I think going at different tempos has a psychological advantage also, of keeping both horse and rider alert and communicating with each other, both during and between movements.
so you make the work harder so the horse thinks its easier?
and since the very bottom of the training scale is “rhythm” how is teaching the horse various tempos helping the horse to find its natural rhythm that helps it relax etc.?
these are serious questions and to me seem… well… like double speak.
teach a horse to have no one tempo so it has one tempo - teach the horse very hard work so it thinks the works is easy?
clearly i must be missing something here.
here are the terms as i understand them (altho if indeed the europeans mean “pace” when they say tempo then that makes much more sense to me) :
Tempo
Beats per minute, as would be determined by a metronome. [NOTE: Some Europeans use the term “tempo” to refer to what in English is more correctly called Pace.]
Pace
- The variation within the gait; e.g., collected, working, lengthened, medium, extended. The variation in meters per minute occurs ideally because of the change in stride lenght, with no change in tempo. [NOTE: The FEI Rules for Dressage are at this time without any specific term for what in English (per Webster) is correctly called “pace.” Further, the FEI translation of the French l’allure was “pace,” rather than the more exact English translation of “gait”.]
- A gait in which the lateral pairs of legs move in unison (also called “amble”) - not a dressage gait.
Rhythm
The characteristic sequence of footfalls and phases of a given gait. For purposes of dressage, the only correct rhythms are those of the pure walk, pure trot, and pure canter (not those of amble, pace, rack, etc.). [NOTE: Rhythm is sometimes used mistakenly to mean tempo; this usage is not consistent with the correct English definition of “rhythm” (per Webster), nor with its normal usage in the music world.]
I’ve never had any teacher or clinician use the term “pace” in a lesson. An eventing or jumping trainer might say, “Pick up the pace”, when they mean for you to “get the lead out”.
I will intentionally slow the tempo on a horse that has difficulty relaxing and stretching. Slowing down usually helps such horses. I’ll ask for a WP jog if that’s what it takes to encourage the horse to stretch and relax. Once he “gets it”, we can increase tempo slowly.
I think you’re splitting hairs.
[B]
[QUOTE=mbm;4566834]
so you make the work harder so the horse thinks its easier? [/B]
“In a sense. When you wrote this, I thought of what I’ve seen from Kyra kirklund / Jan Brink. They talk about the horses zones - “comfort zone”, “stretch zone” and” panic zone". They suggest that every day, you should push the horse past the comfort zone into the stretch zone, but bringing them back into the comfort zone and never pushing so far as to get to the panic zone. In time, what was once a stretch will become comfortable as the horse becomes familiar with the work and strong."
and since the very bottom of the training scale is “rhythm” how is teaching the horse various tempos helping the horse to find its natural rhythm that helps it relax etc.?
We may never have an agreement on this one. According The German National Equestrian Federation’s book “The Principles of Riding”; Rhythm refers to the regularity of the steps or strides in each gait: they should cover equal distances and also be of equal duration. For example, in working trot, the step taken by one diagonal should cover the same amount of ground as the other, and the beat should be regular. This is a direct quote from page 155
The best definition of tempo comes from Wilhelm Museler’s Riding Logic: "By “tempo” we mean covering a particular distance in a certain period of time (speed).
so you make the work harder so the horse thinks its easier?
Mbm, I think your assumption is that this tempo work is a part of the ‘bad new dressage’ you hate so much, when really, it’s a part of all dressage training and has been for a very, very long time.
Different tempos work the horse’s muscles differently. Different tempos make a more gymnasticized athlete that is fitter and more protected from injury. Different tempos tune the horse and rider to each other rather than them ‘coasting along’ tuning each other out. Different tempos keep the horse responsive to the rider’s aids.
Tempo changes are somewhat like interval training, in so far as interval training works specific muscles, and then rests them, over and over. During the slower tempo some muscles rest, others work harder. During the faster tempo, the muscles that were resting now work harder again.
Tempo changes allow the rider to alternately rest and work different sets of muscles, instead of working all the muscles the same way the whole time.
A slower or faster tempo is not ‘harder or easier’. A slow tempo challenges and develops balance, where the faster tempo requires and develops more impulsion or power. They eaach work different muscles in a different mix.
Alternation like this is a part of all modern athletic training, but it’s been a part of dressage for a very, very long time.
and since the very bottom of the training scale is “rhythm” how is teaching the horse various tempos helping the horse to find its natural rhythm that helps it relax etc.?
Your problems here are many. One is the definition of relaxation. It is not that the horse should be ‘relaxed’ in the sense of Margaritaville and watching TV. The ‘relaxation’ is actually ‘looseness’, with the muscles working without getting braced and tight.
The point of tempo work you miss, is that the whole point of varying the tempo is that the horse learns to use his muscles in each tempo so that he remains loose, balanced and tuned into his rider in all of the tempos.
these are serious questions and to me seem… well… like double speak.
It’s only double speak because you want it to be. To others, it makes sense and is not double speak.
teach a horse to have no one tempo so it has one tempo -
You go wrong here too. Most of the time, the work was done in a consistent tempo. The tempo work occured at specific points, such as in the half pass.
I’ve done the same tempo exercise in the half pass, because we had a clinic with someone who’d worked with Schumacher.
My jaw dropped. I was like, ‘OH MY GOD’. It was incredible, absolutely fantastic. My horse not only had better activity and energy when we went back to the ordinary tempo, he seemed to have a real relish for the work and alertness.
teach the horse very hard work so it thinks the works is easy?
You’re distorting this. Partly I suppose because some have replied, ‘yes it is harder’, but that’s not really exactly right. The point is that each tempo gives the rider something valuable, gives the horse a chance to work a different group of muscles and give the other group a chance to rest, etc.
clearly i must be missing something here.
I get the impression you work very, very hard to do so.
“Pace”
People use the word in different ways, all understandable by context. Reiner Klimke would yell during lessons, ‘Make pace!’ when people were going slow. ‘Pace’ can also mean a lateral gait, the ‘paces’ in the english sense (walk, trot canter are ‘paces’).
I have the uncomfortable feeling going over these daffynitions again isn’t going to resolve the basic problem.
Tempo
Beats per minute, as would be determined by a metronome.
Most a the time.
what in English is more correctly called Pace.]
LOL. Everyone thinks their use of a word is ‘more correct’.
Rhythm
The characteristic sequence of footfalls and phases of a given gait.
What you are trying to say is that any change in tempo is WRONG. BAD. Not GOOD.
Won’t get too far with that one. First of all, there are constant and natural changes in the tempo of the gaits. THe ideal is that the extended trot is not 200 beats a minute while the collected trot is 2 beats a minute. There are natural variations, and the reason why Klimke griped so much about freestyles.
Good post SLC. Compliments :yes:
MBM… try looking at it this way, Rhythm is the REGULARITY of the stride… tempo is the SPEED of the rhythm.
[QUOTE=egontoast;4563540]
I think Totilas presents a problem for some people because he has been trained with rollkur yet he seems very relaxed in his work and exhibits none of the tension and spookiness of some other top horses which people love to criticize for being spooky and unsettled in the halt. So they can’t criticize him for the usual things. blahblahblah.
OK Here’s one who is calm and relaxed in his work and not spooky. New complaints must be found. He’s got to be awful. I think the term is cognitive dissonance if I reach back to Psych 100.
He is not perfect. No horse will ever be perfect. There are issues with the extended trot, for example. I don’t think anyone argues with that. You can be sure that the trainer knows this if we know it.
I wonder how many here think Matine was superior to Totilas. In the minority I was not a fan of MAtine’s tests. There you had the high knees and the dropped back and not even a working trot and yet she was the bulletin board darling.
I think Totilas even with his flaws is a much better athlete than Matine, Salinero, Bonfire, and I’d have to think about the rest.
He’s imperfect like everyone else but I do think people go out of their way to trash him because they don;t like the training philosophy. Step back, maybe.
He’s the new target.[/QUOTE]
Great post!
Yes it is a great post, especially, ‘He’s the new target’.
Agree with Egontoast’s post below:
"I wonder how many here think Matine was superior to Totilas. In the minority I was not a fan of MAtine’s tests. There you had the high knees and the dropped back and not even a working trot and yet she was the bulletin board darling. "
Totilas looks relaxed and REALLY working over his back, unlike Matine - the bb darling :).
Yeah, I know how it appeared, but I think there was a lot more going on than that horse just wasn’t so hot.
Early on, she looked like one of those very slow developing, slow to mature horses that is also very hard and slow to get fit. I think she was just moved along faster than her type really supports.
After the first time she was on the injured list, I saw some video and pics of her as she was getting back into work.
I was just stunned. It just did not even look like the same horse. She was so much slimmer and fitter and so much better and stronger over her back.
I read this, and went on to look around the rest of the forum, because I said to myself…“walk away…”
But, I feel compelled to add this: training a dressage horse, correctly, is about learning to coil a spring- longitudinally, as well as laterally. You teach the horse to lift, and work over and through their backs, to raise the base of their neck, and then to lift their poll, all the while you are asking them to be elastic in their strides, going forward, and coming back to you. They are a BIG spring. If you do not keep them balanced, the spring comes undone, and you are back to putting it together, yet again. There are two states of being in dressage-correct, and correcting. We live our lives in the latter. We strive for the former.
I love this big horse. I love watching he and Edward together. I think he is marvelous, and signals the paradigm shift in dressage that was heralded by horses like Rohdiamant, Matine, and Relevant. You may not agree with me, and that is just dandy. I paint what I see. (Gahan Wilson)
first, the definitions i posted were not made up by me - they are the USDF definitions.
2nd: i am not insulting anyone and would hope for the same respect back.
3rd: while i of course understand and agree with pushing the envelope a little at a time, that doesn’t sound like what was posted as: make it hard so the horse thinks its easy - … which to me makes no sense.
and finally: tempo. tempo is, as i understand it, the time between foot falls… and each horse theoretically has an inherent tempo that clicks with them and which makes their ability to relax (yes, i said relax and i dont mean it in a slumping lumpy way… i mean it is a dressage way - ie just like the scale says)…
i also get changing the type of trot - forward, back, more cadenced, less, etc etc.
what i am asking about is why would you change the tempo - ie: the timing of the foot falls?
it makes a lot more sense to me if by tempo they mean speed/cadence…
while i know many of you dont believe in the ODGs - I have yet to read one that says that changing the tempo is desirable.
and again here is the usdf definition of tempo:
Tempo Rate of repetition of the rhythm, the strides, or of the emphasized beats – beats per minute, as may be measured by a metronome (for walk and trot, one or both footfalls of the front pair of legs are typically counted; for canter, the inside front footfall is typically counted).
[Note: historically often used in Europe to denote what the USDF defines as Pace. Therefore, the FEI does not currently use the word Tempo in its Rule Book, but uses the terms Rhythm and Cadence instead.]
http://pages.swcp.com/~scaskey/usdf-glossary.html
and here again from the usdf site:
- Tempo and Rhythm
Rhythm is the repetition of footfalls. A sound dressage horse has only three correct rhythms – a four-beat walk, two-beat trot, three-beat canter. Tempo is the speed of repetition of strides. Every horse should have a consistent tempo throughout the test that is controlled by the rider, a tempo so obvious you could sing a song to it.
http://www.usdf.org/about/about-dressage/sguide.asp
3rd: while i of course understand and agree with pushing the envelope a little at a time, that doesn’t sound like what was posted as: make it hard so the horse thinks its easy - … which to me makes no sense.
I don’t think it’s even true. Maybe the person who said that doesn’t really understand tempo exercises. What we were told at the time was that it allows some muscles to rest and others to work harder, then the other muscles have their turn. Like interval training. Builds strength. Also improves communication with horse and rider.
and finally: tempo. tempo is, as i understand it, the time between foot falls…
If you want to split hairs. Tempo is the number of footfalls per minute, counted usually when the same foot hits the ground.
and each horse theoretically has an inherent tempo that clicks with them and which makes their ability to relax (yes, i said relax and i dont mean it in a slumping lumpy way… i mean it is a dressage way - ie just like the scale says)…
This is where you have your basic problem dealing with this, that you believe there is only one ‘correct tempo’ that you should do all the time.
i also get changing the type of trot - forward, back, more cadenced, less, etc etc.
what i am asking about is why would you change the tempo - ie: the timing of the foot falls?
Tempo is not ‘timing of the footfalls’ nor the time between footfalls (individual hoofs hitting the ground). The footfalls, are the individual hoofs hitting the ground, and in each gait remain exactly the same and have the same relative timing between each other despite any tempo exercises. There are just more complete gait cycles (series of footfalls, 4, 2 or 3, or ‘strides’) per minute. There is the same relative timespace between footfalls.
So if there are 14 strides around a 10 m circle, and you do the tempo exercise, normally, the tempo and the length of stride changes, so there would be 12 strides around the 10 m circle.
it makes a lot more sense to me if by tempo they mean speed/cadence…
Speed is like ‘miles per hour’. It means how much ground is covered in a given period of time. Speed in horses can be increased by taking a longer stride, taking more strides per unit of time, advancing the hind leg more quickly, or all 3.
Cadence is a combination of rhythm and suspension, in the sense that a passage has more cadence than a collected trot.
while i know many of you dont believe in the ODGs - I have yet to read one that says that changing the tempo is desirable.
I have yet to find one who says it isn’t.
and again here is the usdf definition of tempo:
Tempo Rate of repetition of the rhythm…
Yep.
3. Tempo and Rhythm
Rhythm is the repetition of footfalls.
Rhythm has several meanings.
First, the regularity of the tempo. That the tempo does not change from 100 strides per minute to 20 strides per minute to 50 strides per minute, in one gait/exercise. The horse does not shuffle along and then scurry madly along.
Second, the correctness of the footfalls in relation to each other.
For example, the walk is less correct when the rhythm is 12…34…12…34…12…
More correct, or pure a rhythm, is 1…2…3…4…1…2…3…4.
A sound dressage horse has only three correct rhythms – a four-beat walk, two-beat trot, three-beat canter.
Tempo is the speed of repetition of strides. Every horse should have a consistent tempo throughout the test …
This is where you get off the track. That the test and schooling are the same.
In schooling, I may at times go very, very forward in canter, with a very quick tempo, because the horse needs that right then. Maybe he’s getting a little slow off the leg or is just getting a little bored and needs a changeup. I may slow the tempo very far down, when the horse needs THAT, for when I am working more on the carrying capacity. I might make counter canter with a counter bend, or a leg yield with more bend and the haunches trailing (Schumacher), or I might ask my horse to do any number of things, for schooling.
The master class was about schooling, not about riding a test in a competition arena. If you think using different tempos is so bad and so incorrect, and have never tried it, you might not be in a good position to condemn it.
Further, there are even times in the test, where one varies the tempo. For example, if I started to feel that my horse was getting inattentive or distracted, or not responding well, I might move the tempo up. Too, if I felt that my horse was getting a little too over the top, say in a medium trot, and getting too strong, I might even collect him and completely blow the score for the medium trot! I might have to rather than have the next 3 movements totally messed up.
It’s really a constant feedback process, a conversation. If I can’t go to a stronger, faster tempo, or down to a softer, slower tempo, I really have not trained my horse.
Good post, Slc, especially the last two paragraphs.
Interesting discussion… MBM. are you musical ?.. if not , it doesnt matter… however let me try and show you something…
When you look at a piece of music There are very many words for changes in tempo…ie… a fast happy waltz is same rhythm but different tempo than a slow sad waltz …however, no matter how much you change the tempo (ie the speed of the rhythm,) the rhythm still remains the same…(unless , in the case of music the composer or player choses to change the time signature… which in the case of a horse would be a change of gait.)
Now… yes, this is something that freestyle has made us very much aware of, for example… an extended trot performed correctly, is entirely different tempo than a collected trot… but still the same rhythm. Then of course there is an entirely new concept that comes with freestyle, and that is the concept of Rubato… which is the adjustment of tempo purely for expressive purposes…The word tempo is designed to vary,.it means timing… its not constant
Everytime when a horse wins, the magic word RollKür of Hyperflexion is thrown in. Even with the rides of Steffen Peters and Ravel it came up again and again. The tests I did on twenty dressage bulletin boards around the world, proved without any doubt that 50% of the people don’t even know what it is. Just tell me where is the saga coming from that Totilas was trained in hyperflexion. I am very close to the fire and I didn’t see it. Did it show on Google Earth 
Back on topic
Watch these interviews :
I don’t agree with that either. Sorry to be a pill, very respectfully, but MBM is oversimplifying in one direction and you’re going in the opposite, but I still think you’re both wrong.
For example, the extended trot and the collected trot are supposed to have NEARLY the same tempo (strides per minute) in the final product. That IS, in fact what the judge is looking for and what he is SUPPOSED to look for, read the rules as well as hundreds of years of literature.
When in training, the trainer works tempo exercises, he has a purpose right in that moment of something he is trying to address and correct or develop. He STILL wants to be ready in the show, to show the judge that his tempos in collected trot and extended trot are quite close.
We may not be doing EXACTLY that every moment in schooling, but the way the finished product is supposed to look, is indeed that the extended trot and collected trot do have a SIMILAR tempo.
They don’t usually have EXACTLY the same tempo, but it is a very basic principle, that the goal is to have the tempos be very similar. In the sense that the collected trot is to be energetic and active, but not quick, flat and stacatto. The extended trot the same, when the tempo becomes very quick and the strides jerky and more rapid in the extended trot, it is called ‘running’ and indicates a loss of balance.
In fact, all forms of walk, all forms of trot except piaffe and passage, and all forms of canter, are indeed, supposed to be as similar as possible in tempo, in the finished product.
Piaffe can often have a faster rhythm than the collected trot because of the difference in suspension. Passage can often have a slower rhythm than collected trot because of the difference in cadence and suspension (we hope!).
The problem with the freestyle, and what Klimke objected to when the freestyle was going to be made a part of many competitions, was that the trainer is tempted to alter the tempo TOO MUCH in the youngster simply during all its schooling, to match the music tempo rigidly during a competition.
Klimke ALSO felt that there were small and necessary and natural variations in tempo, not just with the trainer asking for it, but necessary for the less schooled horse during schooling and initiated by the horse, and especially with youngsters, he did NOT want to get overly artificially rigid with the tempo, just to match a music beat.
Interesting how people keep confusing test riding and training.
You want your dressage horse adjustible in every way. You can’t train your horse to be adjustible in every way unless you change your requests in training.
If your horse is stuck in one 'frame" , one tempo, one speed, etc etc, the horse will be on auto pilot and not listening to your aids.
I’m not explaining it well but it boggles my mind that some people seem to want their dressage horses to do western pleasure . I don’t think the ODGs intended that.
