Game Over

[findeight]

@KC and the Sunshine Band;2868678

This thread shows a marked lack of disrespect from the OP (and a few others) for his or her customer base.

Sorry, just can’t help self…double negative equals positive. Lack of disrespect means respect. Like I said, can’t help it.

Sad truth is the majority of ammies looking for horses on their own are not like Lucassb or Tidy Rabbit or LordHelpus. The majority overestimate their abilities and their pocketbook at best and flat out lie at worst. Sometimes in kind of a pretend game where they string some seller along for weeks.

That is not only my opinion but my experience over 40 years of horse ownership as well as some time in sales positions, including real estate.
Also the experience of my longtime friends-as in 35 years+.

Lest some say it’s a Hunter thing, one of those friends competes and breeds Snaffle Bit/Working Cow horses, another just sold a Purebred Arab(Reserve World Champ) and is between horses while a third shows pure and part Arabs and an APHA Paint(all nationally ranked). They all buy and sell either thru a trainer/agent or only to those other ammies known to them by reputation.

Over the years I have watched a parade of buyers come through whatever barn I was at in three different disciplines. More common then not to see them overhorsed right off the bat, quickly prove themselves not to be what they claim and then start to dicker on price. Not trying to generalize here but, ya know, it has been what I have seen the most.

While I never did say not to deal with those not represented by a trainer, a competent one would never have brought them to see any of these…oh…couple hundred or so sale horses over the years. Of course I am speaking of the higher ticket horses, show horses presented to those who want to show them.

I wouldn’t disqualify them without a trainer in most cases, but ASK some questions before you set any appointments.

[tidy_rabbit]

Ha ha findeight! I’ve been known to over estimate my abilities on many occassions! And not just with horses either! I’ve got the scars to prove it. Everything from skiing black diamond slopes in the sierras to hanging out with wild race car driving men! LOL.

[RockinHorse]

As I previously stated, I have successfully bought with and without a trainer. This has nothing to do with the respect I have for my trainer. If I don’t respect them , I don’t ride with them :yes:. The times I have bought without a trainer are generally more a result of circumstances like being between trainers.

I have been riding for over 30 years which is about as long as my current trainer has been alive :winkgrin:. She respects my knowledge and ability and I respect hers. When the time came for a horse search, she actually suggested I should look on my own and save on commission. I told her I would rather she did the looking since I didn’t want to deal with it

[system]

I have just read the OP, no replies.

I know how you feel. I have had horses for sale before and had people come and see, but because I couldn’t promise that the horse would do well with what they wanted to do - they didn’t buy.

I am not going to lie to anyone who comes to see my horses that are for sale. But in that aspect, I will also not guarantee anything because we all know that in the world of horses things can go wrong.

[pony4me]

I feel so sorry for my trainer tonight. She found a horse she thought would suit me well, the seller agreed to a trial, and I love the horse. The problem? Now, after riding the horse, the trainer thinks she’s too green for me. It’s nothing that time and money can’t fix, but trainer wants me on something I can take to shows sooner, and do more with now. I am hoping that the horse will settle in over the next few days and look like she did in the video. Please send positive energy our way. I want to stay on good terms with my trainer!

[Peggy]

To clarify on my post from page 1-ish.

I went out and screened horses on my own with the consent of both trainers and with a prior agreement that I would pay them to look at anything that I was considering.

Having read some of the comments here subsequent to my post I think I have a bit better understanding of where the sellers were coming from in my case. If I had showed up with a trainer I would have been OK. If I had shown up without one, but hadn’t mentioned that there may have been one in the picture, I might have been OK. But it was showing up without one and then saying that there was one that caused the concern, even tho I told them that I would take care of the trainers. Guess they didn’t believe me.

As with many aspects of horses, YMMV.

[CBoylen]

I’m a little disappointed in the comments being made about trainers and clients who choose to shop with their input. There are, of course, bad trainers out there that make horse deals difficult or monetarily shady. There are also, however, some very good reasons for choosing to shop with your trainer, and I’m surprised that they’re being overlooked in all the negativity.
-First of all, he’s YOUR trainer. I presume that means you have some reasonable faith in his integrity and ability. If it doesn’t, and you truly think he doesn’t know more than you do about horses and is out to cheat you to boot, WHY is he your trainer in the first place?
-You cannot evaluate a horse completely from the tack. Sure, you can watch it with someone else on it, but you still aren’t going to know how it looks with YOU. Maybe it’s a lovely horse, but hangs its legs straight down when presented with your favorite and often-seen distance. Maybe it does something odd with you that it didn’t do with the display rider. Or, maybe the display rider outright sucked, and you couldn’t see anything at all. There are a million things that you just can’t tell from the saddle. You need competent eyes on the ground, and they need to be eyes that are familiar with your style, aptitude, and personal habits.
-You’re bringing said horse into your trainer’s barn, where it will represent his program, and you’re expecting him to train it to do whatever it is that you expect of it. It’s extremely disrespectful not to give him a say in the matter, and possibly sets you up for disappointment in the long term if he is unable to produce your expected results from your chosen animal.
-If something does go drastically wrong with an animal with which your trainer was involved in the purchase, the majority of trainers will help make it right in some way, whether that means working out a deal to return it to the other professional, finding a situation for it, fixing it, or finding a replacement. They will take some professional responsibility for the horse, and many times can accomplish a solution that would not be feasible for the owner on their own.
-Professionals have access to more of the network than any amateur. You’d be surprised by the things your trainer knows about that perfect horse that you just saw…who wasn’t so perfect when he was in the other barn, before his name change, and prior to the program at the barn of this chemist. Your trainer has resources. Use them.
-Your professional is your agent. You can use them to deal with crazy sellers. Sellers can use them to deal with crazy buyers. This protects everyone’s sanity, as long as everyone involved is at least sane enough not to hire a crazy professional. There is also the added bonus that, if someone really irks you, on either side, “I will never deal with you again!!” carries a lot more weight from a trainer with a large barn of clients than it does from an amateur that buys or sells one horse every couple years.

Those are the reasons why I have no issue with paying a commission on a purchase, and appreciate my trainer’s input. And I’ve ridden hundreds of horses (and wrapped hundreds of legs, 2ndyrgal, although I’m not sure what that has to do with it ;)), know what I like, and know all the major players. It’s not lack of confidence or incompetence. It’s making use of the resources available and giving myself and my intended purchase the best chance of success. That’s beneficial to both the buyer and the seller.

[tidy_rabbit]

HERE HERE CBOYLEN.

When it comes time to sell my young’ns you can bet that I will inlist the help of the professionals I ride with. I have the utmost respect for them as professionals and know that they can get things done in a manner that I cannot. They have connections that I do not have and I’d be foolish not to take advantage of that. I trust their advice and input. If I didn’t, I certainly wouldn’t be riding with them.

Edited to add,

If I were looking to buy something right now to start showing in an upper level division I most certainly would seek their opinion as well. That horse I was discussing in the other thread… If I got really serious about him, I’d try to get my professional’s opinion of him in person if thier schedule allowed, if not at least a video. Based on past show horse purchases I made entirely on my own, I’d listen and heed their advice! Sometimes, you just have to learn things the hard way.

[2ndyrgal]

C Boylen, it isn’t using the “good resources” out there, I know several pros that I respect highly, that can say “might wanna take a pass on that one, nudge wink” who have staved off a mistake, as I conversly, did for them with someone that has fancy if not questionable horses for sale, that uhh, moves from state to state a bit too often. And my "wrapping legs comment, goes along with your statement that “you can’t just ride the horse, and know if it’s the one without a set of eyes on the ground.” It’s about the far too many “trainers” that somehow meet fools with money. Maybe in your world the “majority” of the trainer’s will make a bad purchase that they recommended right, but I don’t think that is reality for most people. If the horse doesn’t work out as promised, the trainer is making training money, board money, show money and we’ve all heard the stories on here about “he doesn’t seem to have any urgency to sell my horse”. We’re not talking about the top tier here, whose trainers are not on this board whining about “the first person who looked at my horse was spooked by a big old scar on his ankle”. If you have a network of true, seasoned, professional horsemen, whose brain you can pick, well good on ya, but there are many people that keep their own horses, train them, show them, etc. If I don’t respect a trainer’s opinion, I’m not going to ride with them, and if I’m in a training program with them and they don’t like my horse (for no good reason other that I’m not going to win for a year or two with him) then I’m not hanging around. I want the guy or gal that says “learn to ride what you own, you bought him”. Not the one that says “spend $$$$$ and this one will win every weekend unless you fall off”. Not my thing. All trainers are not bad, but just go to a couple of the lower level shows at the horse park and go stand near the warm up ring. In about 20 minutes, you will easily see why the words “my trainer says” make me cringe.

[monty]

well its great to use your trainer if he/she is willing to help you shop. sure pay 10 to 15% commission. but what happens is when the amateur is shopping with say 15k to 20k, i find that alot of the pro’s do not want to put the time in to find the horse. but then they also don’t want you to buy a horse without them. so its a catch 22. and the catch is that they want you to get frustrated and up your budget by 10 to 20k. this happens all the time.
they don’t have the time to search for that diamond in the rough. and its not lucrative for them to search for that cheap horse. so why not just say there is nothing out there, until the person gets frustrated and ups their budget.
you can find a nice young horse for 15 to 20k. but probably not with a good busy professional. they don’t have the time. and it is time consuming. so then the amateur goes out and finds a horse themselves and suddenly the pro doesn’t want them to buy it.
i don’t think that all trainers are greedy and they probably run a very fair business. but i find when it comes to horse shopping with the lessor budget, all kinds of problems seem to arise. and often times it ends the relationship or the person gives up and dumps out their bank account.

[PinkPonies]

[QUOTE=GWF;2867261]
We don’t do business with amateurs anymore. The only time I’ve ever had a problem selling a horse is when dealing with an ammy.[/QUOTE]

"amateurs never know how little they know
I know ammys that know more than 1/2 the professionals out there. Have we forgotten that any idiot can become a professional??

Seriously, there are wack jobs everywhere - why say it’s all amateurs? I can’t believe how much stereotyping is going on. Gimme a freakin’ break.

I’m not even going to defend myself regarding my (:eek:without a trainer present) equine purchases…

Horses are a b*&ch to sell right now. I think this is just a matter of people taking it too personally when their horses are rejected and trying to blame something. Get over it.

[taita]

Amen

[Dancetil3]

[QUOTE=CBoylen;2869020]

-Professionals have access to more of the network than any amateur. [/QUOTE]

Oh, my…I about spit up laughing when I read that one. Obviously you don’t live/work in my state. Network = clique. Trainers at the big barns only buy/sell from trainers at the other big barns. The “you scratch my back, I’ll scratch yours” world. Another reason why the h/j world in my state is a joke to me.

Here’s something to make you all laugh… “professionals” and “amateurs” alike (and I use both terms loosely, for many professionals act like “amateurs” and many “amateurs” are more professional than professionals): I am in my 40s so have been around the horse world a while…I have been an amateur all that time and I have worked with and without trainers, both dressage and h/j. I will always consider myself an amateur. However, when I renew my horsie association memberships for 2008, I will have to declare myself as a “professional.” Why? Because here and there I accept money (very little compared to “professionals” doing the same services) for giving lessons and judging schooling shows. However, just because I receive a pittance this should NOT make me a professional…it makes me a paid amateur (I’m not making my living at this; I do it for fun…the money barely covers gas and certainly not my time). This just shows how screwed up the horse world is. I’m sure when some of the so-called professionals in my local association see me listed as a “professional” they will think I’m delusional, but it is not my choice. I had a trainer last summer get totally bent out of shape when the woman whose horse I was riding thought she was going to enter me in an amateur class. After all, I had been “schooling” a friend of mine in the warmup ring (which consisted of a basic flatwork lesson). gasp I thought to myself, “Honey, if you are intimidated by ME that doesn’t say much about your own ‘professional’ ability.”

So the moral to this story? Being called a professional trainer in our non-certified horse world doesn’t mean diddly squat and certainly shouldn’t “earn” someone automatic respect.

Oh, a funny P.S…a trainer once told an amateur friend of mine that if she dared go in the show ring without a trainer, she was a gasp professional and would lose her amateur status. Dear Lord, if that makes someone a professional then we probably have only a 1% amateur population out there. LOL.

[SSFLandon]

@witherbee;2868087

I don’t think the OP thinks the outcome of with these two buyers would necessarily been different (meaning a sale) - she probably means that buyer #1 would have at least had a better understanding and more reasonalble expectations about the PPE, and buyer #2 would probably not have been there at all, as the trainer would have discussed price range with them first and discouraged shopping that far out of her range. Now we all have run into people who just won’t listen to their trainers, as well as trainers who are a discgrace to the word, but in general, I agree with her that she would have had a more educated buyer, or at least one where the trainer could have stepped in and explained things without the buyer thinking they were being hoodwinked. I HATE when we get down to negotiating the sale and the person says they don’t have the money and act like it’s up to me to figure out how to make this work for them. To me, if they don’t have the purchase price (which for my OTTBs is relatively low), then they have no business owning the horse at this time. Save up, and make sure you have enough in the bank or at least a plan for emergencies…

thank you for seeing the point I am making…simply that having a trainer to assist is helpful…you nailed it here! Why others can simply see that I don’t understand.

[SSFLandon]

@KC and the Sunshine Band;2868678

This thread shows a marked lack of disrespect from the OP (and a few others) for his or her customer base.

When shopping horses I treat the seller with respect and assume they know what they are doing until they prove otherwise. Just because a person calls him/herself a professional does not mean he or she is able to act in a professional manner.

I spend a lot of money on horses and I expect to be treated with respect by the seller, especially if they are a professional. If it were me and I were about to drop 50K (assuming that’s how much this horse is) on a horse and the seller disrespected me in any way I’d walk away and say “You’ll never see a dime from me for treating me that way.”

And I’m curious how me sharing my thoughts show disrespect for my clients?? I treat them with an extreme amount of respect. I don’t need to defend myself…they know it. I think more people here are obsessed with not paying commissions…and that is not what this thread it about. It’ simply about how much easier it is to have a trainer involved. For those of you have brought up stupid things like “judges can be am’s” well like I said before…I am not calling all am’s idiots simply stating the a vast majority are NOT knowledgeable to try horses on their own.

I think I’ll continue to lurk here but, I’m done responding…good luck to the rest of you that want to battle it out…I guess again for this reason the BB has become a bad place. There are too many people just looking to take low blows as people behind computers instead of stating important useful information. Good Luck all…and happy horse hunting.

[GreekDressageQueen]

[QUOTE=SSFLandon;2869235]
thank you for seeing the point I am making…simply that having a trainer to assist is helpful…you nailed it here! Why others can simply see that I don’t understand.[/QUOTE]

Because your original post basically implied (to me anyway) that if the buyers were more educated/realistic/experienced and had knowledgeable/good/professional trainers that 1) they wouldn’t waste your time 2) overlook “seemingly” minor flaws in your sale horses, and 3) probably buy the horses.

I read most of the posts and it seems a lot of people forget that it is the buyer’s right to walk away. The potential buyers did nothing wrong here.

[DancingQueen]

I just said in anoter thread that I, being a trainer myself, still like to have someone there to see me ride the horse and give their input. I know that is not the topic but in the same spirit I will in these instances have somebody who will speak for me and keep me sane.

As to specifics in the OP, I have nothing to offer but in general I feel that having a trainer act as agent will make the process easier on everyone. Anyone who has sold or bought a house without a realestete agent can tell you, specially if it’s not a cookie cutter deal, how much harder that is.
Having someone as a middle man who you can
A, ballpark your feelings or questions with and not let yourself completely open to the buyer/seller.
B, who speaks the professional language and can present your offer or concerns in a nonoffensive and nonemotional way.
C, who will, due to experience or connections, have an inside scoop on the horse in question and if it will and how to make it work for you and your plans with your riding career.
is oftentimes invaluable.

[Hauwse]

[QUOTE=Trixie;2868699]
This is precisely why I reminded the OP in my earlier post that this IS, in fact, a BUSINESS.

Again, I realize that horses are an “emotional” business, but they’re a business nonetheless. If a trainer cannot train anyone other than a relative, frankly, there’s something emotionally incorrect there - and they aren’t running their business like a business. There is a time when it’s correct to separate one’s business life from one’s personal life: that time is when on calls oneself a PROFESSIONAL.

While I have the UTMOST respect for my trainer and would most likely consult him if I were to purchase another horse (and I am not a pro, but I do ride other people’s horses - who I have brought to him for his guidance) - the people who refuse to do business with me without his presence are the people who are going to lose the sale. Alienating half your potential client base is akin to shooting oneself in the foot - it’s TERRIBLE business sense.

be careful what you’re saying here. I agree with what Janet said: are you SURE you mean that? ESPECIALLY in a business where one can be a professional WITHOUT QUALIFICATIONS?

Hmm, it’s a two way street, sure is…[/QUOTE]

To make it very clear, my statement regarding only training my children and relatives is a personal choice. I am more than capable of training others, but I have the luxury at this point in time to opt out because my father is a trainer and we work together. As far as the business goes it works out perfectly he is older now and no longer has the physical capability to ride regularly. He has always been an excellent trainer, 50+ years, and enjoys that aspect of the business. I however do not get the same enjoyment out of training as I do out of finding, developing, and showing horses. Not to mention I do not have the time to work with 20 horses, show, search for new prospects, and train students to boot. This is by no means an uncommon scenario.

Apparently the concept of the equine business is lost on you. Horses are not made on an assembly line and each and every one of them is a one off, and consequently cannot be sold in volume, not selling a horse to the first person that shows the money does not equate to bad business practice. In my little world the horse’s ability is the determining factor, and it is never a question if the horse will be sold. Part of the reason being that our horses are sold to people who ultimately end up marketing for us; nothing helps sales better than a horse that is successful. If I sell to ANYONE will I get the same marketing value… NO!

At the end of the day each and every horse I have ever bought has been more than a profit. My father is constantly reminding me not to fall in love with them, however I do not have to sell to anyone and if I do not think the horse will fit the person, or I do not feel that the horse will be given the proper care, training etc. I have every right, perhaps even an obligation to ensure that each horse sold is given the best chance, and opportunity possible to succeed and to live a happy healthy life, and a large part of that is making sure they get to the right person.

What ultimately is wrong is when people start treating horses like widgets and running equine business’s like they are assembly plants.

It is important especially in this business not to let your ego, and your bank account get in your way. The day you start you start worrying about perception, and making lots of money, instead of the horses you are no longer a horseman.

[SSFLandon]

@Hauwse;2869418

To make it very clear, my statement regarding only training my children and relatives is a personal choice. I am more than capable of training others, but I have the luxury at this point in time to opt out because my father is a trainer and we work together. As far as the business goes it works out perfectly he is older now and no longer has the physical capability to ride regularly. He has always been an excellent trainer, 50+ years, and enjoys that aspect of the business. I however do not get the same enjoyment out of training as I do out of finding, developing, and showing horses. Not to mention I do not have the time to work with 20 horses, show, search for new prospects, and train students to boot. This is by no means an uncommon scenario.

Apparently the concept of the equine business is lost on you. Horses are not made on an assembly line and each and every one of them is a one off, and consequently cannot be sold in volume, not selling a horse to the first person that shows the money does not equate to bad business practice. In my little world the horse’s ability is the determining factor, and it is never a question if the horse will be sold. Part of the reason being that our horses are sold to people who ultimately end up marketing for us; nothing helps sales better than a horse that is successful. If I sell to ANYONE will I get the same marketing value… NO!

At the end of the day each and every horse I have ever bought has been more than a profit. My father is constantly reminding me not to fall in love with them, however I do not have to sell to anyone and if I do not think the horse will fit the person, or I do not feel that the horse will be given the proper care, training etc. I have every right, perhaps even an obligation to ensure that each horse sold is given the best chance, and opportunity possible to succeed and to live a happy healthy life, and a large part of that is making sure they get to the right person.

What ultimately is wrong is when people start treating horses like widgets and running equine business’s like they are assembly plants.

It is important especially in this business not to let your ego, and your bank account get in your way. The day you start you start worrying about perception, and making lots of money, instead of the horses you are no longer a horseman.

OK I’m back…what does anything in you post have to do with shopping with or without trainers??? Nothing was said about money making or not. Sorry but, it’s these extra posts that really cause threads to get out of hand

Again, to all of you the point to the post is that I think (again my opinion) that having a trainer along for a purchase (assuming you have chosen a competent proven trainer) can make the transaction smoother. I am not saying that all sales happen, I am not saying that all trainers are good, I am not saying anything about making money, I am not saying anything about commissions, I am not saying that ALL am’s are incapable but, you all know the many are…etc…ARE WE GETTING the point??

You all want to make mo-hills into mountains and bring up all kinds of crap that has nothing to do with my original post which to reiterate was:

2 people look at horses with lack of knowledge, ride my horses, don’t ride well, waste the animals legs, and don’t buy… the don’t buy reasons could have been avoided if someone had helped with with the “unknowns” that their lack of horse knowledge (encompassing many things) caused AND the time that I wasted would have been used showing the horses to prepared buyers. I understand that showing a horse does not mean it is going to sell but, these are not those kind of situations. I retract any statements that I may (if I did) not let a non pro shop with me but, I will certainly quiz them in such a way (as suggested here) that I would if I were their trainer and hope they ware honest. In addition, I have no problem pulling one off a horse if I feel it is not suitable. And for those who’s egos are too big…oh well. I am a very good professional and will continue to do what is best for my clients and my business…so this selling of horses and feeling pros should attend extends to client owned horses as well.

[Janet]

@SSFLandon;2869511

OK I’m back…what does anything in you post have to do with shopping with or without trainers??? Nothing was said about money making or not. Sorry but, it’s these extra posts that really cause threads to get out of hand.

Please leave the moderation to the moderators.

One of thre truths of this forum is that, once you start a thread, you have no control of what direction it takes.