Not for nothing but the fact that KK has been involved in GM clinics in the past is not really dispositive of his role in any 2020 clinic. That’s really a stretch
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This article seems to be taking the broader interpretation.
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Is it that, you are encouraging prohibited conduct (aiding and abetting) when you place usef members in contact with the banned individual.? Is it Like a presumption, this person is a known xxx and you knowingly put usef members in contact with the banned individual known for doing xxx therefore you are encourage (a&a) prohibited conduct whether or not the prohited conduct occurrs? Almost like a strict liability thing, or gross negligence standard_ any fool should know standard?
in an extreme case, if j epstein was a (banned) usef member and you help j epstein host a party for (usef member)14 year old girls you are a& a whether or not the conduct actually occurs, as you are setting up a situation where it could (ie encouraging it to) occur ?
(Edited to add a stupider analogy> i have a dog that bites children (made up prohibited conduct), parents know the dog bites children , parents allow me to put the dog in the room with their children, parents are encouraging (that is A&A in ) the prohihited activity = dog biting children, even if it does not occur.)
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Oh my my stupid analogies have been flagged as spam…
From Black’s Law Dictionary (https://thelawdictionary.org/aid-and-abet/) – I recognize that this is not controlling law on its face; nonetheless it is useful for the discussion:
What is AID AND ABET?
In criminal law. That kind of connection with the commission of a crime which, at common law, rendered the person guilty as a principal in the second degree. It consisted in being present at the time and place, and doing some act to render aid to the actual perpetrator of the crime, though without taking a direct share in its commission. See 4 Bl. Comm. 34; Peo ple v. Dole, 122 Cal. 486, 55 Pac. 5S1, 68 Am. St. Rep. 50; State v. Tally, 102 Ala. 25, 15 South. 722; State v. Jones, 115 Iowa, 113, 88 N. W. 196; State v. Cox, 65 Mo. 29, 33.
With regard to your last dog analogy, “If the child wasn’t bit, you must acquit.”
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My point being that perhaps the language could be read that you are encouraging ( A&A) prohibited conduct by arranging for usef members to be in contact with person banned for prohibited conduct xxx, whether or not it occurs- you are facilitating an environment where it could occur hence encouraging it.
Double post
First- I do not think that the aiding and abetting applies to not being able to lesson/train/clinic. My understanding is that it is in reference to ( a few things) but in this case a&a of hiding of the infraction (infraction as determined by SS) or a&a of having an person who has been permanently suspended (or just suspended) in the training, coaching etc AT A FEDERATION EVENT.
I do not think it applies to non-sanctioned USEF events such as clinics, I have to find the wording as I have seen it recently. When I find it- I’ll post it.
So even if you are “a participant” such as defined, if you are not using GM to train or coach AT THE EVENT, you can do so.
GR13- 1303 Safe Sport Requirements The Federation Safe Sport Policy defines a “Federation Participant” as any Federation member, or non-member, who participates in or attends a Federation Licensed Competition or sanctioned event.
GR7; PERMANENT INELIGIBILITY from Federation membership and all Federation related activities, including a prohibition from taking any part whatsoever in any Competition licensed or endorsed by the Federation and exclusion from all competition grounds during Competitions licensed or endorsed by the Federation in any capacity, including as an exhibitor, participant or spectator. Additionally, a permanently ineligible person is prohibited from attending, observing, or participating in any event, forum, meeting, program, clinic, task force, or committee of the Federation, sponsored by or conducted by the Federation, or held in connection with the Federation and any of its activities.
I think if the clinic went forward they did a good job of keeping it silent.
This post is not in support of BH- who I think has grotesquely defended GM and disparaged SS in the past.
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I have never, ever defended GM. I do, however, regularly object to governmental/USEF over-reach and in general, stupid things said on CoTH.
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Fair enough and I will edit.
I dont think it was to make a legal claim, I think it was again, to counter the claim that this dude is like, never even on that property so has no clue what’s going on there.
lex seems to offer that the pics are from the recent clinic, ok
I dont think it was to make a legal claim, I think it was again, to counter the claim that this dude is like, never even on that property so has no clue what’s going on there.
lex seems to offer that the pics are from the recent clinic, ok, but I think mainly it was to point out that yeah this dude isnt an absentee landlord with regards the farm and events on the farm, including gm events on the farm that have occurred previously.
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Maybe you should go ask USEF for clarification yourself. Multiple people have posted the same rules that have been interpreted to mean a banned person cannot coach an active member in any capacity. This same interpretation was included in numerous articles when the permanent ban was locked in place for GM. If you don’t agree with the interpretation, seek clarification from the governing body.
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I just think it’s a heck of a stretch. 2014 was 6 years ago. I was doing things 6 years ago that I no longer do. For all I know KK was instrumental in hosting this clinic but I think it’s weak sauce to rely on photos from him at a clinic in 2014 to suggest that. He could not have been an absentee landlord in 2014 and now he is.
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I don’t agree with the interpretation (but I would agree with it wholeheartedly if it was accurate). I have emailed to ask for clarification. I do believe that it is sanctioned and associated events in which they can’t teach/train/whatever members or participants only- not outside non-sanctioned.
Just showing how until we get clarification, multiple people can read the same thing and interpret in various ways.
In this, I hope to be proved wrong.
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I certainly hope this lively debate will inspire USEF and its affiliates to issue a joint statement of clarification on the scope of SafeSport bans.
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This is strange to me I rode with the Krome’s for many, many years and they were amazing and I was so successful with them- they are amazing trainers- I find it hard to believe they would hold a GM clinic at this point? I don’t know what to say since I don’t ride there anymore but it is strange more than anything that they would do this - you know? I understand people are saying they are disappointed, angry, mad, sad, etc- but I can’t get past the point of it doesn’t make sense at all for them to do this -if that makes sense to people.
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Like Diane Carney and others who “stand with George” and want to get him back in the business, the Kromes have been business partners with George Morris and both have trained with him and held clinics for many years. In their case, maybe as far back as 30-40 years, but I can’t say for sure. Their old website from nearly 18 years ago touted a long-time affiliation with him and a quote that praises their horsemanship, management, and instruction, so they have clearly been working alongside him for a very long time.
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But who’s been living under a rock to know GM is banned for atrocities against minors…and the parents have signed up their 12yr olds? That to me is the bigger question!
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Since the ban, a large consensus among GM supporters has been that the matter never went to court, so there’s no real problem with him as far as they are concerned. Another feeling on the matter is that because he’s (incorrectly) perceived as a Homosexual, he won’t be any threat to the multitude of young females who show up for his clinics. In reality, he is Bisexual, by his own admission, but has a clear preference for men over women, and has displayed the stereotypical “Gay Man” traits and persona that people associate with such individuals and he associated heavily with other men who were known to be Homosexual or Bisexual, so he’s been associated with being Homosexual for a long time. Then there are those who simply don’t care.
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