Festival of Champions

[Manni01]

Not sure whether that makes a difference. For sure it makes showing more affordable, but other than that judges in the US and Judges in Europe are pretty much the same.

My favorite this year in Germany was the judge who was judging with 2 other judges in a show (in Germany you have sometimes 3 judges starting from 2nd level). And the next week she was showing herself and was judged by one of the judges who was her colleague the week before…. (She did pretty well) I am sure it’s totally legal and ok.

And no!!! I am not implying that US judges would do that!!!

And really it is a problem to find new judges willing to deal with all the hassle…. So I don’t complain….

[Angela_Freda]

@pluvinel

In 1984 Keen, born in 1966 was 17 years old. How many 17 year old horses are still competing at Olympic levels today?

Plus the level of maintenance if these horses then vs now is vastly different.

[Mondo]

@Angela_Freda

Plus the level of maintenance if these horses then vs now is vastly different.

I think most of the dressage horses are in their teens at the Olympics. It takes a long time to get even a finished GP horse to that level. Lots of international competitions, etc. Yes, there are some that are 10-12, but I think they are fewer than the seasoned ones.

[Knights_Mom]

They almost have to be in their teens or close to as I believe there is a minimum age?

[lazaret]

The minimum age is I believe 8, so there’s still some room. But Gio at 10 was a very early Olympic horse and most are 14 or older.

[Angela_Freda]

I meant a horse today vs Keen.
We didn’t have the interventions then, for an older horse like Keen, that we do now for a horse that age, was what I was suggesting.

[DownYonder]

I just looked at the top placed 15 teams at Tokyo.

Gio (Dujardin, GB) was born in 2011, so he was 9 y/o. There were several other 9 y/o’s there - Danciera (Kruth, Denmark), Go Legend (van Baalen, Netherlands), and Te Quiero SF (Schumach, Austria).

But they were not the youngest. That distinction goes to Total US (Gal, Netherlands), who was born in 2012 - so was 8 years old.

The oldest horses in the top 15 teams were born in 2004, so were 16 years old. Bella Rose 2 (Werth, Germany), Zack (Merrald, Denmark), Zo What (Ayache, France), and Mister X (Merkulova). There were also several 15 year olds (born in 2005) - Fill Rouge (Roos, Belgium), All In (Fraser-Beaulieu, Canada), and Scolari 4 (Hayashi, Japan).

If I had time, I would look up ages for horses in the previous Olympics. I think I remember hearing about some that were in their late teens. I also think that in the past, horses were started slower and took longer to develop. But the trend for the past 20-30 years or so has been to push them up through the levels as fast as they can go without breaking, to increase the value of horse and rider and breeder (and for national pride). And that methodology is aided by modern advances in veterinary medicine and technology.

(Not sure I am making sense, I had surgery yesterday and am on pain killers.)

[lazaret]

Tokyo took place in 2021, so a horse born in 2004 would have been 17, not 16, and Gio would have been 10, not 9.

Interesting that we say that the trend has been to develop horses more quickly when Keen would have been 10 in 1976 and I believe the 1978 world champion eventing horse was 8 (Might Tango)

[DownYonder]

@lazaret

Tokyo took place in 2021, so a horse born in 2004 would have been 17, not 16, and Gio would have been 10, not 9.

Interesting that we say that the trend has been to develop horses more quickly when Keen would have been 10 in 1976 and I believe the 1978 world champion eventing horse was 8 (Might Tango)

Ah, thanks for that correction. I knew something about my research was off, but again, I’m not thinking clearly today!

And good points about Keen and Might Tango. I wonder if they were outliers or if they were “par for the course” in their time.

[ASB_Stars]

@lazaret

Interesting that we say that the trend has been to develop horses more quickly when Keen would have been 10 in 1976 and I believe the 1978 world champion eventing horse was 8 (Might Tango)

And Might Tango won, and was fried in Kentucky, and didn’t compete again.

Keen came up through the levels, and as mentioned, was 19 when he last competed in the Olympics. Quite a feat!

[lazaret]

He was still 10 when he went to the first Olympics, in a conversation where we allegedly train horses too fast now but somehow that same age and progression was an example of good training then.

Of course the difference now is the standard for performance and athleticism is significantly higher for the horses.

[Manni01]

Just saying Dalera (Jessica von Bredow Werndl) was born in 2007

[ASB_Stars]

@lazaret

Of course the difference now is the standard for performance and athleticism is significantly higher for the horses.

Are you referring to the range of motion and suspension that is shown by the horses at the highest levels of success? Because correct is and has always been correct. Is the more flamboyant movement what you are referring to?

[lazaret]

While I don’t agree that flamboyant is the word I am looking for, horses today are much more powerful movers with much more ability to sit behind and lift the forehand.

[pluvinel]

@lazaret

While I don’t agree that flamboyant is the word I am looking for, horses today are much more powerful movers with much more ability to sit behind and lift the forehand.

Maybe you mean “bling”…er sorry, the L-program calls it “brilliance” of the gaits.

Back “in the day” the horses that competed in dressage were work horses…eg., horses that had to take a soldier to war as the Olympics were not open to civilians until after WW2.

Today’s “purpose bred” dressage horses are bred for going round and round in a 20x60m arena. These horses have no “functional purpose” to do a real working job.

This is the analog to when the AKC took a perfectly good working dog and perverted a breed by introducing physical defects when dogs were rewarded by its judging criteria…eg., hip dysplasia in the GSD.

The Portuguese are currently wrecking the Lusitano breed, a breed traditionally bred to work cattle, by breeding 17hh giants to sell into the competition dressage market.

[lazaret]

@pluvinel

Today’s “purpose bred” dressage horses are bred for going round and round in a 20x60m arena.

Well since that is the job they are asked to do, then it would make sense they are bred for it.

By the same argument, Thoroughbreds are bred to run medium distances on synthetic surfaces, which is not a functional job either. They run at the whim of owners, for money. Dressage horses go in circles for the same exact purpose.

[Cowgirl]

Sure, and Kastel is benefitting from her becoming a public figure in Dressage…

[Mondo]

@pluvinel

Today’s “purpose bred” dressage horses are bred for going round and round in a 20x60m arena. These horses have no “functional purpose” to do a real working job.

That’s true to a point. But I am excited about the increasing popularity of Working Equitation. You can do it with those purpose bred horses and their fancy movement avails them nothing, but it doesn’t hinder them either. They can be taught to work and quite well.

[atlatl]

@Cowgirl

Sure, and Kastel is benefitting from her becoming a public figure in Dressage…

Yes, because we all know that dressage is such a huge market for anything /s

[Bogey2]

I would love to try working equitation…I also want to try one of the saddles.