Isn’t this horses and more specifically race horses? :lol:
I know most of the time, pedigree does come through on the horse’s form but every once in a while, that sleeper creeps in (CC, Mind Your Biscuits) where the horse outperforms their pedigree. To me, some of what keeps racing interesting…
That is an interesting topic for research Gumtree.
Did you include the “private sale” horses in your study?
I saw two recent sales RNAs who had both been given fitting names.
The filly by Congrats was named Plan B, and the one by Fed Biz is now Fed Up. :lol:
that is awesome. I am guessing that the majority of sales RNA’s tend to have ugly vetting reports ( I don’t have much history with sales scene). I have heard of some sport people going to the lesser known sales and buying up RNA’s for sport at cheap money with decent pedigrees. Turned them out, let them grew up and they turned out pretty decent.
I don’t have the time to do it but would love to pick up a youngster at some point.
Has anyone checked out La Verdad’s Medaglia D’oro filly in the sale? She’s a nice one, big big and biggggg!
These are great! Someone told me once that the former Lane’s End stallion Came Home got his name because he was a two time RNA at the sales. How fitting!
Good luck to everyone buying and selling at F-T Saratoga! I’ll be watching the live feed and living vicariously 
3 time loser to be exact. $650,000 RNA weanling, $300,000 RNA yearling, $145,000 RNA 2 year old in training. The breeders John Toffan & Trudy McCaffery mainly raced and have very deep pockets. So it’s not much of “hit” compared to us mortals. Race breeders can be difficult to buy from. Probably why the breeders of record hasn’t been listed in the sales catalogs for a long time now. The list of breeders was standard in the front of sales catalogs for decades.
I was part of an inspection team when he was offered as a yearling. He was on my barn list at Lanes End, I short listed him. If my catalogs from that time weren’t packed I would share my notes. But Gone West rarely had a “bad” looking yearling. He stamped them. I think we valued him around $250,000 for some reason. Which was on the low side for Gone West’s at the time.
I and most people in the business at that time thought, hoped he would take over where Gone West leaves off. I couldn’t get to him at the farm. Paid big money for my pocket for a beautiful mare light in pedigree in foal to him. Got a pretty nice filly, bit of a head case. Hoped to “get out” of the mare on the foal she was carrying. Didn’t happened. The bloom was off the rose when she sold. I think he was sold to Turkey? The mare turned out to be a bit of a bust for me. Maybe broke even at the end of the day. Was a real PITA to get in foal.
Lol, funny I tried to name a horse Plan B for pretty much the same reason a while ago. Not surprisingly “unavailable”. Their timing was right, because I bet it gets taken when ever it is, lol.
Love Fed Up hope the horse turns around for them.
So, TOBA has a pedigree and conformation clinic on Mon/Tue. I live pretty dang far away (Iowa)…but considered going. Anyone been to these TOBA clinics before? I’m a newly minted barn owner but long time rider (jumpers, foxhunting), and with lots of connections around here I thought I might give a few young racing horses a shot next year. Pretty sure I wouldn’t buy anything at the Saratoga sale, but…is the clinic a super valuable experience or more of a local interest kind of thing? Anyone have ideas?
Horses with truly ugly vet reports seldom show up at sales. There’s no point in taking them.
Horses RNA for many different reasons, but the bottom line is that owner values the horse more highly than the buyers do. It’s just as easy for a horse to be bought back for 500K as it is for 10K.
She is lovely!
I don’t know that a bad vet report would necessarily be the cause of an RNA. Some folks would just rather keep and put their yearlings in training, if they don’t make their reserve.
The Saratoga sale isn’t really the sale to pick up “bargains” but Keeneland September is huge and it seems more likely for bargains to be found there.
“Isn’t this horses and more specifically race horses?”
lol, yes and no but on face value yes.
The way I “play” it and the way I tried to explain it to clients. IMO it is basically a matter of the “odds” based on the pedigree and physical. All things being equal, I would set the “morning line” on this horse being worth $20,000, $200,000 at the end of the day at 20-1. Would you bet that on a 20-1 shot? If so then you might be better off going to the track and putting the bet down on a horse that is getting in the gate. You will know if you were right or wrong in little over a minute. Save a ton of money in carrying expenses to find out.
As to Mind Your Biscuits there are plenty of horses that either out sell or out run their pedigree. As I am sure you know, most know, except for a few with deep pockets. They are by far the exception to the rule. Rarely if ever were they bought “by design”.
Posse showed promise when he stood in KY (1st foals 2005) . Moved to NY in 2010 when the bloom was off the rose to take advantage of the new well funded NY state breeding program. Bought as a short yearling for $47,000. By a pretty sharp pin-hooking outfit, at least according to their “press releases”. IMO pretty pricey for the pedigree. They tried to resell as a yearling and as a 2 year old in training. They hate to “loose”. No takers. They didn’t race him, sold at a lose. They guy that bought him sold him after his second start. The people that bought him sold “legs” as he went of the later. More and more partners came on board. It is what dreams are made of, lol.
So true… and as much as buyers, sellers, owners try to make it business there’s gotta be a little bit of “hope” inside everyone that this is the horse they were waiting for
Some get one, some get a few, some never get what they were hoping and wishing for.
I like your odds analogy. At least when you’re betting odds at the track, the horse at least made it to the starting gate which may never happen at those yearling or two-year-old prospect sales.
I don’t remember when “private sale” came into play. Somewhere around that time period. Made sense from both the seller and the sale’s company point of view. A lot of RNA’s get sold after the fact. For those of us in “know” there are plenty of horses that go through the rings listed as sold but didn’t. If you really like a horse that is listed as sold it is always worth going back to the consignor to make sure it did sell. Those of us who have been doing this for a while know how to extrapolate the results sheet and or what we see on the bid board as sold.
Buying a horse “privately” involving the sales company, with their “blessings” Gives the seller the same guarantee of payment as if it was sold in the ring. But you have to wait for your money. Which is fine on an expensive horse. Inexpensive horses, $5,000 $20,000 etc. I rather not wait 30-60 days for my money. If the person can’t write a check before putting the horse on the van from the sales grounds. Tells me they don’t have a credit with the sales company. Come to the farm with cash or a certified check, money order.
I assume the sales company feels the same. RNAs are not added to the important bottom line on the sales results, the gross. Though Keeneland got a lot of “stick” because they used to do this for many years. Where as the “number 2” sales company Fasig Tipton never did this. Total BS. Full disclosure as pointed out by others, I, more so my family was closely “associated” with the sales company for a very long time. Keeneland’s director of sales was hand picked “off the boat” from Ireland, hired, mentored by my father. I gave Geoffrey jocular sh*t for jumping ship, changing jackets from Blue to Green. But he is the first to say if it wasn’t for… I told him my father would have been proud. He turned down the same position in the 70s. Many have said to me over the years since my father’s untimely death in 95. Ironically the the same year and not many months after that one of my rock n roll hero’s Jerry Garcia died. My father was NOT a fan of the Grateful Dead. I was banned from going to Saratoga doing my heavy duty Dead Head years, lol.
I digress. There are 2 important numbers on the final result sheet, Besides the gross, The average being the most important to the sales company. The second is the “clearance rate” the number of RNAs. A “cheap horse” drags down the Average. Esp in a small “boutique” select sale like Saratoga, or Book One, formally know as Keeneland July. FAR better from the sales company point of view and “marketing” for a horse that didn’t make the sales companies expectation to sell at the “expected-planned” average to hammer down as an RNA. Then to sell well below the the previous year’s average. I can still hear my father saying under his breath in the Saratoga Exec offiice during the sale to the Auctioneer; " For forks sake, hammer the damn horse down, (enter the auctioneers name). In other words RNA the SOB instead of selling him “cheap” and dragging down the average. Further explanation should be included with this should be included with this. But it would be rather lengthy and I don’t have the time. Nor am I being paid to give it, lol. Hire me as your adviser and I would be happy to explain.
Sorry, rather long answer to a short question. But unlike some others on this forum regardless of the “thread”. “Things” are not as cut and dry, “simple” as they appear on face value.
I handle a “private sale” the same as an RNA.
You old Dead Head! I am tickled pink to know you were banned from Saratoga back in the day, by your father.:lol:Was it the hair, the tie dye, the music, or all three? 
Glad you reconciled.
I can’t say specifically if those clinics would be worthwhile for people who aren’t absolute beginners as far as conformation is concerned.
I did watch a live streamed yearling race horse conformation clinic several years ago and it was pretty basic.
There are several on youtube, all pretty basic. Nothing new for most people that have ever been involved with sport horses. There are of course differences in what you want in a race horse, a dressage horse or a jumper.
There may be some tips on telling the difference between sprinter vs stayer types if you aren’t up on that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVs5ZynTREQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vB8t6td7LF0 2yr olds;https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8VBTLtJing
All of the above, lol
I moved west and had nothing to do with horses for a few years. Only time in my life.
This pic is from Boulder Co 76ish. Still have that guitar. Lost the hat and jean jacket. When hitch hiking back from New Mexico. Left it by mistake in the back seat of the car that picked me up. Man I was pissed, love that hat and jacket, Still pissed, lol
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I was a guest speaker at some TOBA seminars a while ago. Talked about ownership, role of a bloodstock agent, selecting horses, etc. It was fun. I always got good marks for public speaking in HS and I am rarely without an opinion on things I know about. I talked about the good-bad and the ugly of the business also. Didn’t dwell on it just thought it was important to have a basic understanding of the big picture. TOBA felt I should leave those things out. I disagreed and declined to do anymore.
I looked up the seminar to see who the guest speakers were. I couldn’t find an information on the TOBA website. Just because the person is good at what they do. Doesn’t always mean they are good at explaining it. No different than coaches/instructors,
If you were not far from the event I would say go. Coming all the way from Iowa that depends on your expectations. But it is in Saratoga so even if it sucked. Saratoga doesn’t, lol.
gumtree :lol: on the photo
I truly love the advice, experience and stories you bring to the table.
I was one of those horse-crazy kids growing up (who knows where it came from). Living in LA, I watched (figuratively) racing mostly at Hollywood Park and Santa Anita. I remember collecting every single news story about Native Diver. I remember making plans to go watch Landaluce race until she died suddenly. I was heartbroken.
Having a chance to read and learn from you and so many others who did far more than just watching from a distance is such a treat
Thanks for the photo Gumtree.
You had great hair. I imagine that your father was not impressed.
Great picture, gumtree! I have a similar one of my husband. :lol:
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