Edward Gal & Totilas 92.3% GPF at Olympia

[ASB_Stars]

[QUOTE=egontoast;4568511]
Interesting how people keep confusing test riding and training.

You want your dressage horse adjustible in every way. You can’t train your horse to be adjustible in every way unless you change your requests in training.

If your horse is stuck in one 'frame" , one tempo, one speed, etc etc, the horse will be on auto pilot and not listening to your aids.

I’m not explaining it well but it boggles my mind that some people seem to want their dressage horses to do western pleasure . I don’t think the ODGs intended that.[/QUOTE]

Well, that’s why I bothered to mention the spring concept. The adjustability in each gait is essential, and the ability to adjust within the gaits increases with correct training, and allows a horse to move up the levels.

Whenever I find that people are using as many words as possible to explain what can be summed up simply, with just a few words, my bullshit meter goes off. This is not that complicated. Let’s all try the KISS method.:lol:

[TheHorseProblem]

[QUOTE=slc2;4568378]
he did NOT want to get overly artificially rigid with the tempo, just to match a music beat.[/QUOTE]

It is my understanding that the freestyle test comes first. Then you give a tape of your test to the music person who can speed up or slow down the music electronically to match the horse’s gaits. I don’t know what Klimke was worried about.

[ladyofthedawn]

[QUOTE=TheHorseProblem;4568685]
It is my understanding that the freestyle test comes first. Then you give a tape of your test to the music person who can speed up or slow down the music electronically to match the horse’s gaits. I don’t know what Klimke was worried about.[/QUOTE]

First you make the choreography based on the strong and weak points of your horse. And when everything is perfect and you have found the choreography that suits your horse the best. You start working on the music. :yes:

@ SLC2 You are turning things around. Klimke always said “First comes my horse and the music must follow” .

[InsideLeg2OutsideRei]

[QUOTE=Aleks27;4562932]
:yes: a![](ain!

But, seriously, if this:
[IMG]http://i45.tinypic.com/i4ia81.jpg)
is getting these near perfect scores, why are people not allowed to express negative views without being jumped on?

c. Yes, these horses are not abused. Abuse is a strong word and should not be used here really. This horse, IMHO, is not being ridden in a correct way and the manner that he is being ridden in is detrimental to him.

So please, do not attack those who are not in favour of this “style” of dressage (if it can still be called that), and let us speak our minds. I believe that on the BD forums, Totilas is also not allowed to be discussed, so hopefully we will be able to retain our freedom of speech here.[/QUOTE]

I agree with Aleks here. I think this lovely horse is extremeley talented (and yeah, send him on over to me, I’d LEARN to sit that trot if it kills me!), but not presented correctly to deserve the extremely high scores he’s getting. (Of course I measily little unproven sort-of-3rd-level rider would ride him classically correct :winkgrin:).

[slc2]

“It is my understanding that the freestyle test comes first. Then you give a tape of your test to the music person who can speed up or slow down the music electronically to match the horse’s gaits. I don’t know what Klimke was worried about.”

That doesn’t make any difference. There are natural variations in tempo that the young horse needs, was his point. That he did not want to stick the horse in such an unvarying tempo as the above. The horse needs to trot at 74 beats a minute, 70, 78, etc, not any unvarying music beat. It doesn’t matter if the ‘beat is slowed down or speeded up to match the horse’s gaits’, because the gaits always need to have some necessary variation, and allowing it is more necessary for the youngster.

And you know what? I think that given what he did during his life, he was worth listening to.

[Aleks27]

[QUOTE=Rats;4564993]
Alecks - read Simon Battram’s critique of Wednesday’s performance on Dr Ritter’s CD forum.[/QUOTE]

Can you please give me a link to the specific post? Thank you.

[lalahartma1]

[QUOTE=ridgeback;4560276]
Grand Prix scores
http://eventcontent.hippoonline.de/453/sta_erg/01_D_ergENG.htm?style=olympia

GP has scores per movement.

Grand Prix Freestyle scores
http://eventcontent.hippoonline.de/453/453online1ENG.htm?style=olympia[/QUOTE]

Can any the breakdown on the freestyle score? The above is jumping GP.

[TheHorseProblem]

[QUOTE=slc2;4569715]
“It is my understanding that the freestyle test comes first. Then you give a tape of your test to the music person who can speed up or slow down the music electronically to match the horse’s gaits. I don’t know what Klimke was worried about.”

That doesn’t make any difference. There are natural variations in tempo that the young horse needs, was his point. That he did not want to stick the horse in such an unvarying tempo as the above. The horse needs to trot at 74 beats a minute, 70, 78, etc, not any unvarying music beat. It doesn’t matter if the ‘beat is slowed down or speeded up to match the horse’s gaits’, because the gaits always need to have some necessary variation, and allowing it is more necessary for the youngster.

And you know what? I think that given what he did during his life, he was worth listening to.[/QUOTE]

Why would a rider create a freestyle set in stone for a youngster? The idea is absurd. No horse “needs” to do a freestyle to move up the levels. No freestyle test would last very long for a talented horse and rider pair. What harm has come to any horse due to a freestyle?

[slc2]

Don’t go after me, go after Reiner Klimke.

[mbm]

[QUOTE=belambi;4568299]
Interesting discussion… MBM. are you musical ?.. if not , it doesnt matter… however let me try and show you something…

When you look at a piece of music There are very many words for changes in tempo…ie… a fast happy waltz is same rhythm but different tempo than a slow sad waltz …however, no matter how much you change the tempo (ie the speed of the rhythm,) the rhythm still remains the same…(unless , in the case of music the composer or player choses to change the time signature… which in the case of a horse would be a change of gait.)

Now… yes, this is something that freestyle has made us very much aware of, for example… an extended trot performed correctly, is entirely different tempo than a collected trot… but still the same rhythm. Then of course there is an entirely new concept that comes with freestyle, and that is the concept of Rubato… which is the adjustment of tempo purely for expressive purposes…The word tempo is designed to vary,.it means timing… its not constant[/QUOTE]

as far as i understand it (see usdf definitions posted below) Rhythm means the beats of the gait ie; a trot has a 2 beat rhythm, the canter 3 the walk 4.

tempo is the rate of the foot falls within the rhythm of the gait and should not vary for pace within the gait.

ie: the trot should have the same tempo 1 2 1 2 1 2 1 2 no matter what trot you are doing ie: working, collected, extended etc. that is the goal (ie rhythm & regularity ) there shouldn’t be a working trot that is 1212, extended that is 1 2 1 2 and passage that is 1 2 1 2 1 2 - in other words we should be able to use a metronome and all paces within a gait should be at that tempo.

http://www.dressageshowinfo.com/images/DressageTerminology.pdf
Tempo: Rate of repetition of the rhythm. Beats per minute (as would be determined by a
metronome). Tempo is not necessarily correlated with length of stride or miles per hour.
The words “rhythm” and “regularity” are often mistakenly used interchangeably with
tempo.

Rhythm: The characteristic sequence of footfalls and phases of a given gait. For
purposes of dressage, the only correct rhythms are those of the pure walk, pure trot, and
pure canter "

ETA: I just realized that the bottom portion of this post was cut off… … I cant remember my exact post… but , all I am trying to figure out/get clear , is why do the terms being used have opposite definitions? Is the USDF incorrect?

[ladyofthedawn]

Forget all these books and wikipedia stuff and specially Mike Matson…

Belambi is right <period>

[siegi_b]

mbm - you need to get yourself one of those little motorized toy ponies… They’d be right up your alley! Perfect, to be exact, not just excellent. :lol:

[egontoast]

paralysis by analysis= joyless

[slc2]

I think the reason it gets hard to discuss things like this with you mbm, is because you get so incredibly rigid about these things, you keep reciting your mantra (the definition from a book) in fact, you’re so rigid that you wind up completely rejecting the basic practices and principles of the ‘classical dressage’ you so adamantly profess to love. Why, is just not something I can begin to comprehend.

[D_BaldStockings]

As I understand it, the rider determines the rapidity of the tempo = setting the metronome faster or slower.

The rider also determines the length of stride and amount of impulsion on display. The horse responds (hopefully) to the rider’s requests -as it is able.

Since it takes more energy (muscle power and relaxation/stretch) to step slower but keep the impulsion and suspension or length of stride, increasing the tempo of a gait after slowing the tempo will seem easier to a horse: it can now use more tendon rebound and less control in performing.
So as a gymnastic in training the trainer would change the tempo to both challenge the horse and check progress of the training.

Most dressage strives for a slower tempo, longer or higher stride and keeping the rhythm constant within each gait for regularity and to display the strength and equal development of the musculature of the horse; first step of piaffe or passage same as the last if the horse is able.

[mbm]

D_BaldStockings , I agree the rider controls the tempo, but i am not sure about the rhythm changing… at least if we use the terms as defined by the USDF…

as far as i understand it : dressage strives for the same tempo and it is just the length or height of each stride that changes.

Maybe this isnt taught anymore?

I am not sure, but this is one of those threads that makes me feel like i am in the twighlight zone!

at the risk of being called rigid, it does make a lot more sense to me if europeans mean “pace” when they say tempo.

now I will have to go and talk to my trainer friends and see what they think.

[Coreene]

Oh mein Gott in Himmel. :dead:

[mbm]

[QUOTE=Coreene;4571911]
Oh mein Gott in Himmel. :dead:[/QUOTE]

so you are saying the USDF/USEF definitions are wrong?

btw: happy holidays to you too

[slc2]

No, the problem is not with the definitions.

[D_BaldStockings]

I don’t think people are disagreeing with the rules; I think they are disagreeing with your interpretation of them.

There is no statement I can find in the rules that requires a single rhythm or cadence for all gaits.
Within each gait of walk OR trot OR canter, the horse’s rhythm and cadence are maintained constant during lengthening and collection.

Again, as a horse’s athleticism develops a rider can (should)ask for slower stride time and maintain impulsion, suspension, and height or reach of the steps.

So as the horse improves the timing can be slowed; yet for any particular ‘snapshot’ in time of a horse’s work, or throughout any test, the timing for walks should be constant, trots should be (a different) constant, canters should be (a different) constant according to the horse’s ability and the rider’s finesse and judgment.