[QUOTE=vineyridge;8939018]
If there is a legitimate medical use for regumate on a gelding (or even a mare other than to stop cycling for performance purposes), I’d like to know what it is and how common it is?[/QUOTE]
Maybe Clear Water is transitioning and if so, deserves his privacy at this time.
[QUOTE=vineyridge;8939179]
Depo-provera and altrenogest (regumate) both act to chemically castrate a male, per the scientific literature. Clear Water is a stallion. If the male is already castrated, why would you need either one? It is birth control for a female. Why would either be used on a male competition horse for what medical reason other than behavior change?
I think it’s interesting that all three American event riders were using hormones that affect sexual characteristics and that have strong behavior modification effects.
They are also the only event riders on the administrative sanctions list, and they were all using the same class of drug. In fact, they are the only event riders on any of the FEI lists.
Could American h/j drug culture be oozing its way into professional eventing?[/QUOTE]
But isn’t it interesting that ML is the only one on the list administering a female hormone to a stallion or gelding? As usual, there’s always something with her.
http://csu-cvmbs.colostate.edu/vth/Documents/pharmacy-altrenogest.pdf
Correction after I posted - Will Coleman’s Gideon is a gelding.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I seem to remember hearing that it’s relatively common to give geldings Depo for a calming effect in the hunter/jumper scene. Maybe that’s where ML learned it …
depo is used on mares and geldings with equal frequency in my area. HJ, SJ and event scene.
the idea is that it takes the edge off both genders. i’ve never had a need to use it on any of my horses.
i have seen it used in event horses at several big barns, between competitions. IIRC it has a relatively low ‘half life’.
[QUOTE=JER;8939534]
Maybe Clear Water is transitioning and if so, deserves his privacy at this time.[/QUOTE]
JER, just spewed tea all over my keyboard. Thanks for a good laugh!
Sorry for the length, catching up on a lot.
TLDR; OP, keep up the good work, Tex, guilt sucks, learn from it, Paint, respectfully, take a look at the log in your own eye first.
This sub-thread I found fascinating for it reflects the weakness in forum discussions, yet how it impacts the people behind the ID.
txhorsetrainer specifically referenced Jeloushe’s comment so it is clear she (i’m going female by default, sue me) was effected by J’s words. Yet, reading those words, that specific quote I saw no reference to any specific person AND her comment was phrased as anecdote, not a specific incident. Tex for some reason feels it is about her and needs to “defend” her actions, which were never raised by anyone.
Rule #1 - Don’t assume and for god’s sake read.
I’m grateful Tex felt guilty and bared her soul for the next thing that crawls out from the depths is the standard “Who are you to question us” type of comment
Paint later attempts to justify this level of haughtiness, yes that is exactly how that comes across, by making a point that anyone can post anything in the internet so how can we trust they are not trying to just cause trouble.
Well then, what have you done Paint? Please tell us your credentials for clearly you know more that me, Jeloushe, or Brat or…well on second thought, don’t because how could we believe you.
The idea that some stranger would wander onto a horse forum about a boutique sport in an attempt to “stir the pot”, just because, is stretching the bounds of reasoned thought. First, since you don’t know the level of experience of anyone on this thread, the better approach is to use your brain and read (rule #1), try to see where they are coming from and why, and if it is not clear, ask “What are you trying to say”, not “what makes you qualified to speak?”.
For example, I have now watched ML riding efforts for most of the years she’s been involved in Eventing. Admittedly, what is shown on video, still, I see a pattern. Now Paint, full disclosure, I’ve been riding only 8 years total. I’m 56 so do the math when I started. I’ve ridden two horses in competition, only now looking at Training so “How dare I question a 4* Rider on her style, you do not know what it takes”
Bullocks.
I’ve been trained by one of the best trainers in my region, I’ve worked with Denny Emerson, Kim Walnes, Robin Herst. I’ve studied Mr. Jung, Mr. Pitt, Ms Holder and a couple more so when I say ML rides like crap, I feel reasonable good in my assessment. It helps that she’s caused blood in the mouth of her horses, taken twice horses on course that were not fit and have fallen, and has made a bad mark on this sport. If I see another rider with the same style, I feel good I can put my opinion across with reasonable confidence.
Paint, you attitude is part of the problem of this sport and believe me, I’d be more than happy to have you play in the big girl arenas with all the other big players. Alas, I’m stuck with you coming into my sandbox with an attitude of “I’m better than you”.
No, no you are not. You may be a better rider because you jump bigger things or “train” horses, but you are not better nor do you deserve special treatment nor does you experience compared to mine protect you from criticism. I have a mind and I use it.
Rule #2 - Don’t ever look down on anyone.
The horse that Tex rode, the one that had amatuers tossed (and her) quite possibly had more issues than “Hey, I didn’t finish cross country, win for me”. Like it knows. Between the time Tex got tossed, got sorted out and threw her leg back over it, that horse had so moved on from that moment that running it 10 times over the same jump, many many minutes later did not teach it a thing about what happened. That was a trainer, bothered that a horse tossed her, and basically needed to dominate an animal that didn’t need dominating, it needed understanding.
OP, never step back once you speak up. Your voice, like everyone else’s here is valued and valuable. I’ve been bitch-slapped by the best here, but I learn, I adapt, but I will keep adding my voice till and when I am ready to go ride off into the sunset.
To the OP: I appreciate your openness in starting this thread. I have students who admire their favorite “celebrity” riders and dream of being able to go ride in their barns. Sometimes I have to be honest and say to them “you should appreciate their riding skill, but beware of their behavior.” It can’t be just coincidence when you see the same names listed for yellow cards time after time. Transparency and consistent enforcement of the rules should be universal. The fact that it is a topic of debate is disheartening.
[QUOTE=vineyridge;8939179]
Depo-provera and altrenogest (regumate) both act to chemically castrate a male, per the scientific literature. Clear Water is a stallion. If the male is already castrated, why would you need either one? It is birth control for a female. Why would either be used on a male competition horse for what medical reason other than behavior change?
I think it’s interesting that all three American event riders were using hormones that affect sexual characteristics and that have strong behavior modification effects.
They are also the only event riders on the administrative sanctions list, and they were all using the same class of drug. In fact, they are the only event riders on any of the FEI lists.
Could American h/j drug culture be oozing its way into professional eventing?[/QUOTE]
Yes, it is. I know of two eventing BNR’s who started going to jumper shows on a more regular basis and “learned a lot!”
They weren’t talking about jumping.
Looking back at Paintbrlrcr’s previous posts it seems very likely that she/he is a client of Ellens. Not trying to imply anything, but it does explain the need to defend her and question other’s qualifications to comment.
“Tex” was responding to the OP, which wasn’t general or anecdotal. It was a very specific accusation of a rider who took me all of 2 minutes to identify. Her version of events is different. I don’t see how it’s “guilt” motivating her response.
While I appreciate the spirit and emotion behind the OP’s posts, I don’t see how writing blind items on an internet forum regarding events you weren’t even a witness to is going to help with the issue.
I do appreciate the attention that’s being brought to the drugging issue, however depressing it may be.
Like everything posted in the original thread it was thinly enough veiled that anyone with Google and twenty minutes of free time could have figured it out (and since it was quoted, will be able to figure it out). And it was pretty clearly the absolute most negative way the story could have been told. Was it 100% true? Was the story the rider told true? MOre likely it was somewhere in the middle. But only one person will be affected by it long term, and it won’t be the anonymous OP.
I think anyone who has spent enough time at events, particularly in BNR-heavy Areas like 2 and 3, can tell some nasty story about almost any pro rider. Doesn’t mean they are all abusers who need to be suspended by the FEI/burned at the stake.
The ones that show a clear pattern of behavior or have recorded infractions are worthy of concern and exemplify “the enemy of eventing.”
In fact, the more I think about this, I’d say that the hearsay blind items that get posted on here and whispered in barn aisles only add to the issue of people not actually being held accountable. The more you gossip and fuel the rumor mill instead of recording, reporting and holding officials accountable, the more you encourage this to continue.
Thank you JP60!!!
I always find it amusing when posters assume you are a nobody who knows nothing because we don’t ride 4*.
Regarding depo - that’s a very dangerous drug to be playing with. My vet who used to give it to me for my chryptorchid gelding told me that it was the only time he would ever approve the use and that the side effects were very strong, harsh, and long lasting. For reference, my sister starting using Depo and 6 months later developed diabetes and read countless stories of others who had similar things happen. She feels it caused the change in her body but we will never know for certain.
These riders seem to want every edge except for actually training their horses better.
We know that one of ML’s vets in the past was a well known “Dr. Feelgood” in Florida and has been sanctioned by that State’s Vet Board.
Drugs that are not prescribed for an actual, defined medical condition in a horse but are used to “take off the edge”, calm, or reduce aggression seem to me the classic definition of “drugging” whether it is in or out of competition.
I personally don’t like the idea of having “administrative sanctions” for one class of drug offense but not the other. The FEI got that from USEF.
There are a lot of people whom I have gotten to know via this forum whose thoughtful posts I greatly respect. You all know who you are ;). There are also some new folks with ideas whom I read and think “well thought out and expressed: let me consider their point of view”. Brat, you are one of those.
I’m reading the “defenders” for lack of a better term, and while I understand their position, I respectfully add that they are missing the point. OP was in a difficult position. If Brat made the comments too general, they would be blown up as lacking proof. If too specific, they’d be blown up for starting a witch hunt. I think Brat tried to walk the middle line and was quite successful in making the point.
BECAUSE part of the point is that in this day and age, whatever you do becomes public quite rapidly in the interwebz and it has just been resoundingly demonstrated the appearance of fact is close enough for government work. The perception of our sport is harmed by actions that may have a reasonable purpose/ defense, but can be abstracted such that even educated horsemen can and do consider them “over the line”, not to mention others who might not have as much experience. And I personally find it sad and repugnant. Those who are the role models and teachers of others should be like Caesar’s wife IMHO, or at least try to be.
Last evening I had the pleasure of chatting with an extremely knowledgeable person with decades of involvement in eventing in the “back of the house”, so to speak, at the level of international competitions. I will not say anything more specific because I don’t have permission to identify him/her. But they flat out said that things have changed drastically over the years, and that their heart aches for many of the upper level horses because of the drive to succeed at whatever the cost. The good news is that it was also noted that there are still FEI level riders who truly have a good partnership with their horses and put them first. The problem is that the percentage is shrinking.
Finally Brat, thanks for officiating for 40 years!
[QUOTE=lucegoose;8940052]
“Tex” was responding to the OP, which wasn’t general or anecdotal. It was a very specific accusation of a rider who took me all of 2 minutes to identify. Her version of events is different. I don’t see how it’s “guilt” motivating her response.
While I appreciate the spirit and emotion behind the OP’s posts, I don’t see how writing blind items on an internet forum regarding events you weren’t even a witness to is going to help with the issue.
I do appreciate the attention that’s being brought to the drugging issue, however depressing it may be.[/QUOTE]
Perhaps we all need a lesson in pronouns and their usage then. Tex, in a post directed at Jel said “you”. It is not hard to see that as text commenting to Jel. Perhaps the better statement was ‘Brat was talking about me’. You (meaning lucegoose) do something similar as highlighted above. Who is ‘you’ referring too? Me, the general public?
This is why we all get emotional at times before asking for clarification. We’re not perfect, I’ve done it in the past, but being very clear who is the subject can go along ways in keeping things calmer.
You know, I read that OP statement and figured knowing who didn’t matter. That was not the point. Still, I can agree, dedicated people like yourself, Lg, may make the attempt, but then what?
On topic, there is too much relativeness in this sport to quickly point fingers, but…when there is public repetition of bad behavior or obviously blatant abuse then I feel it is okay to call it out. We cannot reward such behavior with silence.
Since she opened the door, I cannot judge Tex’s actions other than in the context of my own experience. In that regard I’d not have taken a horse back to warm up to jump an oxer 10 times for I would realize that I am punishing a horse for an action it does not remember doing. I do not need to be a 4* rider or trainer to know that if I do not punish or reward within a few seconds of the action, the horse will not connect the two. Certainly a long ride back to a jumping area and five hard minutes of jumping only says the horse was willing to jump an oxer 10 times (that is one jump every 30 seconds given that facts presented). In that regard, such a good pony he was.
I can only speculate that Tex was trying to respond to the OP’s post via quoting Jeloushe as the original post was deleted. My guess is that Tex doesn’t know the ins and outs of posting here and didn’t realize that quotes within quotes don’t carry over. At least, that’s what I assumed. It was pretty clear that Tex was addressing the original accusation about what went down at Holly Hill. Why we need to parse this out, I’m not sure.
And to clarify, I meant a general “you”, and think that was pretty clear within the context. Maybe not. Again, not sure that this is worth continuing to discuss.
You know, I read that OP statement and figured knowing who didn’t matter. That was not the point. Still, I can agree, dedicated people like yourself, Lg, may make the attempt, but then what?
Personally, the who matters very much to me when an UL rider is accused of abuse/behaving poorly. This is someone I might run into at competitions, ride with in clinics, train with, or purchase a horse from. It might even be someone I know!! And as I said before, it required little to no dedication to figure out who was being accused.
On topic, there is too much relativeness in this sport to quickly point fingers, but…when there is public repetition of bad behavior or obviously blatant abuse then I feel it is okay to call it out. We cannot reward such behavior with silence.
I agree completely, but the “calling out” in this particular circumstance was an accusation made by an anonymous poster who wasn’t even a witness to the incident, and as someone earlier stated, it has a far more negative impact on the rider than it does on the OP, and I’m not sure I feel comfortable judging Ellen based on the information presented.
As I already stated, pretty much every pro has had one of those bad days at the office. It’s the ones who seem to always be having a bad day that I’m concerned about.
I agree in a lot of ways, but again, my issue is that Brat wasn’t present for at least one of the incidents cited. The stuff like drugging that is clearly documented through FEI is one thing, and if there’s something that is clearly shady/abusive and is written about by an actual witness or there’s some other documented proof (pictures, videos, etc)…otherwise it’s just gossip, and it doesn’t help make us/the sport better.
This thread is turning into exactly what the OPs point was. Nothing will change because we can’t ever call out people for their actions without being “meanies”.
Just once I would love to see someone say “yeah I did that to my horse, it was a mistake and I am ashamed and won’t be doing it again”.
Instead it’s always…that never happened, you weren’t there, excuse excuse excuse.
[QUOTE=Jealoushe;8938506]
This is exactly what the OP is talking about.
Us Smurfs can’t say d*ck because we didn’t run around Rolex 
[/QUOTE]
I logged in just to like this post.
How is the “level” question remotely relative to the situation?
I think we have all seen ULR’s that we would say have zero horsemanship skills, and/or knowledge vs LLR’s who have outstanding horsemanship skills and knowledge, and vice versa.
The attitude displayed by that question - what level? is precisely one of the issues in our sport.
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