Experiences with Summit Joint Performance?

[OneDayMore]

Has anyone tried Summit Joint Performance? My 18 year old retired gelding had a vet visit yesterday, as he’s been stiffer than usual and was reluctant to stand up on a few cold mornings. His vet recommended Summit Joint Performance, so we started him on it yesterday.

After the appointment, I did some googling on Summit Joint Performance and was a little sketched out when I saw that it appears to be an MLM. I trust my vet, he’s an excellent vet and has never steered us wrong before, but I’m interested to hear if anyone has used it and if they saw any results.

I tried searching for old COTH threads on it, but haven’t been able to get them to open, so I apologize if this has already been discussed.

[Simkie]

We had a GREAT thread about it, let me see if I can turn it up… I’ll edit here once I find it

The tl; dr is stay faaaar away, though. It’s an illegal drug, being marketed as a supplement. There’s no FDA oversight and the manufacturing practices are … questionable! At best. Stick to Adequan or Legend or Pentosan for injectible joint therapies

Alright, until search comes back here, this cached page from the wayback machine will get you started. This thread got quite a bit longer, with more great info, but I just can’t get to it right now. Soon!

https://web.archive.org/web/20180321074034if_/https://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/forum/discussion-forums/horse-care/10046789-summit-im-joint-supplement/

[Ghazzu]

I concur w/Simkie. No way would I use the stuff.

[JB]

Who knows the quality or purity of the Chondroitin 4 Sulfate that’s (allegedly) in it? Is it sterile? You hope so.

[OneDayMore]

Oh boy, not what I was hoping to hear. Looks like we will have to try something else. Thank you for the replies!

[bugsynskeeter1]

Their latest claim is that is it GRAS and doesn’t require FDA approval. However, a quick search of FDA’s website will show you that GRAS applies ONLY to feed through additives and does not cover injectables. When I have questioned Reps about this, they either block me or ghost me.

[Badger]

This post raises a lot of issues worth considering:

Kathryn Papp

[OneDayMore]

Hmm, reps not wanting to answer questions is definitely not a good sign.

[OneDayMore]

Yikes, that post raises some frightening possibilities. I’m glad I posted here, I’ll ask my vet if we can try Adequan or Legend instead.

[JB]

@bugsynskeeter1

Their latest claim is that is it GRAS and doesn’t require FDA approval. However, a quick search of FDA’s website will show you that GRAS applies ONLY to feed through additives and does not cover injectables. When I have questioned Reps about this, they either block me or ghost me.

They’re leaning on the fact that C4S as an oral supplement is GRAS. And yes you’re right, that’s supplement stuff, not injectable stuff. The very fact that a VET had a hand in creating this and the literature, ignoring and violating critical rules, should terrify everyone

@OneDayMore

Hmm, reps not wanting to answer questions is definitely not a good sign.

Reps don’t know squat, only what the company tells them, and even then the majority of them can only regurgitate, half the time not even getting it right

[SolarFlare]

@JB

Reps don’t know squat, only what the company tells them, and even then the majority of them can only regurgitate, half the time not even getting it right

I also find it concerning that if the vet recommended this and the horse was started on it…then the vet is the “sales rep” in an MLM? Or possibly worse, that the vet’s getting it from some random “sales rep”? Or did the vet refer this client to some random “sales rep” for an MLM? Totally sketchy all around.

[JB]

@SolarFlare

I also find it concerning that if the vet recommended this and the horse was started on it…then the vet is the “sales rep” in an MLM? Or possibly worse, that the vet’s getting it from some random “sales rep”? Or did the vet refer this client to some random “sales rep” for an MLM? Totally sketchy all around.

I don’t mind a properly run MLM model. It’s just a business model.

But everything here falls apart at the product level.

It doesn’t matter if it’s Jane Doe distributor you’re buying from, or a vet distributor (though not sure about a legal conflict of interest here) or the sales rep in a “normal” business model who knows nothing more about the product than the random “feed rep” you get on the phone when you call Purina. It’s still an illegal product.

[bugsynskeeter1]

But if you look up the GRAS paperwork for Chondroitin, it is for E. coli derived. Not bovine trachea.

[JB]

@bugsynskeeter1

But if you look up the GRAS paperwork for Chondroitin, it is for E. coli derived. Not bovine trachea.

And since there is NO insight into the source, quality, safety, purity of the chondroitin in this product…

That said, bovine-sourced does exist in a product called Chondrosulf® which has been studied for efficacy and safety.

[SolarFlare]

@JB

I don’t mind a properly run MLM model. It’s just a business model.

But everything here falls apart at the product level.

It doesn’t matter if it’s Jane Doe distributor you’re buying from, or a vet distributor (though not sure about a legal conflict of interest here) or the sales rep in a “normal” business model who knows nothing more about the product than the random “feed rep” you get on the phone when you call Purina. It’s still an illegal product.

Oh absolutely the illegal product is a giant problem. However, I trust that my vet is ordering (legal and proven) product through a reputable source, not Joe Schmoe down the road who has decided to rep some random bottle of untested substance, where there is zero recourse should something go badly. I don’t want my horse acting as a guinea pig unless I’m fully aware and agree.

I do though have issues with MLM models and don’t support them personally. They tend to make money only for those at the top and use questionable practices while suckering in those lower on the pyramid. There’s a great podcast called “The Dream” if it’s of interest to you

[JB]

You’d HOPE that your vet is recommending at least a legal product, whether it’s an unproven supplement with good anecdotal evidence, or a proven approved drug.

MLMs aren’t pyramid schemes (which are illegal, and do promote wealth at the top and it’s nearly impossible to make money down the line).

I have many friends making a quality living in their chosen MLM, having come into their company many many years after it started, so definitely not even close to the top, all of them equaling or surpassing their sponsor/upline. Not all MLMs are created equal, there are lots of different compensation plans.

[Simkie]

@JB

You’d HOPE that your vet is recommending at least a legal product, whether it’s an unproven supplement with good anecdotal evidence, or a proven approved drug.

I do think a lot of vets don’t really look into it very much. They know what chondroitin is, they make some assumptions on the legitimacy, and don’t think much further about it.

Really, that it’s still out there on the market is just so seriously crazy. Can’t wait to see the FDA finally shut that shit down.

[Ghazzu]

I’m not so sure I buy that explanation, given that AFAIK, Summit isn’t carried by any legitimate veterinary supply distributor.
And one of the responsibilities of professional licensure is to do your damned homework where administration of foreign substances is concerned.

[Simkie]

@Ghazzu

And one of the responsibilities of professional licensure is to do your damned homework where administration of foreign substances is concerned.

Unfortunately, it’s pretty clear that not every vet out there is up to that level of care and diligence

[Simkie]

Search is back, wooooo!

And here is the thread

Summit IM joint "supplement"

This seems to be a newer (?) product for joint support on the market. It’s non prescription, apparently low molecular weight pure chondroitin that was initially developed for corneal surgeries. I searched the forums but haven’t found any posts on this product. At $30/month after the loading dose it could be a better option than feed through supplements. Some associated vets and reps are saying that it’s been effective in adequan refractory cases. Any personal experience or thoughts? I’m skept…