GM Clinic at Persimmon Tree Farm

[FitzE]

Question: Is holding a clinic for minors (12 and up was mentioned as the age range for the clinic) with a known banned member itself a Violation of USEF Minor Athlete Abuse Prevention Policies/Proactive Policies?

I.e., are the owners themselves now guilty of violating SS child protective policies by inviting and taking money from minors to have them exposed to a banned person? Should they not be sanctioned not just for aiding and abetting (and that reading is correct despite the pretzel logic and name calling) but also for direct violation of policies to keep minors safe?

I should think - and hope - the answer is yes.

[gottagrey]

@ladyj79

Is it his farm and is he doing course design for USEF and/or FEI affiliated events? Cause that would be a huge problem.

He and his mother train/trained out of this facility - I’m not sure about actual “ownership” i.e. who’s on the property deed and again, he’s not listed as an organizer so may didn’t have nothing to do with it.

[ghst13]

@gottagrey

He and his mother train/trained out of this facility - I’m not sure about actual “ownership” i.e. who’s on the property deed and again, he’s not listed as an organizer so may didn’t have nothing to do with it.

Carolyn Krome is listed as the POC on the information sheet and the registration sheet. I have no idea how involved or not Ken Krome may have been, but given that he is listed prominently on the farm web site with Carolyn as trainers of the farm, I think it would be a tough sell to claim he had no knowledge that the clinic was occurring.

[Bent_Hickory]

@FitzE

Question: Is holding a clinic for minors (12 and up was mentioned as the age range for the clinic) with a known banned member itself a Violation of USEF Minor Athlete Abuse Prevention Policies/Proactive Policies?

From my reading, “holding a clinic for minors … with a known banned member” without further facts is not a violation of USEF Minor Athlete Abuse Prevention. From the USEF Safe Sport Policies available at https://www.usef.org/forms-pubs/YXj0…e-sport-policy, the USEF Minor Athlete Abuse Prevention Policies address: [LIST=1]

One-on-One Interactions, including meetings and individual training sessions

Massages and Rubdowns/Athletic Training Modalities

Areas where Athletes Change

Social Media and Electronic Communications

Local Travel

Team Travel [/LIST] But again, I invite anyone to cite an actual rule to the contrary rather than rely on what you "think" or "hope" the answer is or should be.

[ladyj79]

@gottagrey

He and his mother train/trained out of this facility - I’m not sure about actual “ownership” i.e. who’s on the property deed and again, he’s not listed as an organizer so may didn’t have nothing to do with it.

If he is the owner or holds a legal lease or rental agreement on the property then it doesnt matter whether he himself organized the clinic.

or if this is a property where he runs a business from, a business which is? Directly affiliated with usef?

[LexInVA]

@gottagrey

He and his mother train/trained out of this facility - I’m not sure about actual “ownership” i.e. who’s on the property deed and again, he’s not listed as an organizer so may didn’t have nothing to do with it.

Carolyn lives on the property, according to records. He lives in a home adjacent to hers, which may or may not be part of the property and his K2 Show Stables is apparently the farm’s real business as there is no known registered business associated with the farm or his home address apart from a DVM that seems to live at the farm and Ken let the business registration for K2 lapse back in 2017, while Carolyn never legally registered Persimmon Tree Farm as a Maryland business, even though she has a MD stable license for boarding, showing, and instruction purposes. K2 Show Stables, despite being a named stable does not have a MD license to operate as a stable, so Ken’s business operates under the Persimmon Tree Farm license and at that address, essentially making them one and the same. Carolyn organizes the clinics, but both of them are “the business” according to the website and social media. Both of them handle his show stable clients and he promotes the GM Clinics through his K2 Show Stables social media pages.

[gottagrey]

@FitzE

Question: Is holding a clinic for minors (12 and up was mentioned as the age range for the clinic) with a known banned member itself a Violation of USEF Minor Athlete Abuse Prevention Policies/Proactive Policies?

I.e., are the owners themselves now guilty of violating SS child protective policies by inviting and taking money from minors to have them exposed to a banned person? Should they not be sanctioned not just for aiding and abetting (and that reading is correct despite the pretzel logic and name calling) but also for direct violation of policies to keep minors safe?

I should think - and hope - the answer is yes.

No one has provided the ages of any of the attendees. FWIW I made an inquiry to USEF to see if this clinic falls within USEF governance. Will certainly share any response I receive.

[LexInVA]

Here is a photo of Ken, what I assume is Carolyn, and Mary Cordia, taken at the 2014 GM Clinic held at Persimmon Tree Farm.

https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net…8d&oe=5F7E3961

Here’s another one, of Ken mounted up, next to the jump and GM, in a green shirt, at the same clinic.

https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net…80&oe=5F807B32

[ladyj79]

^^^the second green shirt pic is definitely a lady.

[gottagrey]

@LexInVA

Here is a photo of Ken, what I assume is Carolyn, and Mary Cordia, taken at the 2014 GM Clinic held at Persimmon Tree Farm.

https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net…8d&oe=5F7E3961

Here’s another one, of Ken mounted up, next to the jump and GM, in a green shirt, at the same clinic.

https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net…80&oe=5F807B32

I’m sure you’re aware that Morris was banned last August 2019; the GM clinic flyer on K2 FB is prior to GM being banned. and the point of posting 6 year old photos of a GM clinic at Krome’s is?

[ladyj79]

@gottagrey

I’m sure you’re aware that Morris was banned last August 2019 so the point of your posting 6 year old photos of a GM clinic at Krome’s is?

Probably to counter the argument that Ken is not at all involved with the events of his farm/business/property.

[LexInVA]

@ladyj79

^^^the second green shirt pic is definitely a lady.

Both photos are from the same clinic and posted by the same person on the same day, June 2nd 2014, according to the Facebook posts. As you can see from the first picture and others you can find on social media, Ken has a bit of a thing going on with his chest area, so the “lady” could be him and not just a rando lady at the clinic, but it may very well be a lady who had the misfortune of dressing like he did that day. My point is that he’s involved in Carolyn’s clinics and that he’s not separate from her business interests, as they are one and the same.

[gottagrey]

@LexInVA

Both photos are from the same clinic and posted by the same person on the same day, June 2nd 2014, according to the Facebook posts. As you can see from the first picture and others you can find on social media, Ken has a bit of a thing going on with his chest area, so the “lady” could be him and not just a rando lady at the clinic, but it may very well be a lady who had the misfortune of dressing like he did that day. My point is that he’s involved in Carolyn’s clinics and that he’s not separate from her business interests, as they are one and the same.

again 6 years ago… . and FWIW the “lady’s” shirt is a different shade of green, and they’re wearing different helmets

[LexInVA]

@gottagrey

I’m sure you’re aware that Morris was banned last August 2019; the GM clinic flyer on K2 FB is prior to GM being banned. and the point of posting 6 year old photos of a GM clinic at Krome’s is?

The documents on the Persimmon Tree Farm website are from this year’s clinic and were finalized and posted to the farm website in 2020, long after GM’s lifetime ban was made permanent. Ken hasn’t really done anything with the businesses beyond random Instagram and Facebook posts, for some time, so most of the posts about his business and the farm are from people who visit it for shows and clinics. The photos I posted, along with the fact that promotes the GM Clinics on social media tied to his own business demonstrate that he is very much involved in the clinics and that his “business” and Carolyn’s are co-dependent and one and the same.

[BigMama1]

@Bent Hickory

No, it is not “a clear violation” of Safe Sport Code. The language “allowing any person who has been identified as suspended or otherwise ineligible by the Center to coach or instruct Participants” does not standalone. If Safe Sport wished to make this language a standalone violation, they could have readily done so; but they did not. This language must be interpreted in the context of “commission of Prohibited Conduct.” Your interpretation strikes the “commission of Prohibited Conduct” making such language entirely irrelevant, and further, inconsistent with: 1) “aiding and abetting” in the general understanding of criminal conduct which requires an underlying crime, and 2) the material change to the language in this section of the Code between April 2019 and April 2020, which I now suggest eliminates any possibility of a standalone interpretation.

This is not some “pretzel twisted” argument; rather, it is an entirely reasonable (though clearly unpopular) interpretation of the Safe Sport Code.

While I disagree with your interpretation, it’s probably moot. Can you imagine a GM clinic where bullying didn’t take place? There’s your “prohibited conduct” right there.

[LexInVA]

@trubandloki

I wonder if it is a case of a website manager not really having any idea and just going thru and updating things?

Apparently, this guy built and maintains their current site, which is why it’s so awful and low-key. It probably wouldn’t get updated or modified unless he does it himself, at their request. They have been using him for about 8 years or so and their previous site design was more modern and appealing.

http://wonderdogprograms.com/about.html

Based on snapshots of the site, it’s not one that gets tended to frequently and the business clearly relies more on Facebook and Instagram than the website, as they can run those from phones and mobile Internet, as broadband isn’t really an option in Westminster. The Clinic information, registration, and requirement PDFs were made by Morris Krome, who resides at the farm with Carolyn and is named as an owner/operator. In comparing what’s there now with the older PDFs, those files only seem to have the dates changed every year, before they are uploaded to the website within a few months or several weeks before the next clinic, to replace the ones for the previous year’s clinic.

This was posted throughout June, July, and August by The Horse Of Delaware Valley - a page apparently affiliated with AFE too - on their behalf to promote the clinic and it’s first appearance fits well with the date of the finalized PDF files for the clinic…

https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net…ba&oe=5F80F242

This was posted earlier in August to promote the clinic…

https://www.facebook.com/theHorseofD…20006358340411

At this point, it’s pretty clear that they had the intention of putting on a clinic and took steps to make it happen.

[Bent_Hickory]

@BigMama1

While I disagree with your interpretation, it’s probably moot. Can you imagine a GM clinic where bullying didn’t take place? There’s your “prohibited conduct” right there.

Thankfully, even with Safe Sport, legal culpability requires more evidence than “imagination.”

[ladyj79]

@Bent Hickory

Thankfully, even with Safe Sport, legal culpability requires more evidence than “imagination.”

But in this instance he’s already received a lifetime ban, so it really doesn’t matter what he did at this clinic.

because he has been banned from coaching USEF membership. Not the team, under the banners of international competition, the membership. And members, coaches, the community are prohibited from training with him.

[Bent_Hickory]

@ladyj79

And members, coaches, the community are prohibited from training with him.

Identify the SafeSport or USEF rules that support this.

[Bent_Hickory]

@ladyj79

because he has been banned from coaching USEF membership.

As I understand it, a “banned person” receives the sanction of “permanent ineligibility” which according to SafeSport at XIII.A. means:

Permanent ineligibility to participate, in any capacity, in any program, activity, Event, or competition sponsored by, organized by, or under the auspices of the USOPC, any NGB, any LAO, and/or any HPMO, or at a facility under the jurisdiction of the same.

This language delineates the scope of a “ban.” Please clarify how the scope of such a ban prohibits “coaching USEF membership.”