Must you always put words in a person’s mouth?
I said nothing about definitions. “Oh mein Gott in Himmel” was much less painful than “Just shoot me now” while hitting my head against the desk. People are trying to explain it to you. Really and truly, they are trying very hard. Could be that they right and you just might be wrong?
Coreene - some people do not want to be confused with facts. Besides, have you ever wondered what mbm stands for? 
I could speculate…
[QUOTE=siegi b.;4572491]
Coreene - some people do not want to be confused with facts. Besides, have you ever wondered what mbm stands for? :D[/QUOTE]
Does it have to be in English ?
mbm,
Incase you aren’t finding Coreene’s “Oh mein Gott in Himmel” informative enough :rolleyes: and the subsequent (as well as predictable) lapse into personal attacks equally non-informative, here’s what the FEI says:
Article 403 THE WALK
Article 404 THE TROT
2. The trot should show free, active and regular steps.
Article 405 THE CANTER
2. The canter, always with light, cadenced and regular strides, should be moved into without hesitation.
THERE IS NO ADDRESSING TEMPO after I searched the rulebook for the word “tempo” but plenty that addressed regular and cadenced strides within each gait. Tempo, to the best of my knowledge, has to do with SPEED not quality.
more complete info beginning on page 11 http://www.fei.org/Disciplines/Dressage/Documents/Dre_Rules-09-black_28_jan.pdf
[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;4572059]
I don’t think people are disagreeing with the rules; I think they are disagreeing with your interpretation of them.
There is no statement I can find in the rules that requires a single rhythm or cadence for all gaits.
Within each gait of walk OR trot OR canter, the horse’s rhythm and cadence are maintained constant during lengthening and collection.
Again, as a horse’s athleticism develops a rider can (should)ask for slower stride time and maintain impulsion, suspension, and height or reach of the steps.
So as the horse improves the timing can be slowed; yet for any particular ‘snapshot’ in time of a horse’s work, or throughout any test, the timing for walks should be constant, trots should be (a different) constant, canters should be (a different) constant according to the horse’s ability and the rider’s finesse and judgment.[/QUOTE]
i haven’t read all the replies… but i didn’t say or intend to say that all gaits had the same rhythm.
what i was asking about was - if the USDF/USEF definition are as posted, (tempo means beats per minutes/rhythm means how many beats per stride) and in general the horse should display the same beats per minute in the different versions of each gait (collected/extended,etc) what is the purposes of training differing beats per minute?
then i tried to get clear on peoples usage of the terms “tempo” and “rhythm”
then, as part of that i read that the USEF/USDF says that Europeans mean “pace” when they say “tempo” so I was curious about that too.
mbm,
Incase you aren’t finding Coreene’s “Oh mein Gott in Himmel” informative enough :rolleyes: and the subsequent (as well as predictable) lapse into personal attacks equally non-informative, here’s what the FEI says:
Article 403 THE WALK
Article 404 THE TROT
2. The trot should show free, active and regular steps.
Article 405 THE CANTER
2. The canter, always with light, cadenced and regular strides, should be moved into without hesitation.
THERE IS NO ADDRESSING TEMPO after I searched the rulebook for the word “tempo” but plenty that addressed regular and cadenced strides within each gait.
more complete info beginning on page 11 http://www.fei.org/Disciplines/Dressage/Documents/Dre_Rules-09-black_28_jan.pdf
SM - as far as I understand it , based on the USDF/USEF definitions, Tempo means beats per minutes, Rhythm means how many beats per stride. Cadence means how lifted (probably a better word for that)
I didnt make up the definitions. And if it is true that tempo means how many beats per stride then then what the US is teaching truly F’d up!
Edited to add: yeah, I didn’t think it was p[art of the written rules… however the terms are used and are very confusing if one entity is saying tempo/rhythm mean one thing and everyone else thinks it means something else!
All this reminds me of a sweatshirt I used to have:
“Shut up and ride!”
While tempo (italian for speed, movement) is not mentioned – CADENCE is and the definition is on page 11 so here are the desired qualities:
“Cadence is shown in trot and canter and is the result of the proper harmony that a horse shows when it moves with well-marked regularity, impulsion and balance. Cadence must be maintained in all the different trot or canter exercises and in all the variations of these paces.”
source: http://www.fei.org/Disciplines/Dressage/Documents/Dre_Rules-09-black_28_jan.pdf
[QUOTE=caddym;4566888]
[QUOTE=mbm;4566834]so you make the work harder so the horse thinks its easier?
“In a sense. When you wrote this, I thought of what I’ve seen from Kyra kirklund / Jan Brink. They talk about the horses zones - “comfort zone”, “stretch zone” and” panic zone". They suggest that every day, you should push the horse past the comfort zone into the stretch zone, but bringing them back into the comfort zone and never pushing so far as to get to the panic zone. In time, what was once a stretch will become comfortable as the horse becomes familiar with the work and strong."
and since the very bottom of the training scale is “rhythm” how is teaching the horse various tempos helping the horse to find its natural rhythm that helps it relax etc.?
We may never have an agreement on this one. According The German National Equestrian Federation’s book “The Principles of Riding”; Rhythm refers to the regularity of the steps or strides in each gait: they should cover equal distances and also be of equal duration. For example, in working trot, the step taken by one diagonal should cover the same amount of ground as the other, and the beat should be regular. This is a direct quote from page 155
The best definition of tempo comes from Wilhelm Museler’s Riding Logic: "By “tempo” we mean covering a particular distance in a certain period of time (speed).[/QUOTE]
ok, so going back over the (useful) posts I think this is the crux of the “issues” …
the definition of Rhythm and Tempo and completely opposite as taught by the USDF/USEF -
Of course i totally agree with the training concepts in the FN books, Klimke et al.
I think this confusion lies in the fact that the USEF/USDF have conflicting definitions. I wonder if someone was drunk the day they compiled that list? 
Well, obviously the FEI is Klassikul and the USDF isn’t.
[QUOTE=Beasmom;4572831]
All this reminds me of a sweatshirt I used to have:
“Shut up and ride!”[/QUOTE]
This is good.
I suspect the horses don’t care what WE mean by tempo, cadence, rhythm, etc. as long as we RIDE them fairly and 'care’fully.
[QUOTE=mjhco;4572855]
This is good.
I suspect the horses don’t care what WE mean by tempo, cadence, rhythm, etc. as long as we RIDE them fairly and 'care’fully.[/QUOTE]
no, the horses don’t care, this is true.
however, i think it is important to understand how words are used.
and if i have the definitions mixed up it is important to me to know that. if folks are using the words and mean different things it is good to know that too.
[QUOTE=mbm;4572823]
SM - as far as I understand it , based on the USDF/USEF definitions, Tempo means beats per minutes, Rhythm means how many beats per stride. Cadence means how lifted (probably a better word for that)
I didnt make up the definitions. And if it is true that tempo means how many beats per stride then then what the US is teaching truly F’d up!
Edited to add: yeah, I didn’t think it was p[art of the written rules… however the terms are used and are very confusing if one entity is saying tempo/rhythm mean one thing and everyone else thinks it means something else![/QUOTE]
My earlier post was not clear, and I suppose missed your request asking why school different tempos. Communication is an imperfect interaction and the important part is how it is perceived by the receiving end, not the sender’s intent.
So I looked at the USDF site as your reference:
on the Training page:
At the base of the training scale is RHYTHM with energy and tempo.
on the Spectating page:
Tempo and rhythm
Rhythm is the repetition of footfalls. A sound dressage horse has only three correct rhythms – a four-beat walk, two-beat trot, three-beat canter. Tempo is the speed of repetition of strides. Every horse should have a consistent tempo throughout the test that is controlled by the rider, a tempo so obvious you could sing a song to it.
Obviously on a website you are getting an itty bitty taste of the huge menu that dressage encompasses and it is no surprise that it ain’t all there.
So Rhythm shows you what gait you are doing and if the steps are even and regular.
Tempo is number of full strides in a given time period.
Here is the kicker: ‘a consistent tempo throughout thetest that is controlled by the rider.’
I will interpret you question as ‘If you need consistent tempo throughout the test, why do you school varied tempos?’
Because the horse on it’s own varies the tempo as it pleases (just like it is seldom straight, but must be schooled to become so) based on it’s mental and physical state at the time, usually choosing the easiest (not necessarily the most likely to strengthen or develop it’s athletic ability).
Because unless the horse responds by varying the tempo you as rider are not directing it -you must vary the tempo in training to develop submission in the horse (which carries over to other requests, too)
Because you want the horse to relax and pay attention. Slow tempo can reduce tension.
Because you want to add variety to work by gradually adding more challenge, then backing off to rest and regroup, etc. Speeding up a tempo requires muscle firing at a different speed, slowing requires the same. Each builds a differnet aspect of fitness that translates into ability to perform more difficult movement completely.
Because you can’t achieve control of and display consistent tempo without training varied.
Better?
I’m not seeing much of tempo in the USEF rulebook, mainly cadence http://www.usef.org/documents/ruleBook/2009/08-DR.pdf
One thing I did find offensive is in USEF rulebook the horse is always as masculine not feminine: wrong people, can usef writers spell “sexism.” Look to FEI who doesn’t involve sexism in their rulebook…
[QUOTE=Beasmom;4572831]
All this reminds me of a sweatshirt I used to have:
“Shut up and ride!”[/QUOTE]
Just shut up would work, too.
[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;4572878]
My earlier post was not clear, and I suppose missed your request asking why school different tempos. Communication is an imperfect interaction and the important part is how it is perceived by the receiving end, not the sender’s intent.
So I looked at the USDF site as your reference:
on the Training page:
At the base of the training scale is RHYTHM with energy and tempo.
on the Spectating page:
Tempo and rhythm
Rhythm is the repetition of footfalls. A sound dressage horse has only three correct rhythms – a four-beat walk, two-beat trot, three-beat canter. Tempo is the speed of repetition of strides. Every horse should have a consistent tempo throughout the test that is controlled by the rider, a tempo so obvious you could sing a song to it.
Obviously on a website you are getting an itty bitty taste of the huge menu that dressage encompasses and it is no surprise that it ain’t all there.
So Rhythm shows you what gait you are doing and if the steps are even and regular.
Tempo is number of full strides in a given time period.
Here is the kicker: ‘a consistent tempo throughout thetest that is controlled by the rider.’
I will interpret you question as ‘If you need consistent tempo throughout the test, why do you school varied tempos?’
Because the horse on it’s own varies the tempo as it pleases (just like it is seldom straight, but must be schooled to become so) based on it’s mental and physical state at the time, usually choosing the easiest (not necessarily the most likely to strengthen or develop it’s athletic ability).
Because unless the horse responds by varying the tempo you as rider are not directing it -you must vary the tempo in training to develop submission in the horse (which carries over to other requests, too)
Because you want the horse to relax and pay attention. Slow tempo can reduce tension.
Because you want to add variety to work by gradually adding more challenge, then backing off to rest and regroup, etc. Speeding up a tempo requires muscle firing at a different speed, slowing requires the same. Each builds a differnet aspect of fitness that translates into ability to perform more difficult movement completely.
Because you can’t achieve control of and display consistent tempo without training varied.
Better?[/QUOTE]
thanks!
FWIW, no trainer I have worked with, not any book I have read by the ODGs has ever taught to train varying beats per minute (whatever word you use for that)… it has always been find the one that works for that horse for relaxation, swing, etc and then work to make it inherent -
So, I am curious about training a horse to vary its beats per minute.
thanks for taking the time to explain.
Sm, for crying out loud!
In German, Das Pferd is a neuter noun. I weep to think of the mares and stallions who are hurt by this.
usef rulebook darling, not german, not FEI:
" His walk is regular, free and unconstrained. His trot is free, supple, regular, sustained and active. His canter is united, light and cadenced. His quarters are never inactive or sluggish." Etc, etc, etc.
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