NO benefit in that! Riding deep and round may be beneficial, not how I would do it, but hey, I don’t think for a few moments here and there in warmup that the horse is in distress. But that photo, with the horses eye rolling back, mouth gaping wide open was a total shock to me! It looked like some of the crap you see at QH shows!!

[Eclectic_Horseman]

@HorseBabble;5127134

Is this really where we draw the line? It must produce physical harm? Waterboarding causes no physical harm.

And again, I keep thinking of the drug analogy. The vast majority of human athletes who use performance enhancing drugs do not have problems. Does that make it acceptable?

Yes, you are right, it is a “line drawing” question. So you could draw the line at not riding horses at all. Riding horses causes long term physical breakdown, and many, many moments of mental discomfort during a horse’s lifetime. Especially when you wean the horse, and every time you separate it from the herd. We know that travel, stabling and other stressors causes ulcers. So it is unquestionably abusive to take horses away to shows…

Question: if riding a horse in hyperflexion that has the physical capacity to do it (like the yoga practitioner) can allow him to be ridden with less injury than other horses because of the increased core strength and flexibility in the soft tissue–wouldn’t it be abusive not to use this technique to keep him fit for competitive riding?

[SGray]

@equinedriver;5125849

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzG-0TyTuMs

Klimke riding warm up the day before the WEG at Aachen in 1995, long low and IN A SNAFFLE…

WEG 2010 snaffle warm up
http://www.topiberian.com/es/galeria-de-videos?task=videodirectlink&id=1471

[ridgeback]

I would have no problem with bute these are athletes. So you guys are looking at pics how do you know they weren’t walking on a lose rein and the horses were fresh and started to spook or bolt? That sure would explain her hands up by her chest. Point being you are not there you are looking at pics taking by people who have a clear agenda. I have no use for those PETA people who carry everything to the extreme. I’m going to guess I could sit on the sidelines and take pics of many of you riding and they would be just as disturbing if not more( a split second shot does not tell you the story). You know sometimes horses are more difficult on a certain day so things don’t always go as smoothly as one would want. I have seen amateurs inflict more pain physically and mentally on their horses then any of these top pros… I also realize these amateurs did not do this intentionally.

[crittertwitter]

NCRider, horses are the most forgiving souls, aren’t they.

I do understand why people are irritated that the outcry in this instance has been so great. It seems Rollkur has been ripe for damning for a couple of years now and, so, when we see its use in plain view at the WEG, of all places, it just seems that the users do not care that it has been banned and do not value their horses enough to use more humane methods. This flies in the face of all of us who treasure equestrian sports as expressions of voluntary (often ethereal) partnerships.

I do wonder why there were no rollkur sanctions - is it only if it is witnessed in warmup the day of the competition? Again, while no one can, with certainty, connect the tongue biting with the previous use of rollkur, I do think they are connected, simply because the probability of a horse biting his tongue while being ridden naturally is very low. Personal observation, but meaningful to me nonetheless.

This article has been the most mechanically/physically informative treatment of the topic that I have found (Rollkur - Why Not): http://www.sustainabledressage.net/rollkur/why_not.php

[crittertwitter]

[QUOTE=ridgeback;5127178]
I would have no problem with bute these are athletes. So you guys are looking at pics how do you know they weren’t walking on a lose rein and the horses were fresh and started to spook or bolt? That sure would explain her hands up by her chest. Point being you are not there you are looking at pics taking by people who have a clear agenda. I have no use for those PETA people who carry everything to the extreme. I’m going to guess I could sit on the sidelines and take pics of many of you riding and they would be just as disturbing if not more( a split second shot does not tell you the story). You know sometimes horses are more difficult on a certain day so things don’t always go as smoothly as one would want. I have seen amateurs inflict more pain physically and mentally on their horses then any of these top pros… I also realize these amateurs did not do this intentionally.[/QUOTE]

You don’t believe that when those pictures were taken, the rider was doing this intentionally? Her posture looked pretty deliberate.

[ridgeback]

Um Critter read what I wrote…SIGH

[Eclectic_Horseman]

@crittertwitter;5127186

This article has been the most mechanically/physically informative treatment of the topic that I have found (Rollkur - Why Not): http://www.sustainabledressage.net/rollkur/why_not.php

Like reading about witchcraft on a website run by the Spanish Inquisition. :lol: