Game Over

[poltroon]

[QUOTE=Hauwse;2868297]
I am sorry, but I have to weigh in here, and I no doubt will get a lot of flak for it.

I have been reading this post and it amazes me how many posters are saying directly or inadvertently that they are fully capable of finding quality horses without their trainers input.

A few things come to mind when I read these posts, there are a lot of crappy trainers out there who’s clients apparently have little regard, or respect for them, people are giving themselves more credit for finding their horses than they deserve, the horses they are finding are great in their eye’s only, or there are a bunch of people out there who are wasting money on trainers because they know as much or more than their trainers, and apparently do not need them.

Simply put finding a great horse is no easy task. Depending on the requirements of the horse, it can be the hardest part of the business. It is not something to be experimented with, or to be employed as some ego altering experience, nor is it some horsemanship badge acquiring task.

There are riders/trainers/professionals that compete at the top levels who would never think of buying a horse without significant input. Yet here on the BB 75% of us are capable of going it alone.

The truth is that this is a skill possessed by the very few, and is not one that came to those who have the skills easily. Does it happen that people fall into a great horse… yes, but let’s not confuse that with the type of knowledge and understanding it takes to find great horses on the regular, for a matrix of clients, skills, goals, etc.

I do not know who your trainers are but I feel for them. There are many, many great trainers out there who bust their**es on a daily bases for clients, have the same consideration for their clients as they do their families, and want nothing but the very best for their clients.

Apparently there are a number of people who have lost sight of the burden of responsibility a trainer takes on when they take on a client. It is not just about teaching you how to ride better etc. It’s easy to see a trainer as a dictator when your ego gets in the way, but think about some of the issues they have to deal with, like your safety! Trust me you have no idea what a dictator a clients death will make you.

I believe this is exactly why this thread was posted, because in the horse business everyone is an expert, and never is it more apparent then when it comes to buying, and evaluating horses, every armchair expert has access to you.[/QUOTE]

I think it depends on what you’re shopping for.

Yes, if I’m shopping for a GREAT horse you’d better believe I’d get some help shopping for it. They’re hard to find and that’s a high stakes purchase. If you’re buying a horse at the top of your experience, it’s valuable to have extra input - although sometimes that’s not the trainer-as-agent input, but the trainer-as-vetcheck type input.

On the other hand, a lot of amateurs are shopping for NICE horses, horses that they or a family member will enjoy and have a good time with, at a level they’ve done before or perhaps below that. And, they may have a more casual relationship with a trainer than you’re positing, responsible for their own care and daily routine.

[ponyjumper4]

Oh, and I’ve seen plenty of trainers make bad buying decisions for their clients as well.

[WWGeorgeMorrisD]

Maybe it’s just how things read on the internet… but you come across as having quite a bad attitude. Does that help you make sales? Your horse sounds like the shiznit. Be glad he didn’t sell, the next person will be falling all over themselves to get your megasuper awesome horse, will probably pay twice as much, and will be loving your dismissive attitude about amateurs. :winkgrin: In fact, maybe you’ll get some clients who have just been waiting to get spoonfed!

[WWGeorgeMorrisD]

[QUOTE=SSFLandon;2868354]
PS, if you read this thread you’ll notice that my opinion is like many others[/QUOTE]

I think, if you read this thread, you’ll see that there are also lots of posts disagreeing.

[Hauwse]

[QUOTE=Lucassb;2868311]
Yes, Hauwse, it amazes a LOT of professionals that there are amateurs out here who can buy their own horses successfully.

Doesn’t mean it isn’t true.

And for the record, it often has nothing at all to do with our regard for the trainers we employ.

I buy only for myself and wouldn’t presume to advise others, but of the horses I have now, the oldest (bought at 5, now semi retired) earned ribbons at A shows throughout the SE, including Zone ribbons in the adults. The one I am currently showing (also bought green, at 5) has earned ribbons from FL to VT and is ready to march into the A/O ring this year in the best company. The third is brand new and still a baby, just coming 4, so the jury’s still out on that one. However, one of the top BNT’s looked at him last week and offered me just short of double what I’d paid, so I think I did OK. (No, he’s not for sale, I only buy for myself.)

That being said, I value and appreciate my professional’s help. I have learned a lot from him and from my past trainers. But evaluating horses is not some magical power that is limited only to professionals. A lot of us have been doing this quite a while, and are perfectly capable of finding our own.[/QUOTE]

If I am correct you have been involved for 30+ years? If I am wrong forgive me.

That kind of experience speaks volumes, and so my comments are obviously not directed at you.

My father is a trainer, no, a great trainer, and I started riding the moment I hit the ground, 40+ years, I have been there done that since I was 12 years old, and I have seen the big top show from every angle imaginable. I have been buying and selling horses for years, and my experience is, regardless of the random success of some individuals, there is no substitute for the experience of someone is a true student of horses. It does not matter what the discipline, what they call themselves amateur or pro the individuals who truly have the skill to find good horses are far and few between, and even they bounce horses off like people.

The elements of this thread are exactly why I refuse to train students other than my children, or my brothers children. People simply don’t get what is involved in being a trainer.

At the end of the day, I find it hard to believe that there are so many individuals out there that are really capable; more than likely they are all students of the “bred for” skill which has little to do with evaluating horses.

[PineTreeFarm]

@Hauwse;2868297

I am sorry, but I have to weigh in here, and I no doubt will get a lot of flak for it.

I have been reading this post and it amazes me how many posters are saying directly or inadvertently that they are fully capable of finding quality horses without their trainers input.

The truth is that this is a skill possessed by the very few, and is not one that came to those who have the skills easily.

I believe this is exactly why this thread was posted, because in the horse business everyone is an expert, and never is it more apparent then when it comes to buying, and evaluating horses, every armchair expert has access to you.

And it amazes me how many people think they are ‘trainers’.
I think you will find that there are a LOT of amateurs who are quite capable of finding their own horses. If you didn’t already know that you should by now after reading some of these posts.

Some amateurs find their own prospects and then pay a trainer to evaulate the horse rather than a commission.

[Bogie]

Gosh, when I’ve bought a horse, I have usually done the negotiations myself and made a separate deal with my trainers (like the poster above, I’ll pay a trainer to evaluate a horse). I sometimes bring them to look at a horse; more often I’ll show them a video of my riding the horse. It depends on the price tag and what I want to do with the horse. My trainers have always been paid for their participation and they know that I value their input.

Likewise, I have a good relationship with my vet and I understand how to interpret PPEs. I am very clear about what I want to do with a horse and he is equally clear about what a PPE can tell me!

Earlier in my riding career, I did involve trainers more. I felt I needed more guidance and wanted to make sure I didn’t buy something that was inappropriate (I’ve certainly seen people buy horses that weren’t suitable when they’ve shopped on their own).

But not everyone makes bad decisions without having their hand held. I’m an adult, I sign my own checks and I have a very good idea of what will/won’t work for me. I’d be very miffed if a seller didn’t want to deal with me directly.

[Ruby_G_Weber]

Without having read this entire thread I have only thing to add to this discussion.

We feel much more comfortable when a potential buyer - who claims to be an amateur - comes with a trainer representing them.

Primarily for the following reason.

In theory the trainer knows the clients skill level. Assuming the trainer is acting in best interest of the client, and is knowledgeable, said trainer will not allow client to get on a horse that looks like it might be beyond client’s ability. Many (not all) unaccompanied amateurs get caught up - excited - with the entire process and insist upon riding the horse.

We have, on more than one occasion, been put in the uncomfortable situation of having to ask the unaccompanied amateur buyer to get off the horse - for their own sake. We have never had this experience when someone was accompanied by their advisor. And yes, we have, several times, had trainers wisely opt not to put their client on our horse.

We have also told professionals they have jumped enough, ridden the horse long enough or tried it enough times, but that’s another story.

[2ndyrgal]

Horsefeathers

I started my first horse when I was 13. Sold that one and bought my first of many more a year later. I’ve been buying, riding, showing and selling since high school and that was nearly 30 years ago. I am an ammie. With a ton of experience, an exasperating knowledge of conformation and markets and more importantly… I have money. And I’ve been looking for a nice horse for the last several months. When people tell me “bring or send your trainer”, I reply I have no need for one to purchase a horse, they thank me and never return a phone call. I’ve made money on every horse I’ve ever sold, most of them purchased from me BY trainers for clients. I tell them what I want, I don’t care what they sell it for. So if you have a nice horse, reasonably priced, BEFORE the commission you don’t have to add if I buy him, give me a pm. Most trainers I’ve ridden with (and that includes some BNT’s that show in the big A stuff, trust my judgement and never say “well if you buy him and I don’t like him, I’m not working with you”. What they usually say is “where did you FIND him???, and how much do you want for him”. So, weed out the tire kickers (or don’t hey we own a used car lot, sometimes you have to put up with the bs, because even if susie and her mom don’t buy, susie tells her little miss rich kid pal about the beautiful horse she tried that they just can’t afford. Little miss rich kid goes to daddy warbucks and rings you up…surprise…a horse sale by word of mouth. Anyone that markets anything, has to be prepared for lookers that don’t buy. Those of you that get offended when someone doesn’t buy your pookie must have had a hard time on Friday night in high school. Dear friend of mine had a dressage bred gelding that she paid about 10K for as a yearling, Nice horse, but he was just not living up to his potential as a dressage horse. Chestnut, gorgeous head and neck, 4 whites and a blaze. Asked her if she’d jumped him, no, but if I’d agree to pop him over a couple fences, she’d make a video. He was a STAR, and she sold him, via video and x-rays on dream horse for over 30K. She took me to dinner and I was thrilled for her. So when you are really in the market to sell something, sometimes, you have to humor people and kiss ass unless you are really up in the rare air where most of us won’t ever be. I swear though, I really think half the “oh yes he’s for sale” is just a ploy so the husband’s don’t get pissed off at you. Really, if I had a dollar for every call or email that wasn’t returned when I inquired about a sale horse, I could buy Rox Dene!

[2ndyrgal]

because I missed one of the posts

Just because we don’t buy our horses through our trainers does not mean we do not value their opinion or respect them, but after a certain amount of experience, some of us horsemen, and we’re not just talking rider here, know what we want, and what we like, even if it isn’t necessarily what we need. I’m sure that Brianne Goutal (sp) is a wonderful young lady and will be training others down the road(I use her only as an example, because she in well known and young), but I’m sure I’ve sat on many more and many different horses, and been on my knees wrapping legs more than she will in the next 20 years or so. The people qualified to advise some of us (which would mean they had WAY more knowledge and skill) are so far up in the big leagues, GM, David O’Connor, Jimmy Wofford, Klimke etc, that we aren’t ever going to be able to afford what they’d advise us to buy anyway. So to the OP, quit whining, at least someone is coming to look, do you really think that the first person that sees them is going to put them on a truck?

[LarissaL]

[QUOTE=Hauwse;2868297]
I am sorry, but I have to weigh in here, and I no doubt will get a lot of flak for it.

I have been reading this post and it amazes me how many posters are saying directly or inadvertently that they are fully capable of finding quality horses without their trainers input.

A few things come to mind when I read these posts, there are a lot of crappy trainers out there who’s clients apparently have little regard, or respect for them, people are giving themselves more credit for finding their horses than they deserve, the horses they are finding are great in their eye’s only, or there are a bunch of people out there who are wasting money on trainers because they know as much or more than their trainers, and apparently do not need them.

Simply put finding a great horse is no easy task. Depending on the requirements of the horse, it can be the hardest part of the business. It is not something to be experimented with, or to be employed as some ego altering experience, nor is it some horsemanship badge acquiring task.

There are riders/trainers/professionals that compete at the top levels who would never think of buying a horse without significant input. Yet here on the BB 75% of us are capable of going it alone.

The truth is that this is a skill possessed by the very few, and is not one that came to those who have the skills easily. Does it happen that people fall into a great horse… yes, but let’s not confuse that with the type of knowledge and understanding it takes to find great horses on the regular, for a matrix of clients, skills, goals, etc.

I do not know who your trainers are but I feel for them. There are many, many great trainers out there who bust their**es on a daily bases for clients, have the same consideration for their clients as they do their families, and want nothing but the very best for their clients.

Apparently there are a number of people who have lost sight of the burden of responsibility a trainer takes on when they take on a client. It is not just about teaching you how to ride better etc. It’s easy to see a trainer as a dictator when your ego gets in the way, but think about some of the issues they have to deal with, like your safety! Trust me you have no idea what a dictator a clients death will make you.

I believe this is exactly why this thread was posted, because in the horse business everyone is an expert, and never is it more apparent then when it comes to buying, and evaluating horses, every armchair expert has access to you.[/QUOTE]

I fully agree. Amateurs never know how little they know. And trainers often don’t receive the credit and loyalty deserved.

However, I think the replies on this thread are from two different perspectives. One is speaking of the greenish or local rider and the other of the seasoned and educated individual.

I think moreso than hoping the potential buyer comes with a trainer, be proactive in assuring that you will either be dealing with a professional or an appropriately respectful and well suited amateur.

I typically accomplish this first by using appropriate language in a sale ad. If I know the horse isn’t flashy or overly athletic, he’s great for “local showing,” a “youth’s horse” or an “all arounder” as appropriate. If he’s got potential and could be a serious prospect, he’s “talented and well suited to a serious amateur or up and coming professional.” I’ve had good luck with very few local types coming to see these horses - to them, this reads “difficult and scary” but to the serious competitor I have in mind, it just says “athletic with potential!”

I then follow up by paying attention to clues in the buyer’s use of language in emails or phone calls. Some simple questioning will extract their real intent

ETA: apologies for the first statement. Wasn’t intended to come off how it did and wasn’t read through a second time for comprehension. It was supposed to be the concise version of many novice horse owners not understanding how many factors need to be considered for compatability of horse & rider (including tolerance of soundness issues, training, etc). Thus feeding into underappreciation for trainer’s abilities. Guess I have no shown my ineptitude at conveying thoughts without being verbose.

[Chezzie]

@MDEventer;2868520

I fully agree. Amateurs never know how little they know. And trainers often don’t receive the credit and loyalty deserved.

Wow…talk about painting with a broad brush. Amateurs are the bread and butter of this sport…where would all the trainers be without their customers? The trainer/client relationship is mutually beneficial, as long as there is respect on both sides. I don’t think I would feel very respected if I were your customer right now…

[horsegirl520]

I got my horse against my [former] trainer’s best judgement 7 years ago (when I was 12 years old)… and still have him. I found him, I tried him, and I bought him. My trainer saw him once before I bought him, and she thought he was was too much horse for me (which he was, at the time), but I went ahead and went through with it anyways. I’m glad I did.

I don’t board with my [current] trainer, and honestly, I pretty much just meet up with my trainer at the A shows… and go to B and C shows by myself… and we clean up. Not all amateurs are incompetent.

If you want frustrating, try going to a horseshow without a trainer. Talk about getting stepped on… I just LOVE getting kicked out of the ingate by all high and mighty trainers who’s students must go in right that second. Or getting ugly looks when I ask if I can jump “their” jump in the schooling ring.

Trainers aren’t gods. Amateurs are people too, and if you want to sell the horse badly enough, you’ll accept that you’re going to get a few tire kickers.

Do you think every person who test drives a car ends up buying one? No. Does this frustrates salesmen? Yes. But it’s part of the business, so either deal with it or get out of the business.

Rant over.

[Janet]

I would just point out that there are plenty of licensed officials (judges, stewards, TDs) who are amateurs.

Are you QUITE SURE that “Amateurs never know how little they know.”???

[KC_and_the_Sunshine]

This thread shows a marked lack of disrespect from the OP (and a few others) for his or her customer base.

When shopping horses I treat the seller with respect and assume they know what they are doing until they prove otherwise. Just because a person calls him/herself a professional does not mean he or she is able to act in a professional manner.

I spend a lot of money on horses and I expect to be treated with respect by the seller, especially if they are a professional. If it were me and I were about to drop 50K (assuming that’s how much this horse is) on a horse and the seller disrespected me in any way I’d walk away and say “You’ll never see a dime from me for treating me that way.”

[Trixie]

If I am correct you have been involved for 30+ years? If I am wrong forgive me.

That kind of experience speaks volumes, and so my comments are obviously not directed at you.

The elements of this thread are exactly why I refuse to train students other than my children, or my brothers children. People simply don’t get what is involved in being a trainer.

This is precisely why I reminded the OP in my earlier post that this IS, in fact, a BUSINESS.

Again, I realize that horses are an “emotional” business, but they’re a business nonetheless. If a trainer cannot train anyone other than a relative, frankly, there’s something emotionally incorrect there - and they aren’t running their business like a business. There is a time when it’s correct to separate one’s business life from one’s personal life: that time is when on calls oneself a PROFESSIONAL.

While I have the UTMOST respect for my trainer and would most likely consult him if I were to purchase another horse (and I am not a pro, but I do ride other people’s horses - who I have brought to him for his guidance) - the people who refuse to do business with me without his presence are the people who are going to lose the sale. Alienating half your potential client base is akin to shooting oneself in the foot - it’s TERRIBLE business sense.

I fully agree. Amateurs never know how little they know. And trainers often don’t receive the credit and loyalty deserved.

Be careful what you’re saying here. I agree with what Janet said: are you SURE you mean that? ESPECIALLY in a business where one can be a professional WITHOUT QUALIFICATIONS?

Hmm, it’s a two way street, sure is…

[taita]

I do not see any possible way someone can make a legit generalization like that about the horse industry!
I’ve bought several horses from reputable A circuit people (even bought one from Jim Elder), sometimes I followed a coaches advice and sometimes I used my own judgement. Every horse has it’s own individual problems and quirks that both an amateur and a BNT can’t forsee.
The first horse I bought was by myself, I showed him competitively on the Ontario A circuit for 8 years before he got sick and had to be put down.
The next two were on the advice of two different trainers…I sold each of them after only one season.
The next one I also bought myself, he was four at the time and I love him to death! I’ve shown in both the AA and the Amateur Owners and don’t regret anything.

P.S. Depending on the price range there are many people out there selling horses that know less than the average amateur or junior.

[spoiledsweet]

I do not know who your trainers are but I feel for them. There are many, many great trainers out there who bust their**es on a daily bases for clients, have the same consideration for their clients as they do their families, and want nothing but the very best for their clients.

And then there are trainers who do a half-hearted job for good clients and still expect the clients to line their pockets for little if any service. They’ve earned the right to have that attitude, they deserve to have their clients foot the bill for one more month in FL, etc. etc. Yeah. Been there, done that.

I’ve found good and bad horses on my own, and wound up with good and bad horses through trainers (the bad ones in hindsight because the trainer couldn’t be bothered to do the legwork to earn the commission and make a good match). I’ve also had a longtime trainer decide that I wasn’t spending enough money (mid-five figures - to me, that’s plenty of money for a lower-level jumper) and not bother to help me. And tell me that to my face. Guess that four-figure commission wasn’t worth the bother despite all the money this trainer had already made off of me over several years - from training, away shows, purchases, sales and leases, etc. There is a reason people get tired of paying endless commissions and dealing with trainer egos and b.s. I think experienced ammy’s eventually hit a breaking point with it and decide enough is enough. I’m happy to pay for good service, but I’m sick of paying for less than that.

[ef80]

I’ve never involved a trainer in my horse-purchases. I’ve been lucky enough to have fantastically knowledgeable family members who have been able to either shop for me or give their honest opinion of anything I’m considering. Additionally, she’s pretty well connected and always has a lead on something worth buying.

I will -always- ask her opinion no matter what I’m buying, whether it costs $500 or $150k, even if I’ve got a trainer involved. I will also probably trust her opinion as much, if not more than any trainer I’m with - she’s got my best interests at heart: a good buy, a sound horse, a safe horse, and something that I would be able to re-sell should I need to. A trainer should also have those things in mind first and foremost, but comissions can complicate the issue for many. It never hurts to have another knowledgeable set of eyes to offer input who have no monetary stake in the whole affair.

I am confident enough to shop on my own and do - I am certain that if I didn’t have my “go-to” person, I wouldn’t be. I’ve found that as long as I present myself as "professionally"as possible (polo shirt, polished tall boots, return calls/emails, follow-up, etc) I don’t get any gruff for being trainer-less, even from trainers.

[2ndyrgal]

The definition of “professional” is a person who gets paid their services. Just because some little sheep 'who don’t know how little they don’t know" follow the pied piper, doesn’t mean that he isn’t going to lead them off the cliff. There are many people who are not qualified by any other definition other that payment, “advising” their gullible clients on their next purchase. Which will prove to be a bit too much horse, have to go into training w/said pro, be ridden and shown by said pro, and eventually, because little susy or her mom actually (insert shudder icon here) WANT TO RIDE THEIR OWN HORSE!!! will be sold on to someone else (at a loss, I absolutely guarantee it) and they are off with their wonderkind “trainer” to find the next “perfect” horse, which is being marketed by someone… hold on to your hats, EXACTLY like the unqualified person they have now. Showing up at a my barn with your trainer holding your hand most of the time is like having “sucker” stamped right in the middle of your forhead. I do not recommend that people who don’t know what they are doing purchase a horse without KNOWLEDGEABLE help. Notice I did not say professional help. Go to a show. find a person whose riding you admire that doesn’t have the following

1. A disgusted looking trainer standing at the ingate shouting at her.
2. Her own groom, unless it looks like it’s her sister, mother or her hapless husband.
3. Real earrings, either pearl or diamond that you can see from the other side of the ring.
   If it looks like she’s had her boots since the 70’s, she’s showing her own horse, she gets off at the ingate and walks him back to the barn after loosening his girth and doesn’t have perfect make up and nails, ask her who she’d trust to go get a horse from. or throw yourself on the mercy of an eventer. I’ve never met one that didn’t know what they were doing (law of Darwin and all that.)