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Enlighten me: what does the AKC do for dogs?

The Menagerie
#61

[QUOTE=S1969;5863166]
That’s just a naive view of the world. It’s not about beauty anyway, it’s about conformation – just like in horses. The breed club writes the standard and applies to the AKC for admittance.

I understand when breed clubs feel that conformation (via the AKC) becomes a “more important” standard than performance titles and that leads to the detriment of the breed. Usually, though, when you hear of people calling dog shows “beauty pageants”, they have a mutt with a great temperment, and for some reason begrudge purebred dogs for being purebred (great temperment or not).[/QUOTE]

Yeah that’s crap. I have a Dobe right now (that was a rescue) that I would love to do some serious obedience with. As far as I know, I can’t (I am in Canada). Well, I can train all I want but not compete and earn titles. So stupid. This dog is a very nice example of his breed (more correct than most “registered” Dobes I see, with perfectly cropped ears I might add), clearly purebred but because I do not know his history he is not eligible. THAT is what I think is useless about AKC or CKC (Canadian…not Continental).

IMO they do very little to encourage the right sort of breeding and preserve breeds. They certainly do not encourage anything good for dogs on the whole. They cater to people that like to have a piece of paper to talk about.

I think breed clubs should exist and if they accept a dog in their registry there should be national and international competitions for titles. Hopefully said breed club would register dogs based on correct conformation as well as temperament and health. But that is pure fantasy I suppose so I guess Schutzhund is where I will take my “mutt” and continue to begrudge purebred dogs :no:

#62

the AKC does what it does for their own reasons,

namely, making money. Which is fine as long as people realize it. They’ve never promoted themselves as being an organization working for the well-being of dogs. AKC policies are intended to promote the breeding, sale, registration of, and promotion of conformation-line purebred dogs. Many of their “other” activities are self-admitted to have been designed to encourage this primary activity. For example, their recent decision to allow non-purebreds to compete in some sports was passed as a way to introduce the dog owner to purebreds- the idea being a general public person would bring their mutt to the sport, see a lot of purebreds also competing, and hopefully (by the AKC) their next dog would be a purebred purchase that would help line the AKC’s coffers.

I personally try to not contribute money to the AKC because I feel that they COULD HAVE done so much for the welfare of dogs, and they didn’t. Not an organization I choose to support until and unless they change their policies dramatically.

If you don’t want to support puppy mills, don’t buy puppy mill dogs. If you want to support healthy, functional dogs don’t buy dogs from conformation-only breeders- if the line has a lot of conformation titles and not too many performance titles stay far away. If it’s a real working breed you might want to stay away from ANY line that has ANY conformation titles- sadly, the majority of real working breed lines are split into non-functional beauty dogs and functional working dogs, and the working dogs, the ones that really represent the breed as it is meant to be, would never win in the conformation ring. In some breeds, such as the English setter, the beauty lines and the working lines don’t even look remotely like the same breed anymore.

#63

[QUOTE=cardicorgi;5864575]
Do any of you recall the 2006 sneaky attempt the AKC leadership made to contract with PetLand (which sells puppies) and Hunte Corporation, one of the biggest puppy mills in the country, in an attempt to get more registration fees? http://www.doggedblog.com/doggedblog/2006/09/akc_update_3.html

Delegates and the membership were outraged, and made a big enough (appropriate) stink that the contract was rescinded. VERY interesting reading - worth googling.

That episode alone tells me that the leadership of the AKC does not have the best interests of dogs in mind. Most AKC member/breeders, however, do; these are the responsible breeders who campaign their dogs, test for known diseases/defects etc., and stop breeding a line if anything nasty crops up, including temperament. They are out to improve their breed. These are the same breeders who screen potential buyers and send their dogs out with spay/neuter contracts.

It’s too bad that in order to continue to be responsible breeders, they must align themselves with the AKC in order to campaign their dogs. Small ironies.[/QUOTE]

No one is saying the AKC is perfect, or doesn’t has stupid ideas at times, like the way they treated the old border collie and maybe the jrt clubs and lost them and then went around them to still include those breeds.

From all the AKC does, most of it has permitted the dog world be where it is today and I think for the better.
You may point fingers at their missteps and decide the world of dogs would have been better without them.
We just have to agree to disagree.:yes:

#64

[QUOTE=Bluey;5864571]
The ones I remember the talk was about recently were bills in Mississipi or Missouri.

Don’t know which one in TX you are referring to, there were no warnings and cries of signing anything for those, that I am aware of.

As they explained it, some was in the MS? bill, some was being prepared to be added, that was going to make any breeding, puppy mill or not practically impossible eventually with the regulation extremes it was opening.

Why don’t you ask the AKC directly for clarification about their stance in those bills and your concerns?:yes:[/QUOTE]

See, that’s just it. “The talk”. You didn’t read the bills. You just accepted “the talk” about them.

AKC (understandably) does have an agenda to protect its income by fighting anything that would adversely affect the number of dogs registered each year with AKC.

And it therefore spins the info to make it seem the sky is falling.

Then people (like you) buy into what the AKC claims and pass on the information as gospel - without READING THE DAMNED BILLS.

Oh, and yes AKC had the Texas bill prominently on their website and radar and email campaign - urging all members to write their congressmen and oppose this bill because it would serious affect the average dog owner and the small breeder. But a reading of the bill indicates no such thing.

BTW, here is the bill that passed (and believe me, it is almost identical to most of the others that have passed in other states):
http://www.legis.state.tx.us/tlodocs/82R/billtext/html/HB01451F.htm

The only thing in that bill that gives me pause is that a committee will decide the amount of the licensing fee, so that is up in the air. But most bills such as this have made the fee approximately $100 per breeding animal - most as a one-time fee but a couple as a annual fee.

Still, if you cannot pay $100 per female to breed and sell, then you have no business having more than 11 breeding females and selling puppies.

#65

[QUOTE=Sonesta;5864671]
See, that’s just it. “The talk”. You didn’t read the bills. You just accepted “the talk” about them.

AKC (understandably) does have an agenda to protect its income by fighting anything that would adversely affect the number of dogs registered each year with AKC.

And it therefore spins the info to make it seem the sky is falling.

Then people (like you) buy into what the AKC claims and pass on the information as gospel - without READING THE DAMNED BILLS.

Oh, and yes AKC had the Texas bill prominently on their website and radar and email campaign - urging all members to write their congressmen and oppose this bill because it would serious affect the average dog owner and the small breeder. But a reading of the bill indicates no such thing.

BTW, here is the bill that passed (and believe me, it is almost identical to most of the others that have passed in other states):
http://www.legis.state.tx.us/tlodocs/82R/billtext/html/HB01451F.htm

The only thing in that bill that gives me pause is that a committee will decide the amount of the licensing fee, so that is up in the air. But most bills such as this have made the fee approximately $100 per breeding animal - most as a one-time fee but a couple as a annual fee.

Still, if you cannot pay $100 per female to breed and sell, then you have no business having more than 11 breeding females and selling puppies.[/QUOTE]

Not quite so, I did read that original “puppy mill” bill in Ms?, where it talked about wire crates and how stacked and all those regulations, that some were really a bit absurd and just were giving supposedly animal control police powers, when some of the animal control people are animal rights people after anyone breeding dogs they can attack.

Why don’t you ask the AKC what they meant and what their objections were and tell them what your concern are?
You don’t see anything to object to those bills?
Ask what they see to do so, maybe we don’t have the whole story there.
Your guess as of their motivation is also not but a mere guess, as mine are.

Everyone that has to handle any business with their main organizations has to play by their rules and of course at times they won’t make sense or won’t like them, but you still have to work within them if you want to be doing business where they operate.
Want to register and/or show AKC dogs, you have to follow their rules.
If the AKC fights some bills and you don’t like it, grumble and complain to them, but is that reason enough to badmouth them in general and drag their name in the mud, as some then do?
Guess it is.:frowning:

#66

Can’t you get an ILP number for this dog and show in OB or Rally or Agility?

#67

[QUOTE=vtdobes;5864765]
Can’t you get an ILP number for this dog and show in OB or Rally or Agility?[/QUOTE]

Not with the CKC as far as I know. Would love someone to prove me wrong though!

#68

[QUOTE=sisu27;5864584]
IMO they do very little to encourage the right sort of breeding and preserve breeds. They certainly do not encourage anything good for dogs on the whole. They cater to people that like to have a piece of paper to talk about. [/QUOTE]

Well…I guess that depends on WHICH piece of paper we’re talking about. The registration? Not unless you also have the Championship Certificate, or one of the other many titles that the AKC offers.

I have a dog that was born in Canada and is CKC registered. But when it was clear that he wasn’t going to be show material here in the US, I didn’t even bother registering him with the AKC. It means nothing except that we know who his parents are. Which, naturally, we already know.

But, you know what? There are always situations that suck. Yours is one, but not the only one…lots of fantastic dogs go through rescues and are ineligible for conformation titles. I have a friend who has an awesome dog with a fabulous pedigree…but 1/2" too tall. That sucks too. She competes him in agility, but she would have loved that Ch. title also. Oh well.

I am glad the AKC offers the ILP numbers; maybe Canada does something similar?

#69

[QUOTE=wendy;5864596]
If you don’t want to support puppy mills, don’t buy puppy mill dogs. If you want to support healthy, functional dogs don’t buy dogs from conformation-only breeders- if the line has a lot of conformation titles and not too many performance titles stay far away. If it’s a real working breed you might want to stay away from ANY line that has ANY conformation titles- sadly, the majority of real working breed lines are split into non-functional beauty dogs and functional working dogs, and the working dogs, the ones that really represent the breed as it is meant to be, would never win in the conformation ring. In some breeds, such as the English setter, the beauty lines and the working lines don’t even look remotely like the same breed anymore.[/QUOTE]

Agreed. Breeders and owners are a big part of the equation. I’m not sure how the AKC shoulders the blame for the split in breeding lines – can’t we also blame the parent club, the breeders and the owners as well?

#70

[QUOTE=S1969;5863166]
Usually, though, when you hear of people calling dog shows “beauty pageants”, they have a mutt with a great temperment, and for some reason begrudge purebred dogs for being purebred (great temperment or not).[/QUOTE]

On the contrary, I own old pure breeds of working dogs. Unfortunately Kennel clubs are gradually destroying the qualities of one, and the breeders of the other will not allow that to happen by fighting inclusion in the world of beauty pageants.

Some reading; http://www.amazon.com/Dog-Wars-Border-Battled-American/dp/0979469007

#71

There are today other agility only associations in many places, where any dog, papered or not can compete.
You can show with them.
Sadly, the only game in town for hundreds of miles around here is AKC.
You need AKC registration or ILP number to compete, although you don’t to come to classes and train and that, honestly, is where most of the fun is.:wink:

Some of our dog club members that want to also compete in the other agility associations have to go far away to do so and they have done so and done well.
Guess that if you are so into competing, you find a way.:yes:

#72

[QUOTE=wendy;5862222]
you mean like when the AKC tried to form a partnership with one of the big puppy mills (Hunte) to promote the breeding and purchase of AKC-registered puppies through Hunte’s main outlet, Petland?

The AKC has repeatedly demonstrated that their cash flow is of far greater importance to them than the welfare of dogs.

Being accepted into AKC has been the kiss of death for so many working breeds that one can only conclude that there is something seriously wrong with AKC’s policies.

You can go around saying “well, they are just a registry”, but consider that other registries of animals, such as for warmblood horses, insist upon strict quality control measures for registration.[/QUOTE]

Why do you think Hunte Corporation is bad? Have you seen their facilities? They have immaculate kennels, in house vets and plenty of staff to socialize the puppies. They are not the PM with wire cages and dogs sitting in feces etc. Too many people throw out the “puppy mill” term with no idea what they are saying…

Hunte Corp. DOES breed many dogs, but if you knew your dog history, back in the 30’s and on, the majority of breeders had huge (100 plus) dogs in their kennels! Complete with staffs… Do I agree with the large breeding operations, not really, but I cannot condemn then either. There is no way that breeders like me can meet the demand for pure bred puppies, nor do I want to even try. But to condemn Hunte Corp is just plain wrong.

AKC is an organization, they do NOT ruin a breed, it is the breeders who pick what they want to breed. I can tell you in my breed (dachshunds), performance is very important and there are many dual titled dogs!

The AKC Breeder of Merit program requires breeders to do health testing on their dogs(the health tests are determined by the parent club). But we should not be forced to do health testing, rather as responsible breeders, we should be doing it anyway… Additionally, many health problems that are in existence do not have any tests yet. All we can do is test where tests are available and research pedigrees when planning a breeding…

I just attended the AKC/CHF Parent Club Health Conference in St Louis as the Chairman of the Dachshund Club of American Health Committee. We had 2 days of presentations by the top researchers in the field of canine health! This conference is held every 2 years for breed clubs to learn what is happening in the field of canine health! AKC not only sponsors this, they also fund many research grants!

Sorry I cannot address all the good that AKC does, but to accuse AKC of destroying a breed is just pure ignorance… AKC sponsors many performance events from Lure Coursing, to field trials, to Herding Trials, and Earthdog to name a few. It is up to the owners of the enter their dogs! Not only do my dogs achieve their bench championships, they also participate in Earthdog, rally and nosework (not AKC yet).

Health testing? Yup, I do that too…

" A good dog has a title at both ends!!!"

#73

You can with the AKC get a listing number for a purebred. Not for breeding but for competing in performance sports. They also now will give out numbers to “All American Dogs” to compete in obedience, rally, agility, etc. Also you can check into other registries such as CDSP (St. Hubert’s) for getting a competition number. I’m sorry you’re in Canada and that kennel club gives you no options. You might want to point out to them all the money they are missing on people getting numbers to compete and fees they charge the clubs for each entry to see if they’ll change that. :lol:

#74

You are so right. My dogs are registered with the AKC, CDSP, AWTA (American Working Terrier Association), CPE (agility), NADAC (agility), USDAA (agility). I compete in all. I’m not sure if any of them sponsor any type of grants or research other than AKC, but most are in place for a different reason. As far as the AKC, it’s not a “not for profit” company. I thought the original poster was trying to get some true information, maybe it was just to start a rant, kind of like Parelli. :lol:

#75

[QUOTE=Pcostx;5863827]
The AKC doesn’t ‘crackdown’ on puppy mills, they are in bed with them! If the AKC didn’t have the income from litter registrations from commercial breeders, their income would be slashed (probably cut by 50%).

The AKC, working hand in hand with the puppy mill industry, spends hundreds of thousands of dollars to FIGHT anti-puppy mill legislation. They have a special team of attorneys and lobbyist’s who do nothing but keep track of proposed legislation in every state, then try to defeat it.

The AKC sends reps to all of the seminars for, and meetings of commercial breeders (puppy mills) to promote their registry.

The AKC takes out full page, full color ads in every months issue of all the Commercial Breeders magazines.

Years ago the AKC used to be FOR THE DOG, and they actually cared about the welfare of the purebred dog, now they are FOR THE $$$. All they care about now is numbers; how many dogs can they register and how much money can they make.

Have you looked at their income statement? The AKC is worth multi-millions.

IF (and that’s a big if) they cracked down on ANY puppy mills, maybe they made a show of closing a few of the most filthy, non-compliant ones. But the AKC doesn’t care if you have 700+ dogs and breed crap to crap, as long as you pass their cheesy kennel inspection and they get the income from your hundreds of puppy litter registrations.[/QUOTE]

Geesh, where you get your information? PETA? AKC registered dogs only make up 1% of all the dogs in the US… You are giving AKC a lot more power than they deserve…
What is a Puppy Mill? According to the Animal Rights nuts, to include HSUS, ALL breeders are Puppy mills! AKC does inspect large kennels and DOES report bad conditions to the local authorities…

Of course AKC is about money, so are dog rescues…:eek::eek:

#76

You CAN earn performance titles under AKC. You can get a PAL number (used to be ILP), since your dog is a dobe, but even a mixed breed dog can register now with AKC to enter any obedience/rally event. They are registered as “All American” dogs. I have competed against them! and they are welcomed by the performance community!!! Check the AKC website and you can find out how to register your dog.:wink: I can honestly tell you that, as a breeder, I was against allowing “all American” dogs to compete at first, but now having seen them and their owners, who work as hard as thew rest of us, I am thrilled to see them in the competition ring!! :slight_smile:

#77

[QUOTE=Arizona DQ;5864994]
You CAN earn performance titles under AKC. You can get a PAL number (used to be ILP), since your dog is a dobe, but even a mixed breed dog can register now with AKC to enter any obedience/rally event. They are registered as “All American” dogs. I have competed against them! and they are welcomed by the performance community!!! Check the AKC website and you can find out how to register your dog.:wink: I can honestly tell you that, as a breeder, I was against allowing “all American” dogs to compete at first, but now having seen them and their owners, who work as hard as thew rest of us, I am thrilled to see them in the competition ring!! :)[/QUOTE]

Again, I am in Canada. But…the dog is from the US…could I get him a PAL and compete over there even if he is now a Canadian Citizen?? Or do I have to be a US citizen?

It isn’t the end of the world but at least the AKC has the right idea…perhaps I should call the CKC…

#78

[QUOTE=Arizona DQ;5864921]
This conference is held every 2 years for breed clubs to learn what is happening in the field of canine health! AKC not only sponsors this, they also fund many research grants![/QUOTE]

yep, they fund research and give grants in lots of areas that every dog owner will benefit from.

They have funded research in oncology, immunology, reproduction, endocrinology, renal and other fields.

They have donated funds to Tufts, U of Wisconsin, Texas A&M, Cornell and U of PA.

take a look here: http://www.akcchf.org/research/funded-research/

They keep a thumb on news pertinent to dog owners like this:
http://www.akc.org/news/index.cfm?article_id=4477

and they donate scholarships to Veterinary Students. For the 2011-2012 year they donated $16,000.

#79

[QUOTE=Equibrit;5864104]
Walmart is about volume not quality.[/QUOTE]

You haven’t been to a Walmart lately. Their quality is vastly improved. I loffs my Walmart.

#80

[QUOTE=wendy;5864596]
They’ve never promoted themselves as being an organization working for the well-being of dogs. [/QUOTE]

Actually yes, the AKC did many, many moons ago, state that the well being of dogs was part of their culture.

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