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Game Over

Hunter/Jumper
#121

Some people are capable of horse-shopping on our own… :wink: We’re not all idiots!

I am 21, have three horses and did not take a trainer to look at my mare with me when I bought her at 14. She is an awesome piece of horseflesh, I couldn’t have been happier with her then and I still feel that way about her! I would not take my trainer along to look at a horse with me now unless for some reason she was very interested in seeing that particular horse for herself. :lol: She would, of course, offer to go… she’s sweet like that.

If I were to be put off by a horse and didn’t want to buy it, or if I decided I would and then went home and had second thoughts… that would happen with or without a trainer, because when I am shopping, my opinion of the horse comes first. If I am feeling queasy about the purchase or something doesn’t seem to be on the up-and-up, I will walk away and would do that whether or not a trainer advised that I take the horse. Same story for going to look at one that the trainer wouldn’t; well, it’s my horse, and her opinion is grand, but… my thoughts and feelings on the matter come first. I wouldn’t rush off and buy a horse I didn’t like (for ANY reason) on my trainer’s recommendation.

Just because a scar isn’t enough to turn you off of a horse, doesn’t mean that it’s ridiculous that it does just that to another person. We all have different priorities, and we should be allowed that. I was with a friend horse-shopping one day and we looked at a young gelding who just didn’t light her spark… the seller clearly thought her a tire kicker and that she wasn’t seriously looking for a horse. (Because YOUR horse is always going to be THE horse on the market, right? A person would be CRAZY not to wants yours! :lol:) The next day she found one that did excite her and paid cash for him on the spot. :wink:

#122

I am going to say this in as polite a way as possible.

Trainers, please try to have a GOOD attitude, even when you deal with amateur buyers. Even if you happen to think we’re idiots (I disagree).

If someone tries a horse and passes, it’s not necessarily because they are an amatuer and therefore an idiot. It could be for lots of reasons. Which they might not choose to tell you. They might be very valid reasons. Just consider it not meant to be. The next buyer will be the right one.

When I see the attitude certain professionals have been taking on this thread, it only supports the reason why some amateur buyers might choose to work without a professional, or might pass on a horse being sold by a buyer who looks down on them.

Green money is green money. It’s a service industry. The buyer is always right. Griping doesn’t help anyone.

I hope that was polite enough!

#123

[QUOTE=SSFLandon;2869511]
OK I’m back…what does anything in you post have to do with shopping with or without trainers??? Nothing was said about money making or not. Sorry but, it’s these extra posts that really cause threads to get out of hand

Again, to all of you the point to the post is that I think (again my opinion) that having a trainer along for a purchase (assuming you have chosen a competent proven trainer) can make the transaction smoother. I am not saying that all sales happen, I am not saying that all trainers are good, I am not saying anything about making money, I am not saying anything about commissions, I am not saying that ALL am’s are incapable but, you all know the many are…etc…ARE WE GETTING the point??

You all want to make mo-hills into mountains and bring up all kinds of crap that has nothing to do with my original post which to reiterate was:

2 people look at horses with lack of knowledge, ride my horses, don’t ride well, waste the animals legs, and don’t buy… the don’t buy reasons could have been avoided if someone had helped with with the “unknowns” that their lack of horse knowledge (encompassing many things) caused AND the time that I wasted would have been used showing the horses to prepared buyers. I understand that showing a horse does not mean it is going to sell but, these are not those kind of situations. I retract any statements that I may (if I did) not let a non pro shop with me but, I will certainly quiz them in such a way (as suggested here) that I would if I were their trainer and hope they ware honest. In addition, I have no problem pulling one off a horse if I feel it is not suitable. And for those who’s egos are too big…oh well. I am a very good professional and will continue to do what is best for my clients and my business…so this selling of horses and feeling pros should attend extends to client owned horses as well.[/QUOTE]

I am sure you will see that my initial post is a direct response to your post, supporting your position.

Unfortunately I do think that the attitude towards displayed regarding trainers by some is directly realted to your post, in that, your scenario #1 is the result of someone expecting more from the PPE then they should, and a trainer would probably have explained this point to them, and helped them make a legitimate risk assesment based on the scar.

#124

I once vetted a horse and there was something funky in a front pasturn that the vet said will be an issue down the road that will require some maintenance. I told the seller I was going to pass on the horse because of that. I thought about the horse over several days and then decided to go ahead and take a chance on it. I called the seller a week later and said I’d changed my mind and I wanted the horse after all.

Trainers should remember that there are thousands of registered users on this forum and it’s entirely possible that the buyer who vetted this horse has either seen this thread or been told about it by a friend. If that buyer were me and I was about to change my mind on this horse but then heard about this thread slamming me as an AMATUER (perhaps a better word would be NOVICE) buyer. I’d walk away from the seller and her horse because of it.

#125

Horses are not made on an assembly line and each and every one of them is a one off, and consequently cannot be sold in volume, not selling a horse to the first person that shows the money does not equate to bad business practice.

I never said to sell your horse to the first person that comes along, and I never said horses were a commodity.

What I DID say was DO NOT ALIENATE YOUR CUSTOMER.

There’s a difference. I think that often, for a qualified amateur, people not returning phone calls or refusing to deal with them personally is a bit offensive, and THAT is bad business sense. I completely agree that it’s within the rights of the seller NOT to sell the horse to someone - however, one can still maintain one’s professionalism and good manners.

I think I’ll continue to lurk here but, I’m done responding…good luck to the rest of you that want to battle it out…I guess again for this reason the BB has become a bad place. There are too many people just looking to take low blows as people behind computers instead of stating important useful information. Good Luck all…and happy horse hunting.

You posted, and people responded. You didn’t like their responses, so you’re getting defensive. Personally, I think one of the BEST things about this bulletin board is that you get to hear different perspectives - and it can often really help open your eyes.

I thought people posted a lot of useful perspectives. There’s no point in getting angry and skulking off because they disagree with YOUR perspective.

#126

[QUOTE=SSFLandon;2869511]

Again, to all of you the point to the post is that I think (again my opinion) that having a trainer along for a purchase (assuming you have chosen a competent proven trainer) can make the transaction smoother. I am not saying that all sales happen, I am not saying that all trainers are good, I am not saying anything about making money, I am not saying anything about commissions, I am not saying that ALL am’s are incapable but, you all know the many are…etc…ARE WE GETTING the point??

You all want to make mo-hills into mountains and bring up all kinds of crap that has nothing to do with my original post which to reiterate was:

2 people look at horses with lack of knowledge, ride my horses, don’t ride well, waste the animals legs, and don’t buy… the don’t buy reasons could have been avoided if someone had helped with with the “unknowns” that their lack of horse knowledge (encompassing many things) caused AND the time that I wasted would have been used showing the horses to prepared buyers. I understand that showing a horse does not mean it is going to sell but, these are not those kind of situations. I retract any statements that I may (if I did) not let a non pro shop with me but, I will certainly quiz them in such a way (as suggested here) that I would if I were their trainer and hope they ware honest. In addition, I have no problem pulling one off a horse if I feel it is not suitable. And for those who’s egos are too big…oh well. I am a very good professional and will continue to do what is best for my clients and my business…so this selling of horses and feeling pros should attend extends to client owned horses as well.[/QUOTE]

This is the point of the OP. However, as a competent Amateur I read the OP and bristled. “How dare anyone tell me that I have to bring a professional with me! Tell me I’m incompetent and stupid! Well…”
I have bought and sold several horses myself, made some up, had bad matches made by trainers, made some mistakes myself. I do ride with a couple of professionals, but keep my horses at home, so I am the “professional” ie having all the control, at my barn.
When horse shopping I don’t have a trainer/professional out with me holding my hand. They do however provide feed back by watching videos or discussing what is found with the PPE. I appreciate their input and add it to the decision making process. The final say remains with me. Even if my trainers love the horse, if I don’t feel comfortable I pass.

And everyone who has ever sold a horse has horror stories of sales going sideways. Whether it is an amateur, or a professional. I have had both waste my time and string me along taking the horse off the market for ligit buyers. That is unfortunatly part of the business.
The first horse might have sold if there was a competent pro involved to qwell the fears of the ammy. It might not have.
The other sale, well sometimes people just get cold feet. “The OMG I’m going to have to write a check for how much.” That can happen in any sale and a pro can’t always stop that kind of thing.

What has inflamed everyone here is the blanket statement of the OP that all amateurs are incompetent. And all professionals are respectable and good.

#127

[QUOTE=Dancetil3;2869221]
I will always consider myself an amateur. However, when I renew my horsie association memberships for 2008, I will have to declare myself as a “professional.” Why? Because here and there I accept money (very little compared to “professionals” doing the same services) for giving lessons and judging schooling shows. However, just because I receive a pittance this should NOT make me a professional…it makes me a paid amateur (I’m not making my living at this; I do it for fun…the money barely covers gas and certainly not my time). This just shows how screwed up the horse world is. I’m sure when some of the so-called professionals in my local association see me listed as a “professional” they will think I’m delusional, but it is not my choice. I had a trainer last summer get totally bent out of shape when the woman whose horse I was riding thought she was going to enter me in an amateur class. After all, I had been “schooling” a friend of mine in the warmup ring (which consisted of a basic flatwork lesson). gasp I thought to myself, “Honey, if you are intimidated by ME that doesn’t say much about your own ‘professional’ ability.”[/QUOTE]

I’m not sure why this trips people up so much, but the distinction between amateur and professional is purely financial. It has absolutely nothing to do with ability. If you receive money in any of the ways spelled out in the rules, you are a professional. So yes, if you are getting a “pittance” for teaching, it does in fact make you a professional. And don’t be so sure that the trainer is intimidated by the thought of you being a professional; it is more likely that she is interested in the concept of all USEF members following the rules as they are spelled out.

#128

Wanting to ensure the potential buyer has the background, that the horse will be trained under the guidance of a professional, or that you plain straight are not wasting your time, IMO, is not alienating the customer, as it satisfies the sellers buyer criteria, without which, the customer is not in the sellers eyes a legitimate buyer.

I feel it is less alienating then having the potential buyer come to look at the horse and having to ask them to get off the horse, or having to explain to them that the horse is too much for them, which is very hard to do without insulting them on some level.

In the end this sales strategy may not seem logical to some, primarily the amateurs etc., based on the posts, and may not be the best strategy on every level, but we have been doing it this way for many, many years and it has not affected our business in the least. It has in fact helped. The sale horses, generally, reach their true potential, and the customer is happy, returns, and is willing to refer us to others.

#129

Wanting to ensure the potential buyer has the background, that the horse will be trained under the guidance of a professional, or that you plain straight are not wasting your time, IMO, is not alienating the customer, as it satisfies the sellers buyer criteria, without which, the customer is not in the sellers eyes a legitimate buyer.

I AGREE with this - that is absolutely fine.

What I DON’T think is acceptable is the so-called professionals who flatly REFUSE to deal with an ammy and don’t return phone calls or won’t do business at all unless a third party is involved, simply because the person in question isn’t a “professional.” Acting as though they are wasting your time right off the bat, as I said, is akin to shooting yourself in the foot.

#130

When I sell a horse privately, I won’t show it unless the buyer brings their trainer. A commission is in the sales price already. I am a commission only income person and NOT with horses. I “GET” the value of the professional trainer. When the acutal purchaser calls on their own, I ask for their trainer’s name and number. A number of reasons…first of all anyone who shows up without a trainer may be an idiot, not be able to ride and get hurt on or hurt my horse…second, if they don’t have a trainer, they aren’t going to own any of my horses…third, if the trainer can’t talk to me to get the information needed for their client then we don’t have a motivated or qualified buyer or trainer.
I agree that you are spinning your wheels with a bunch of tire kickers who haven’t a clue. Trainer calls or trainer shows up or my horse doesn’t get shown.

#131

:eek:

We are currently horse shopping for our daughter. I make all the calls and explain what we’re looking for and determine if it worth our time and the sellers time to show us the horse. IF my trainer can, she goes with us. If she cannot, I’ll videotape. We have money to spend and need a horse. I get the final decision. Not the trainer. But then, our trainer doesn’t consider herself a babysitter as some do. I highly respect my trainers opinion and would definitely want her approval but in the end, I have to pay for it and feed it. And I also have a good friend who is (gasp) AN AMATEUR and if I needed to, I would hand her a blank check and have her go buy my daughter a horse. I trust her as much as I trust our trainer. She just chooses to stay an amateur but is as knowledgable as most professionals I know.

If someone doesn’t want to show me their horse because I don’t have a trainer holding my hand, so be it. There are lots of horses out there for sale and as frustrated as I am right now with what IS out there, it will happen. I’d thank the seller for their time and be on my way. :yes:

#132

The only buyers I ever had troubles with are novice buyers. For that matter, novice sellers are just as bad.
Not all “professional” barns are on the up and up, either, so this can go both ways.

I am an ammy because I never took money for training the ponies I ride. I know what I look for and, hey, my time is precious, too, so I am not going to waste it traveling to see something unsuitable.

Amateur does not mean someone is a clueless tire kicker.

While I am sorry the OPs sales went through, I don’t know that those people bringing trainers along would have made any difference.

#133

[QUOTE=ynl063w;2869918]
And don’t be so sure that the trainer is intimidated by the thought of you being a professional; it is more likely that she is interested in the concept of all USEF members following the rules as they are spelled out.[/QUOTE]

This was not a USEF show…it was a backwaters C-rated type show. I found out later that on that particular circuit their rule book doesn’t even consider taking money (which I didn’t) as making you a professional…simply helping someone in the schooling ring makes you a professional. How ridiculous is that?? It is to laugh…

My point in that previous post (a point which you obviously missed) was that someone being classified as a “professional” means nothing more than the fact that you have taken money for your services. It doesn’t mean the person is “all-knowledgeable” as the OP seems to intimate.

#134

The ONLY way you can tell if a hrse can jump the height you want is to get on the horse and aim it at a fence of that height.

To expect a DVM to make that prediction is like asking them to play pet pyschic.

#135

Its doubful the buyer is on here and if so that is fine…it’s been several months since the no sale…It’s really not a worry to me but, thats for you concern…and again no one is slamming anyone…just stating an opinion

#136

No, I did not say that I was backing off from responding because I did not like what had to say…I was going to step back because people were being rude. I have no problem wth constructive critisism otherwise I would not have posted

#137

When I sell a horse privately, I won’t show it unless the buyer brings their trainer. A commission is in the sales price already. I am a commission only income person and NOT with horses. I “GET” the value of the professional trainer. When the acutal purchaser calls on their own, I ask for their trainer’s name and number. A number of reasons…first of all anyone who shows up without a trainer may be an idiot, not be able to ride and get hurt on or hurt my horse…second, if they don’t have a trainer, they aren’t going to own any of my horses…third, if the trainer can’t talk to me to get the information needed for their client then we don’t have a motivated or qualified buyer or trainer.

So, I have nearly 30 years experience, showed the A circuit in the NE from the time I was 6 years old, rode with one of the top BNTs in history for my junior years, has a husband who rode horses in FL and rode with another one of the leading BNTs in history, own our own place, and make an income to easily support horses and… you wouldn’t talk to me? Your loss!

#138

[QUOTE=Just My Style;2870211]
So, I have nearly 30 years experience, showed the A circuit fromj the time I was 6 years old, rode with one of the top BNTs in history for my junior years, has a husband who rode horses and rode with another one of the leading BNTs in history, own our own place, and make an income to easily support horses and… you wouldn’t talk to me? Your loss![/QUOTE]

Well said! :yes:

#139

[QUOTE=SSFLandon;2867057]
Game over…let’s move on.[/QUOTE]

Are you kidding? It’s just getting good.

:yes:

Popcorn anyone?

#140

“Game Over”

That would be a cute show name.

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