Edward Gal & Totilas 92.3% GPF at Olympia

As far as the earlier masters (sorry, I hate ODG) not referring to tempo changes; there is a paragraph in one of Podhajsky’s books about a conversation by Ennsbauer, I believe, comparing circus to the classically trained Lippizzaners that states to the effect:

Set the metronome to any tempo and I will have the horse step in time, and also a reference to not spilling a glass of water on a piaffing horse because of it’s suppleness and “Let’s see them do THAT in the circus!”

So, aware of and practiced. I’m sure I could find other references, that was just off the top of my head.

Regarding the word pace, in FEI it refers to what USA people call gait, and is used interchangeably, so you’ll just have to get used to it - we didn’t write that book.

Since for a long history of the USA pace referred to a lateral (front and hind on the same side move in unison) two-beat gait (still common in Standardbreds = trotter vs. pacer) was often seen, it was confusing to use it to mean gait. FEI almost invariably uses the word lateral (derogatively) when regular footfalls become irregular, though that isn’t always the effect.

A 3rd meaning of pace in the horse world refers to distance covered in a set time: slow or fast pace. (note that a fast pace here could have a slow tempo and long stride length and still get over a lot of ground).

This semantics variation as well as many others is a barrier to effective communication between equestrians of different disciplines and nationalities: fortunately we have the horses to bridge our gaps. Hey, we’re only human!

[QUOTE=mbm;4572840]

[QUOTE=caddym;4566888][B]

ok, so going back over the (useful) posts I think this is the crux of the “issues” …

the definition of Rhythm and Tempo and completely opposite as taught by the USDF/USEF -

Of course i totally agree with the training concepts in the FN books, Klimke et al.

I think this confusion lies in the fact that the USEF/USDF have conflicting definitions. I wonder if someone was drunk the day they compiled that list? ;)[/QUOTE]

MBM, I am honestly thankful that you found my post helpful. I have to work very hard (OB/GYN) to support my riding. I work hard in my off time to ride and train my 2 horses. Since I only have time to ride 2 horses, I spend as much time as possible reading, watching dvd’s, on-line training, etc. Also, there are times that I have a ton of down time at work (think of multiple 24 hour labors)…

I do understand the confusion re, the wording of the USDF

Of course Gal is not a USDF rider, so he doesn’t have to be burdened by our countries confusion created by committees…

So what DOES “mbm” stand for

Many Big Meatballs?
May Beats March?
My Bra Matches?

Set the metronome to any tempo and I will have the horse step in time, and

That’s sort of scary, if it suggests I can set the metronome to 300 bpm and he can make his horse piaffe at that speed, LOL!

But I think what this is, is the usual ‘Master’s Hyperbole’(people describe Podhajsky as having a very passionate temper about dressage), point being that a top rider can indeed match a horse’s strides to a given (appropriate) tempo and keep him steady on the tempo, not that he would make a horse piaffe at an inappropriately fast or slow tempo.

Not sure if the remark is being taken out of context here, either. It could have meant that while he could do so, he wouldn’t always want to do so with a youngster who isn’t strong enough to do that (a la klimke). Or he could have simply been objecting to some riders who do not keep a steady tempo, and insisting that if they recognized the importance of not rushing in certain movements and worked at it, their tempos would be more correct.

also a reference to not spilling a glass of water on a piaffing horse because of it’s suppleness and “Let’s see them do THAT in the circus!”

I suspect he said this because in circus they do a non suppled movement called ‘balance’ (I can’t find the diacritical marks), not piaffe, so the horse’s butt bumps up and down and its hips sway side to side.

Regarding the word pace, in FEI it refers to what USA people call gait, and is used interchangeably, so you’ll just have to get used to it - we didn’t write that book.

Easy to get from context.

a lateral (front and hind on the same side move in unison) two-beat gait

Easy to get from context.

A 3rd meaning of pace in the horse world refers to distance covered in a set time: slow or fast pace. (note that a fast pace here could have a slow tempo and long stride length and still get over a lot of ground).

The sense of ‘it’s the pace that kills’, when i was a kid I thought they were saying, ‘Pacing kills’, and I kept wondering, ‘WHY? HOW?’

This semantics variation as well as many others is a barrier to effective communication between equestrians of different disciplines and nationalities:

It’s no barrier. It’s easy to understand what people mean from the context.

About trot tempos being the same, shouldn’t the passage and piaffe’ - being a passage in place- (ideally) strive to having the same tempo? This is a good video to count the 1-2-1-2 of the P/P. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-BNw0dtZzs. As well as this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9RwXfE3ZKI
Count out loud or, better yet, tap with a finger - one on each hand- in accompaniment to the rear foot falls. Passage/piaffe transitions are in the beginning of both videos.

and now for something completely different…

Does anyone know if ‘they’ have decided to assign a judge to assess ‘degree of difficulty’ in big competitions?

I know it was being talked about by the FEI task force, but I don’t know if it is going to implemented. Would be interested to hear if anyone knows…

Anyway, if freestyles were weighted by DOD, do folks think Totilas’ would stay at the top or move down in the standings?

This is not meant to be a baiting or damning question. He’s a very young GP horse and I personally think his freestyle appropriately not very difficult.

I’m wondering if anyone thinks his freestyle is difficult enough to warrant such high scores if they were judged taking difficulty into consideration? If so, what am I missing?

Thanks for thinking about this.

p.s. I also thought that Salinero had surprisingly easy freestyles considering the amount of winning he was doing…I always wondered if the judges were trying to make up for underscoring Bonfire all those years!

I think your opinion about what is difficult might be questioned. Too, I’m not so sure that Totilas’ freestyle is so totally lacking in difficulty.

FEI’s statements about difficulty in FS:

Appropriate repetition of single exercises, especially the exercises with a
coefficient.
• Exceeding the minimum requirements of the exercises, such as number of
simple and flying tempi changes or piaffe steps, but without exaggeration.
• Showing a steeper angle than requested in half passes possibly combined
with changes of direction
• Executing the movements on lines without the support of arena rails, such as
on the inner track, the quarter or centre line, or on angled or curved lines,
(e.g. circle or serpentine).
• Well-chosen placing of movements in positions that make their execution
more difficult: for example directly in front of the arena rails, as well as
pirouettes directed outwards, possibly towards the spectators.
• Well-presented clearly defined combinations of movements (e.g. half-passes
in trot followed by half-passes in passage, flying changes every second stride
immediately followed by changes every stride and vice versa).
• Showing demanding and difficult transitions (e.g. piaffe or passage derived
from the halt without prior development of impulsion; transition from walk or
halt directly into a series of flying changes; significant but still harmonious
transitions out of an extended pace to a highly collected exercise: e.g.
extended trot to piaffe or extended canter to (half) canter pirouette or piaffe.
• Performing movements or transitions with the reins in one hand but without
exaggeration.
A well-calculated risk is demonstrated when the Degree of Difficulty corresponds to
the potential and the level of training of rider and horse. A challenging, technically
correct performance is a significant testimony of a high standard of riding ability and
the training of the horse. On the other hand, obvious mistakes in the execution of
the movements may reflect an over-asking by the rider of the horse, which means a
badly calculated risk, and the score for the Degree of Difficulty has to be reduced.

I’m not going to delve into Totilas’ freestyle in detail til I watch it a couple more times and sober up. Christmas is just too demanding.

But actually I think were some extremely difficult moves and transitions in Salinero’s freestyle, there was an extended canter on center line with transition to I can’t recall what that I thought was extremely difficult and more to the point, done very well.

I really am not sure most fans have the same understanding of FS difficulty as the judges do.

Too, as much as we hate the increasing scores, we actually seem to expect more and more flashing freestyles every season, which further distorts our concept of ‘difficulty’. There is the issue of using figures rather than movements to bring in difficulty which I’ve not once seen anyone here bring up. Maybe we should discuss the difference between figure vs movement.

Too, I think people might be distorting this to ‘difficulty is better’ rather than what the literature says, which is ‘difficulty can raise your score, but beware, it can also lower it if you don’t do it very well’. Thus it is conceivable to me actually that a young GP horse can get a very high score on a very well done simpler freestyle with lower level of difficulty, while someone who tries to put in a lot of difficulty and the technical side or the fluency or artistry suffers.

I see some very difficult things competitors choose to do, and I see the audience going ‘oooh…ah’ and the judge going ‘ohhh…no…’. The two groups do not always see it the same way.

Difficulty at all costs is different from appropriate difficulty for the horse and from difficulty executed with aplomb and technical correctness.

IS Totilas scored too easy? This is what I have been hearing on the bb’s since the day the horse first stepped into the GP competition ring.

In fact it is one of the most consistent complaints around any watering trough, over many decades. No one ever seems to complain that 2nd place and down was scored too high. Maybe some principle of cognitive dissonance at work…

[QUOTE=Beasmom;4572742]
I could speculate…[/QUOTE]

I think someone smarter than me could go into the distinction in scoring between ‘movement’ and ‘figure’ and talk about how a fs designer can put in difficulty in a figure rather than a movement.

I can remember a freestyle from one of the American (Olympian) riders who had such a high degree of difficulty that everything went wrong. Flying changes on a circle changing from one tempi changes into two tempi changes etc… etc… . The end result was that everything went wrong (late behind in every change, triple canter pirouette etc.). The mark is about “degree of difficulty and well calculated riscs” .

Doing a extended trot on half of the centerline and changing into the walk could be considered as a high degree of difficulty.
Passage in half pass, canter pirouette’s directly after an extended canter etc…

I know from all the clinics i gave for the judges that they will seriously score you down for taking to much risc in your test, and making it look like a flight of the bumbelbee.

I could speculate about what MBM stands for, not the scoring…

What you talkin’ bout, hadrispa?

Had a chance to watch a little more of Totilas freestyle again.

The 2’s were on an easy line. Most of the rest of the stuff represented a fair amount of difficulty, extra steps of piaffe and passage, angles of half passes, for example, but especially extended canter to double pirouette, That’s difficult, as well as where in the ring the pirouettes were then done.

The clever thing about it is, is that like most of the top riders, every bit of difficulty is squeezed out from the movements and gaits the horse does the best, which only makes sense, really.

Movement vs figure, which distinction the rule book says ‘is not arbitrary’. A zig zag is a figure, tempe changes are a movement, that makes perfect sense, that I get ok. :lol:

more masochistic moments
:lol::lol:

[quote=caddym;4573079]

Certianly in the first level of the training pyramid TEMPO does not belong, the bright individual who wrote that for USDF probably meant BALANCE. Scroll down http://www.usdf.org/about/about-dressage/dressage-training.asp

TEMPO belongs not before the Connection (acceptance of bit and aids) and Impulsion Levels, jeeeesh…

extended canter to ctr pir:

one year at Aachen, it seemed like almost every rider did that move—ext. ctr on a shallow long diagonal to a ctr pir either near A or C. Most seem to do it near A (are we worried about doing a ctr. pir. so close to the judges?)

at any rate, I still see it frequently enough that I wonder if someone sent a memo: you score extra points if you do this move?

slc2-how do you know if I’m a fan or a judge? or maybe I’m a GP rider working on a new freestyle and I want to know the new rules?

hmmm…

Ok, so if you’re a judge or an elite competitor working on a freestyle, I wish you all the best in your endeavors, if you aren’t, I also wish you all the best in your endeavors.

Re that move, I think a lot of the elite riders do it and have done it, but it still has a level of difficulty, and not everyone seems to do it equally well.

It’s mentioned specifically in the fei’s stuff and in a number of articles discussing freestyle difficulty, so i thought MAYBE it was a relatively pothole free one to pick as an example. Evidently not. :lol::lol:

The point was that observers and judges may evaluate the difficulty level of a freestyle differently. People here are constantly complaining that Anky/Salinero were scored too high, at least Gal and Totilas have the distinction of being the new target, as egon called them.

‘pothole free’?

nobody’s shooting at you, slc!

btw, am still hoping someone knows if they ‘DOD’ judge thing is being implemented?

[QUOTE=Plantagenet;4574538]
‘pothole free’?

nobody’s shooting at you, slc!

btw, am still hoping someone knows if they ‘DOD’ judge thing is being implemented?[/QUOTE]

If you follow the news on the FEI website you can read that all proposals of the DTF are accepted and will be implemented.

If you want my opinion about the DOD i think it will make the freestyles more boaring and predictable and as stated before in another topic it will take out the beautifull things of a freestyle.

They did a number of different sort of scoring/judging trials, I haven’t heard that any would be implemented yet. I would think such changes would take a lot of time to implement, or just to get everyone to agree to.

But I am not sure any of the schemes would completely rid all observers of the feeling that the judging is unfair and biased. There is a very basic and fundamental feeling that a great many people have that all dressage competition is tainted; if they don’t feel ALL dressage competition is tainted, they often feel the big dressage competitions are totally shams and all the judging stinks.

If different judge was judging aspect A of a freestyle, wouldn’t people just say s/he judged that aspect unfairly? How do the different scoring schemes change that?

I’m not saying there is no bias or no unfair judging, or subtle or not so subtle pressures on judges. I’m just not sure what would resolve it. I’m not sure if any change in scoring would completely get rid of that - either actual occurances of unfair judging or accusations of it.

I think the scores should not be posted under the judge’s names, in any case, at any of the major competitions. I think it should be blinded from the time it’s collected from the judge, to avoid pressure on judges to overlook issues. I think that would give the judges more freedom, that could be good or bad.

[QUOTE=KittyG;4561790]
He moved like a normal horse in the NIC clinic video as a young horse. I find the lift in front uncomfortable to watch. The hind end does not match at all.[/QUOTE]

Typical movement produced by deep rollkur training (which he subscribes to). It tends to accentuate the forehand and depress haunch engagement. That is displayed in the poor haunch reach during extensions.

Sad state for dressage, IMO.

An interesting video about “modern dressage” and FEI rules.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urhi0eVzQTo

I found it to be manipulative and over-emotional. Propaganda, designed to stir people up emotionally, irritates me.

Good points can be made in a more documentary fashion. This little film is as subtle as a sledgehammer.