Sketcher
I think its very relevent . You may consider yourself a good home and will fix up whatever horse you get.That is NOT the majority of people looking to “rescue a horse” There are good homes out there but we go through at least 10 or 20 applicants to find that one home. Why would we bother to help a horse if we are just goign to pass it out like Halloween candy. Most seem to fall in a few other categories. They either want a cheap horse that is disposable or for breeding theywant it because it’s pretty or sad not even thinkging that the horse in the picture might be somewhat different than expected. Where do most of those horses passed out like candy to whoever comes along end up? Right back where they were or worse circling the drain starving or abused before finally ending up right back and the feedlot. What the heck is the point of wasting time and resources to just to prolong the inevitable. I dont know of any lifelong ownership 10 page contracts but it is pretty prudent to give a trial period and to make sure whoever owns the horse tommorow or 3 years from now knows the horse has a safety net for it if it looses it’s value or home. Private sales do first refusal all the time it’s no different . Rescues that actually care about the horses want to know the time and money they and the donors (if they are lucky enough ) spent is going to help that horse longer than a week or two . As far as buying a horse from a home beign rescue. The word gets tossed around a lot but if the horse is in a crappy home and someone buys it to uprgrade it’s life its a good thing no less worthy than any other horse being helped They live 20 30 40 years who’s to say if that person didnt come along that horse wouldnt have ended up in a feedlot and who is to say that if a “rescue” didnt buy a horse from auction that someone else might have stepped in to help it. There are all sorts of people and ways to help horses Saving one from the slaughter lot this time is just one day in a long life and one way to help but certainly not the only important work.
[QUOTE=hundredacres;6969514]
^^Well, it’s not all that matters :(. There is so much wrong with AC4H that it’s hard to even list - and there will need to be other investigations by other authorities. The FBI is a start…but I want them to answer for not feeding the horses. For not feedding my horse, and hundred of others, and then they can go from there.[/QUOTE]
Sorry, that’s not how I meant it but re-reading my post I can see how it came across that way. I meant that in my situation, it worked out well.
She did try to steer me towards the broker horses but I definitely stayed away. I still can’t wrap my mind around how that works anyway. And as there was no way I could see any of the broker horses first I couldn’t purchase a horse for my daughter that I couldn’t preview first.
I do agree that after everything I’ve read, I got off lucky. If I had known what I know now, we never would have even gone up there. I definitely believe she should be fully investigated and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law by as many different agencies as necessary. Heck, just her bullying tactics should be reviewed by the local police.
Two points…
For all of those who had decent dealings with AC4H, great! I’m truly glad it worked out for you as well as it did!
But saying that is all that is important is that you recieved a horse you like is, IMHO, similar to saying “But the dog I got from a puppy mill was FINE, that’s what matters, they find homes for puppies! All that other stuff doesn’t really matter!”
For every horse they have found a home for (however temporary that home is), they have likely turned off a person from ever considering adopting a horse or purchasing one from a similar broker situation.
Between being antagonistic in person or on the phone to acting obnoxious on many online message boards, forums, and FB (not even mentioning the underhanded fundraising), AC$H has alienated many people who, rather than deciding to spend the time researching decent rescues and placement services, will simply decide most or all rescues are similar and will not donate, adopt or support in any manner horse rescues.
And many will not “suffer in silence” - they will spread the word of how underhanded, criminal, nasty, etc. those horse rescue people are, harming those who do try to do it above board. And who ends up harmed? The horses.
[QUOTE=sassysmom;6969565]
Sketcher
There are good homes out there but we go through at least 10 or 20 applicants to find that one home. Why would we bother to help a horse if we are just goign to pass it out like Halloween candy. [/QUOTE]
You completely missed the point which is that there are more than one business model for rescuing horses (and based on how many of them are run, I use the word ‘business’ lightly). ‘Your’ rescue might go through 10-20 applicants and ‘my’ rescue might pick them up at the auction and give them to the first person who comes along so that I can then go back to the auction and pull more. Two different philosophies, neither one wrong or right. Just different.
Good post Moon
Many of us do have a history (as donors) with this group. I was asked to leave the rescue portion of TROT (I was not banned) as the ladies running it stated I was negative… A Saddlebred was up for rescue…price $550.00 gelding…below average but not starvation…they claimed they gave shots and farrier but the picture (taken AFTER) did not reflect that.
Donations came to about $350-$400 and the plea went out…save from slaughter save from slaughter. Many of us tossed $25.00 into the pool. We got close but no bananas. They would NOT drop the price
Another case was a dual fund raising but one hand did not know about the other on FB. One person set their heart on the horse (don’t remember what it was) and this time the amount was met AND an amnount to transport the horse to its new home…BUT the horse “was gone” A FB group claimed it.
On one hand I was happy the horse found a home but I was disappointed when the TROT group never even asked…want your money back (it was more than 25$) OR put towards another horse. They finally said (the trot group)…if you don’t want it put towards saving another from slaughter then contact us.
There seemed to be so many problems with 4H…my only consolation was, they did help pull ASB’s from the “pen” and at least offer them
Many anti slaughter posters have clearly stated on other threads that brokers shoud be FORCED to sell for what ever the bid price is plus …maybe a dollar OR they should also be forced to sell to anyone who wants it from the pen after the KB has purchased it.
If 4H disappears like many rescues are now doing…I do not think the brokers will become involved with reoffering. I do believe more horses will lack even the slightest chance of saving…but the more I read and am told…maybe that is a good thing
Maybe this whole rescue movement is about as relevant as “save the cod fish”.
One thing…all of those who are anti slaughter NOW have an opportunity to form a save the horse group and get someone to start purchasing horses in the ring…get them for 25$ and up to $200 like the KB’s do…
Rescue is just big business with clothing on
[QUOTE=MoonoverMississippi;6969586]
Two points…
For all of those who had decent dealings with AC4H, great! I’m truly glad it worked out for you as well as it did!
But saying that is all that is important is that you recieved a horse you like is, IMHO, similar to saying “But the dog I got from a puppy mill was FINE, that’s what matters, they find homes for puppies! All that other stuff doesn’t really matter!”
For every horse they have found a home for (however temporary that home is), they have likely turned off a person from ever considering adopting a horse or purchasing one from a similar broker situation.
Between being antagonistic in person or on the phone to acting obnoxious on many online message boards, forums, and FB (not even mentioning the underhanded fundraising), AC$H has alienated many people who, rather than deciding to spend the time researching decent rescues and placement services, will simply decide most or all rescues are similar and will not donate, adopt or support in any manner horse rescues.
And many will not “suffer in silence” - they will spread the word of how underhanded, criminal, nasty, etc. those horse rescue people are, harming those who do try to do it above board. And who ends up harmed? The horses.[/QUOTE]
This is so true. I’m one who would never again donate or adopt a horse from a rescue. Besides the shady dealings of so many faux rescues, the final straw is purchasing some poor animal and instead of euthanizing immediately, pump thousands of dollars into vet bills to either have to euthanize anyway, or end up with some crippled pasture pet instead of using the funds to help serviceable horses. When you’re using donated funds, we actually DO expect you to use it wisely. I DO help individual horses when I can and have purchased to horses out of rescue situations on my own, kept them until they expired, one for 10 years, one for 12 and am currently awaiting delivery of my next case. But no more donations for me.
If I recall correctly, weren’t there some issues with both AC4H and VFH raising funds for the same horses without combining them?
[QUOTE=minnie;6969807]
This is so true. I’m one who would never again donate or adopt a horse from a rescue. Besides the shady dealings of so many faux rescues, the final straw is purchasing some poor animal and instead of euthanizing immediately, pump thousands of dollars into vet bills to either have to euthanize anyway, or end up with some crippled pasture pet instead of using the funds to help serviceable horses. When you’re using donated funds, we actually DO expect you to use it wisely. I DO help individual horses when I can and have purchased to horses out of rescue situations on my own, kept them until they expired, one for 10 years, one for 12 and am currently awaiting delivery of my next case. But no more donations for me.[/QUOTE]
There’s a difference…at least there should be, between a sanctuary and a rescue. And I agree, it’s crazy to spend thousands on one horse when you could use that to rehab and adopt out 10 for the same amount of money.
Oh, this gets even more interesting:
Celita Kramer claims that AC4H is trying to sell one of her horses.
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.579728422057377.1073741833.113580512005506&type=1
[QUOTE=luvmytbs;6969945]
Oh, this gets even more interesting:
Celita Kramer claims that AC4H is trying to sell one of her horses.
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.579728422057377.1073741833.113580512005506&type=1[/QUOTE]
Oh, but AC4H contacted SWAP (Celeita) to inform her that the KB had him. Deflection, anyone? Or maybe AC4H is trying to pull SWAP down with them?
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.579728422057377.1073741833.113580512005506&type=1#!/permalink.php?story_fbid=579688392061380&id=113580512005506
Yes, this is getting even more interesting!
Maybe they are gonna split the profits from the bail money they’ll ask to be donated? :lol:
Hello FBI if you are reading! If you have spare time on your hands and have some IRS buddies who do as well, this could keep you busy:http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?365037-Doing-business-with-JILL-BURNELL-BEWARE
Liberty or luvmytbs
Or whoever else has the power?
For those of us who do not access Facebook, is it possible to give us Lurky Lou’s a synopsis of the goings on, if not a re-print?
Thank You
FacelessAlter
[QUOTE=Angela Freda;6968159]
Oh yes, good ol’ SWAP.
ETA it is my understanding that any items bought with donated funds or donated to a 501c3 are to be turned over to another 501c3 should the original one go ‘out of business’. ??[/QUOTE]
TRUE
[QUOTE=skydy;6970054]
Hello FBI if you are reading! If you have spare time on your hands and have some IRS buddies who do as well, this could keep you busy:http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?365037-Doing-business-with-JILL-BURNELL-BEWARE[/QUOTE]
This in spades
I will simply relate my story.
In 2004 I first dealt with Christy when AC4H posted a list of PMU foals in a feedlot in the Dakotas (N or S I don’t remember). I bought 2. The purchase fee was low, shipping was super-cheap and I felt all warm and fuzzy. One foal was very ill with pneumonia, ringworm and mal-nutrition and the other was in pretty good shape. I was buying horses from a feedlot and didn’t expect much different. They ended up being nice little horses so I started them and eventually resold them at a huge loss when you consider feed and fencing, shelter and maintenance for almost 2 years. It was during college and I was not too far from home so Dad and I had fenced a couple of pastures off on my parent’s 11 acre property. I ended up moving home for about a year and a half after college and it was during that time that I became move involved with AC4H. At one point I was coding and updating their website. It was a mess and there was another lady who was also making updates so it would screw up the formatting every time. If I remember the dates correctly it would have been around 2005.
I bought a Saddlebred off of their broker page for around $495 and picked him up. I knew he was in rough shape but he ended up being a pretty decent fellow and a great trail horse. Again, I resold him for far less than the months of feed, farrier and vet bills I put into him. At the same time I bought a mini from the broker page to be his quarantine buddy. The mini had a bit of a cough. No big deal after some SMZs.
I bought a beautiful Appaloosa off of their broker page intending to have some fun bringing him along as a resale prospect. I ended up falling in love with him and decided to keep him. Unfortunately, I had to put him down after a freak accident with my poly rope fencing. It was tight and hot… I’m not sure how he managed to roll just so it wrapped fully around his leg. Then he ran parallel to the fence instead of away from it and it degloved his hind from mid-cannon down. My vet got there in 15 minutes while Domino was still in shock, resting his head on my shoulder, calm as could be.
I wanted to get a bit more involved so I met up with Christy and her husband at New Holland. My mom was with me, and while not a horse person, she enjoyed having the horses at her house and seeing them go from skinny, rough, sad looking creatures to glossy, healthy, happy horses. I was a bit overwhelmed at the auction. I’d been to Timonium and bought my main riding horse there in 2003. That was easy. I just put my hand up and kept nodding until the gavel fell! At NH, I had no idea what the cost was or who was bidding. A beautiful black draft cross came into the ring a bit off on a hind. I was interested but didn’t quite know what to do. Christy’s husband won the bid but I ended up paying for him and taking him home. $350 and Christy told me it was Don Nickerson, a kill buyer, who had been bidding against them.
“Max” ended up being a fantastic trail horse and his lameness was an abscess that healed quickly. He was always a bit tricky about having his feet handled. I was moving away from home and didn’t have the money to board multiple horses. My mom wanted to keep the mini but couldn’t manage Max, so I asked Christy if she knew of anyone looking for a horse like him. I brought him out to her house and an adopter met me there, rode him up and down the road and fell in love with him. I brought back another mini with slipper feet and my mom kept the two minis after I left home. She eventually found another home for them a few miles away.
I didn’t do any of this for the money. I was hemorrhaging it out in feed, vet bills, farrier bills, etc. The horse market was dismal for anything not well broke and showing.
I won’t defend Christy’s actions if she did indeed turn around and resell horses that others had “bailed.” I wasn’t closely involved enough to know that was going on. I do know that without Christy’s help I would not have gotten into helping any of these horses. I wasn’t looking for a lifelong horse, I didn’t want to deal with 10 page application forms and farm visits. AC4H made it easy. Maybe too easy in some people’s eyes. Maybe some of the horses I sold eventually went back to the auction. At least I know that they had a chance. They were fit and healthy and had more training than they started with when they left. Cabby, Fox, Lucian, Domino, Max and Cloud all got a chance.
I’ve followed AC4H for a long time and interviewed Christy on a few occasions. It seems to have gone south when she got involved with broker horses. Before that, she’d raise money to buy a horse or two from New Holland and rehome them. Once she hooked up with Moore, it wasn’t a horse or two a week but dozens. She also was quite friendly with a woman named “Tee.” Tee died unexpectedly, quite young, with no one claiming her body. It turned out that the name she’d been using was an alias, that she had a criminal record for fraud. She and CS had been tight as ticks, but when Tee died and the truth came out CS never commented about it. I always wondered whether Tee sort of schooled her in the art of the con. Maybe, maybe not, but that’s about when AC4H went from an organization with a fairly good rep to a fairly bad one.
So Celeita is ’ a month away from selling the farm’. SWAP/She hasn’t been taking back ‘SWAP horses’ and she is surprised that Rock Doctor has ended up at the KB’s? Interestingly that poor horse has gone thru a series of adopters over the years…as I recall…several claimed he was misrepresented to them by SWAP. Christy used good marketing skills…trace owner when registered stock …they MIGHT be interested in saving the horse.
But she never did 501©3 paperwork and has been flying under the radar for all these years. Neither the IRS nor WV has pursued her illegal activites. And anyone wonders why these shady ‘rescues’ have proliferated?? it has been too easy to fudge.
Jill Burnell thread - horrifying!!
[QUOTE=uphill;6970222]
So Celeita is ’ a month away from selling the farm’. SWAP/She hasn’t been taking back ‘SWAP horses’ and she is surprised that Rock Doctor has ended up at the KB’s? Interestingly that poor horse has gone thru a series of adopters over the years…as I recall…several claimed he was misrepresented to them by SWAP. Christy used good marketing skills…trace owner when registered stock …they MIGHT be interested in saving the horse.
But she never did 501©3 paperwork and has been flying under the radar for all these years. Neither the IRS nor WV has pursued her illegal activites. And anyone wonders why these shady ‘rescues’ have proliferated?? it has been too easy to fudge.[/QUOTE]
Celeita Kramer / Crossed Sabers / SWAP has been “a month away” of “losing the farm” for YEARS. I’m guessing it’s been a somewhat successful marketing ploy since she’s still using it.
I can only hope that with the Feds shining the spotlight on AC4H, they also shine it in the direction of Celeita Kramer. From what I’ve read and heard, AC4H and SWAP appear to me to be two of the biggest “horse adoption/rescue” scams on the East Coast.
